Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[Ben W]

My take on all of this... Tesla currently has two types of signage at their supercharging stalls (sorry for the poor quality, grabbed these off the net):

If the superchargers become too overcrowded due to excessive local charging, perhaps Tesla could add a third signage option to some of the stalls:

"Tesla Roadtrip Charging Only (during peak hours)"

This would preserve the "unlimited" promise to original owners, while also making it clear that roadtrips are the primary purpose of the supercharging network, and it would give Tesla some teeth if owners continue to locally charge in these stalls.

I once ran into an owner at the Hawthorne supercharger who sat there for an hour every night trickle-charging his Model S to 100%, then driving 2 miles to his home (which had an outlet) and parking overnight. Tesla would not be at all out of line to email such an owner to remind them of the charging etiquette and intended Supercharger purpose, as well as give them a little battery health instruction. That's not to say they should actively impose sanctions though; that's a tricky line to cross.

Personally, after 28k miles of driving my S, I've supercharged probably 6000 miles of that; 4000 for actual roadtrips, and 2000 locally when convenient. (My place in LA has a 110v plug, so when the battery gets low it's useful to get a quick SC boost.) And I try to be as respectful as possible when charging, whether it's roadtrips or locally.

 

[deonb]

. i don't agree that was Tesla's message before this latest episode.

If you are going to continue to interpret Tesla's marketing message out of context and still hold it up as legally binding, why stop at free electricity? Part of the message they used to have on their site was:

"Road trippers can stop for a quick meal and have their Model S charged when they’re done."

I stopped at the SpringField SuperCharger at 3am once and the restaurant was closed, so I wasn't able to do that. Talk about misleading marketing! I guess I should contact my lawyer about Tesla not fulfilling their contractual obligations. I'm sure this happened to many people in fact. Class Action anyone?

For that matter... Why did I pay for those meals?? It's says "free unlimited" and Tesla says I can eat while it was charging, so why did it cost me money? I guess I should tack that on to the lawsuit as well.

[edit] just to be absolutely clear, the free meals only applies to Road trippers and not local users...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You've read this thread, right? Crazy is alive and well.

Sure, I've seen plenty of crazy fans...

And Bonnie's analogy referenced an entirely different point; the ability of people to interpret for their sole, selfish benefit and damn everything and everybody else.

Fair enough, that could be said. However: It is so excessive as an analogue, I fear it invalidates itself in this context. A person interpreting something for their selfish benefit when it comes to a volunteer offering help vs. a company selling a service are two vastly different things.

A person asking bonnie to volunteer to charge them in the middle of the night is hardly the same kind of crazy as someone assuming Tesla sold them permission to charge at any Superchargers as often as they like. Even if the latter group were mistaken, in reality it is a vastly smaller case of lack of courtesy (and I disagree they are mistaken).

IF?! one believes Tesla meant 'for long distance travel', after having been shown written and video proof... See, told you crazy was alive and well.

There is a disagreement on that. I think it is a legitimate disagreement and so do many people. I acknowledge many people also feel as you do, that is fine, that's the disagreement. In my view Tesla wasn't promoting any clear limitation, their sales people weren't promoting any clear limitation, their expansion into cities and taxi services and whatnot were not promoting a clear limitation until now.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are going to continue to interpret Tesla's marketing message out of context and still hold it up as legally binding, why stop at free electricity? Part of the message they used to have on their site was:

"Road trippers can stop for a quick meal and have their Model S charged when they’re done."

I stopped at the SpringField SuperCharger at 3am once and the restaurant was closed, so I wasn't able to do that. Talk about misleading marketing! I guess I should contact my lawyer about Tesla not fulfilling their contractual obligations. I'm sure this happened to many people in fact. Class Action anyone?

For that matter... Why did I pay for those meals?? It's says "free unlimited" and Tesla says I can eat while it was charging, so why did it cost me money? I guess I should tack that on to the lawsuit as well.

Yeah, I agree with Krugerrand on the crazy in this thread.

Come on.

My take on the matter is not about any single web page either. It is my perception, from Tesla's marketing and that of their sales people, representatives etc., that free and unlimited Supercharging were marketed as a general thing. No limits were expressed (except don't park there, unless designated as parking). For marketing purposes. Even if there were also other intents for building the network - and that long-distance driving certainly was a big (but not only) part of it.

 

[deonb]

It is my perception, from Tesla's marketing and that of their sales people, representatives etc., that free and unlimited Supercharging were marketed as a general thing.

I have asked twice before, but will ask again. Cite your sources please. Name one piece of marketing material that talks about SuperCharging without talking about road trips. If you got that impression from a salesperson in a store - names and date please.

"Lack of enforcement" is not a sufficient proof of policy. If that was they case, I'm living on an Autobahn instead of in a 35 mph zone.

 

[dsm363]

Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving...

They entire point of the network from the beginning was to enable long distance travel. That is without question. The fact that California is so densely populated means many locations will be near to owners who can choose to take advantage of the free and unlimited nature of the network. That doesn't mean Tesla encouraged it. Sure, it was never strictly forbidden but that still doesn't make the people who can charge at home but choose to never do so one step over what most would consider reasonable. I paid for the network too since you keep bringing the cost up.

 

[scaesare]

My take on the matter is not about any single web page either.

I'm not sure how it could be, given multiple web pages, video clips, graphic depictions, videos, etc... presented to you in this thread.

It is my perception...

Bingo!

 

[Krugerrand]

Sure, I've seen plenty of crazy fans...

I made no reference to 'fans', OR 'non-fans' for that matter. As someone (you) who takes being specific to a whole other level, extend me the courtesy of not purposely 'muddying' (it's the nicest word I could come up with in the moment) the waters.

Fair enough, that could be said.

No it could not be said, it WAS said. And I know for a fact that's exactly the point Bonnie was making.

However: It is so excessive as an analogue, I fear it invalidates itself in this context.

Don't be obtuse. Seriously. I know you're an intelligent person, so I know you know exactly why someone (Bonnie in this case) would use an over-the-top analogy to make a point, which in no way invalidates the context. If anything, it highlights the context.

There is a disagreement on that. I think it is a legitimate disagreement and so do many people.

No, a handful of people disagree and believe as you. There's a poll now and it's quite clear which side of the fence the majority stand on.

Come on.

That wasn't crazy, that was sarcasm. I know you know the difference.

 

[dhanson865]

Over two hundred posts, on what was just a simple statement that Tesla would be reaching out to a small handful of people abusing the system. Nothing about punishment, nothing about throttling, nothing about anything except a simple human-to-human touch point, reminding people we're all using this resource. And likely that will solve the problem.

Instead we're getting algorithms on how they should determine, different formulas on how to respond, musings on future customers being cut back, people worried they won't be able to charge, others threatening to sue because it's their RIGHT, etc.

We don't go overboard here. We jump the damn shark.

(It's only going to get worse until the X is delivered.)

Pot, kettle, black.

 

[bonnie]

Pot, kettle, black.

I'll admit I'm a little tired this evening, but this response is going right by me. Totally.

If you're referring to my joke about clarifying my position for people who are welcome to charge here anytime, lighten up. If you didn't see the humor there, then you're taking a car forum far too seriously.

 

[dhanson865]

I'll admit I'm a little tired this evening, but this response is going right by me. Totally.

Over two hundred posts

We don't go overboard here. We jump the damn shark.

I'm saying you are talking about others in a way that applies to yourself. You have posted way too many negative statements in this thread. I would have moved or deleted several of your posts if I were moderator.

The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dsm363]

I'm saying you are talking about others in a way that applies to yourself. You have posted way too many negative statements in this thread. I would have moved or deleted several of your posts if I were moderator.

The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bonnie doesn't own a car that can Supercharge yet first of all. Secondly nothing she has posted warrants being moved and we rarely delete posts.

 

[bonnie]

I'm saying you are talking about others in a way that applies to yourself. You have posted way too many negative statements in this thread. I would have moved or deleted several of your posts if I were moderator.

The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hahaha. I know what it means for the pot to call the kettle black. Cute.

But I am a little confused that you're singling me out. Seriously. I've posted facts about how the supercharger has been promoted since the beginning, which have been ignored. I've never once attacked a single person in this thread (though I could point out some very snarky comments directed squarely at me). I've had my opinion dismissed simply as a fan, without acknowledging that I've watched how this has been marketed since the beginning.

If by 'way too many negative comments', you mean 'we don't go overboard here, we jump the damn shark' (since that was what you picked out to quote), I'll stand by that. Sorry if that bothers you - this IS a car forum. That comment means we're way overanalyzing something that was quite simple & that's something this forum does a LOT. Or perhaps you mean I speak up with my opinion and that uncomfortable opinion differs from yours?

Hope when you read this all in the light of day, you might see it all a bit differently. This is just a car forum. No need to take it so personally.

 

[scaesare]

No, a handful of people disagree and believe as you. There's a poll now and it's quite clear which side of the fence the majority stand on.

AnxietyRanger, the above post form Krugerrand was in reply to you. I believe the poll he's referencing may be mine. (TexasEV has a similar one, with similar numbers). Alomost 80 people have voted since I posted it this morning.

In that poll, 1 out of 10 people didn't grasp Tesla's intent for Superchargers to be used to primarily support long distance travel. That means 9 out of 10, an overwhelming majority, got that message all along.

Now I give you, or anybody else, the benefit of the doubt... we can all misconstrue something. But, when you are one of 10 people in a room, all reading the same sign, and the other 9 people all get the intended meaning, and you don't, then you have to at least consider the fact that you were the one with the misunderstanding of what was clear to everybody else.

Now raise that sampling size by a factor of 8, yet the ratio stays the same, then you really have some evidence that the issue is not primarily in the message, but rather with how you interpreted it.

So here's where the inclination to extend that benefit of the doubt stops: When subsequently faced with abundant evidence that you were in a significant minority group who misunderstood the message, you still insist your viewpoint is the correct one, the vast majority of your peers are incorrect, and the message was faulty.

That starts to become hubris.

This is compounded when significant factual evidence (web pages, videos, archives demonstrating consistent messaging over time, a history of public quote, etc...) is presented, and then seemingly disregarded in context.

At some point one has to consider saying "Whoops, my bad. I didn't get it.". There's nothing wrong with that, we've all had it happen to us. You'd be more respected for owning it.

 

[napabill]

I'm saying you are talking about others in a way that applies to yourself. You have posted way too many negative statements in this thread. I would have moved or deleted several of your posts if I were moderator.

The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You've picked a fight with the wrong d*** person! She's got a lot of very large folks waiting to meet you in person:wink:. She ain't called the Queen by accident.

Oh, and I should mention, a more reasonable voice has never been heard on this forum. For many years. So cool it, Mister Kettle.

 

[dsm363]

This is just a general comment about arguing on the internet and always thought this was funny:

 

[Tedkidd]

Another way to look at it - as early adopters isn't it in EV owner's interest to think and act selflessly rather than self-entitled?

The financial burden on Tesla from "trickle charging on a Supercharger when (you) have charging at home" may be small, but if others follow that example it won't take long for the Supercharger experience to start receiving negative social commentary.

As X, then 3 come on line these behaviors will get significantly magnified, and unintended consequences of turning off early majority as we try to get EV adoption to jump the chasm could slow or stall that transition. Shouldn't we avoid creating adoption slowing friction wherever possible?

What truly baffles me is the idea someone who can afford an $80,000 car, and has cut their fillup cost from $80 to $8, is obsessively attempting to pinch that last $8. Sure, you may be legally entitled to do this, but how can you not see the broader picture?

Let's do everything we can to accelerate EV adoption. To me that means doing whatever we can to make other EVers experiences as positive as possible, AND do things that helps Tesla succeed.

 

[stopcrazypp]

AnxietyRanger, the above post form Krugerrand was in reply to you. I believe the poll he's referencing may be mine. (TexasEV has a similar one, with similar numbers). Alomost 80 people have voted since I posted it this morning.

Thanks for posting this poll. I googled around and it seems the threshold used for implied falsehood cases is above 20-25%. 15-20% allows for use as supporting evidence. Under 10% actually the survey can be used by defendant to denote unlikeliness of implied falsehood. There still needs to be more samples, but the early results seem to show it is unlikely to be confusion about supercharging being primarily for long distance driving. It doesn't bode well for people pounding the lawsuit drum.

And for those repeating the $2000 number (which as a reminder only applied to the 60kWh and now is not required on the 70D), keep in mind the hardware and software isn't free. And the wording on the order page shows you are paying the money for activation of that hardware/software, not a prepaid subscription agreement to supercharging service. I don't remember the exact number, but according to their SEC filings only somewhere around $500 per car is going toward the supercharger network.

 

[lolachampcar]

Teddkidd,
Money and clear vision are not close coupled items

 

[gnxs]

Very few people (if anybody) on either side of this discussion would argue against the fact that the SC Network was MEANT FOR long-distance travel. The argument arises when it's stated that the SC Network is LIMITED TO long distance travel.

 

[lolachampcar]

Let's say I get about 3 miles per KWHr of charge. That is about four cents per mile or $4K/100,000 miles of driving. Does anyone here think Tesla "sells" SC capability for $2,500 so you can use $4K in power?

Go ahead and tell yourself that they did not say I couldn't do it. You are a special person and special people are entitled to something for nothing. And when the special people gain critical mass...........

Some people are simply too short sighted to see they are doing a disservice to themselves as well as those around them.