Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[FlasherZ]

I'll throw out my own parsing of Tesla's words:
When Tesla said free for life, they didn't say what life... my interpretation is that it meant the life of a 21" rear tire on a P85+. As a result, they're free to change anything they want past 3,500 miles.

That's about as good as the other interpretations I'm reading in this thread, trying to justify "give me free stuff" positions.

 

[scaesare]

You aren't seriously suggesting a poll on TMC is indicative of wider public - especially one conducted after Elon's words had been dissected here?

I'm willing to bet a poll of 160+ folks with a 9:1 ratio supporting one result is far more indicative than a single's person's assertion otherwise.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'll throw out my own parsing of Tesla's words:
When Tesla said free for life, they didn't say what life... my interpretation is that it meant the life of a 21" rear tire on a P85+. As a result, they're free to change anything they want past 3,500 miles.

That's about as good as the other interpretations I'm reading in this thread, trying to justify "give me free stuff" positions.

They said life of the car.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

They said life of the car.

They said, and continue to say, the life of the Model S.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You aren't seriously suggesting a poll on TMC is indicative of wider public - especially one conducted after Elon's words had been dissected here?

I'm willing to bet a poll of 160+ folks with a 9:1 ratio supporting one result is far more indicative than a single's person's assertion otherwise.

I wish you didn't use words like "single's person's assertion". I alone have a few dozen reputation points from people who say they agree with me on this. Those people didn't get their perception from nothing. You know there are more people who view the topic like I do than that. Others have just tired of arguing with a stone wall, or so some of them say.

Unfortunately even that poll is after the fact. It was also a public poll, so peer-pressure was allowed to affect answers. Try doing that at an election. It doesn't reliably represent how that same group of people had perceived the marketing prior to Elon Musk's clarifying (or changing, depending on how one sees it) message being heard and dissected here. Also, the enthusiast nature of this place means we hardly get a layperson's view from an unscientific poll here anyway.

But if it helps, I have no problem conceding I assume a majority of active TMC posters agree with you. My original summary even said as much. That doesn't mean a significant portion of Tesla owners couldn't disagree, though.

Apparently it is hard to agree there is simply a genuine disagreement on how Tesla marketed the Superchargers and we lack data to say who is right, objectively speaking. Personally I'd be perfectly willing to settle with that, but there seems to be a need to diminish the other side to "climate change deniers" or something and so the merry-go-round goes round and round.

I know, I know, don't give in an inch.

 

[Tedkidd]

It's not just the electricity cost (which I reverse engineered out to be $500 a car) but the limited resource that is a Supercharger. Congestion is the last thing Tesla need right now.

Now here O2 did an unlimited data plan, and in the end they couldn't unwind their position, so just sat it out and waited for all those contracts to expire. But at one point 0.1% of the users were using 36% of the bandwidth!

Ultimately in my view it's about "unsetting" expectations, whether or not they were intend that way, or simply taken to extremis or out of context. Certainly every press article re-iterates this "free 'fuel' for life" meme, and Tesla have never done anything to stop them

One thing is for sure it will have a big impact on Taxi sales!

^^^^^This

I suspect that if the "limited resource that is a Supercharger" becomes a problem, then Tesla will begin "unsetting expectations" and pointing to the abuse by the "0.1%" "...sending their wives out to charge at the SC because "I paid for it" :frown:" as the cause.

I just hope EV's reach critical mass on the adoption curve (part way into Early Majority) before we lose free Supercharging.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Can you quote the posts that called for a lifetime ban?

Well, I guess Canucks' was the most extreme one. Considering that we already have a precedent of Tesla refusing to sell more vehicles to one disgruntled customer, maybe it wasn't such a good suggestion:

Once again, it's the small few that ruin things for the vast majority. In addition to throttling these people down, I would like to see Tesla refusing to sell them vehicles in the future. None of this polite note stuff for me.

For the rest of the conversation, here is one person discussing how sales people had assured him and how Tesla's assistance staff commented on the Supercharger policy - note, this owner was not in London, nor was he discussing long-distance needs. But most notable is Tesla's own assistance number's interpretation of Elon Musk's comment - it tells of then-current-policy and it didn't use to be against local charging. Maybe it has slightly, softly changed now.

I just saw this thread tonight and became quite nervous because I am one of those people that use superchargers very frequently. I live in downtown Los Angeles in an apartment building where installing my own charger is not permitted. When I purchased my Model S and informed them of my living situation, I was assured that the superchargers were free for life and I can use them whenever. I called Tesla's roadside/technical assistance number tonight and spoke with a rep. Although they were aware of Elon's comment, they have not been told of any official change in policy or what that comment explicitly means. They were, however, pretty sure that it is directed towards owners leaving their vehicle connected to the charging stall for extended periods of time after charging was complete rather than being directed to locals that use the superchargers frequently.

Again, my argument is not with Tesla - although I think they have been a little naughty with quietly tuning the message - I doubt they will enforce anything bait-and-switchy. (Ranger service switcharoo may be a different story, though.) The debate is in this thread, not with Tesla, whom I expect to do and keep doing the right thing regarding Supercharging on Model S. They are free to change the terms to anything for future models and sales, of course.

 

[scaesare]

I know, I know, don't give in an inch.

It's not that. It's that you ignore fact.

FACT: You said, "For some reason I think the wider public may have an issue if one needs litmus tests to understand Tesla's marketing 'correctly'"

Therefore YOU are asserting what YOU think the WIDER PUBLIC has an issue with litmus tests.

So yes. It's your assertion.

 

[smac]

Coming back to my original assertion that basically, rightly or wrongly, expectations of service have been set too high. So even if Elon writes an educational letter it will likely have very little impact.

O2 tried exactly the same "educational" approach, and ultimately it failed

O2 signals end of unlimited data tariffs for iPhone customers | Technology | The Guardian

This is just an example.

Personally, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt (on a smaller but still large enough scale) where what you meant to happen, isn't what customers were expecting (not all but even a statistically significant portion). I've never done this intentionally, and sometimes it's down to over eager sales people, sometimes the offer wasn't clear, sometimes it was too complicated.

Whatever the root cause it is very hard to unwind the position and retain customer loyalty.

I do watch (and hope to learn actually!) how this gets ultimately resolved.

 

[TexasEV]

Well, I guess Canucks' was the most extreme one. Considering that we already have a precedent of Tesla refusing to sell more vehicles to one disgruntled customer, maybe it wasn't such a good suggestion:



For the rest of the conversation, here is one person discussing how sales people had assured him and how Tesla's assistance staff commented on the Supercharger policy - note, this owner was not in London, nor was he discussing long-distance needs. But most notable is Tesla's own assistance number's interpretation of Elon Musk's comment - it tells of then-current-policy and it didn't use to be against local charging. Maybe it has slightly, softly changed now.



Again, my argument is not with Tesla - although I think they have been a little naughty with quietly tuning the message - I doubt they will enforce anything bait-and-switchy. (Ranger service switcharoo may be a different story, though.) The debate is in this thread, not with Tesla, whom I expect to do and keep doing the right thing regarding Supercharging on Model S. They are free to change the terms to anything for future models and sales, of course.

No one on this forum has suggested that the circumstance you quoted (living in an apartment without access to home charging) would be an abuse of local charging. No one here thinks that is what Elon was referring to, or is unethical, or immoral, or wrong in any way. I think everyone who disagrees with you has made clear their opposition is to owners who use local supercharging as their primary source of charging even though they could charge at home, not those who can't charge at home.

 

[Danal]

89 pages of debate about the meaning of words on web pages, how different people interpret them, and what changed when. And still no one on the "...you should know better..." side has addressed the fact that I was told by Tesla store personnel, and watched them tell other people "When you buy the car, you also buy the entire supercharger network, use it as much as you like". And, yes, I heard them specifically asked: "So, if I lived near one, I wouldn't need a home charger?" and answer "You could go either way, it is more convenient to have one at home, but you don't need one, you could just SC forever." And similar. It has been over a year, so I do not remember the exact wording, so please don't nit pick these phrases for an additional 89 pages. It has been a year; nonetheless, the discussions were clear. Even questions like "Really, where will they be building SCs? I live near such and such". Absolutely no doubt of what was conveyed.

The absolute statements by authorized company representatives who worked in the store, and/or came to my workplace to sell the car, were incredibly clear. The folks in this thread on the "you are mis-interpreting the words" side of this discussion are dismissing the physical reality of what I (and many others) experienced. Not single words or phrases to nit-pick; absolutely transparent communications. Overwhelmingly crystalline. Downright pellucid.



I don't participate in this thread discussion, because it is impossible to discuss something when there is no agreement on the starting facts. I do post every so often so that bystanders reading the thread will be reminded that there indeed are facts, not interpretations or semantic debates, regarding Tesla's commitments in the pre-sales environment.

 

[stopcrazypp]

89 pages of debate about the meaning of words on web pages, how different people interpret them, and what changed when. And still no one on the "...you should know better..." side has addressed the fact that I was told by Tesla store personnel, and watched them tell other people "When you buy the car, you also buy the entire supercharger network, use it as much as you like". And, yes, I heard them specifically asked: "So, if I lived near one, I wouldn't need a home charger?" and answer "You could go either way, it is more convenient to have one at home, but you don't need one, you could just SC forever." And similar. It has been over a year, so I do not remember the exact wording, so please don't nit pick these phrases for an additional 89 pages. It has been a year; nonetheless, the discussions were clear. Even questions like "Really, where will they be building SCs? I live near such and such". Absolutely no doubt of what was conveyed.

You are the first person on this thread to say this has occurred (a sales rep suggesting using supercharger even when you have a home charging option). The other examples are people who don't have home charging (and there is agreement here that this is okay by Tesla policy so far).
Tesla store employees may not be 100% reliable on Tesla policy (plenty of examples on the forum of them giving bad information or spreading false rumors), but it's a fair point given they are Tesla employees.

On the other hand, that is one data point (and you are relying on memory of a visit a year ago). I'm pretty sure the OP in the other thread did not hear the same thing from sales reps. The long distance poll doesn't address this directly, but perhaps we need another one that asked directly if sales reps have ever suggested something similar to them.

 

[dsm363]

89 pages of debate about the meaning of words on web pages, how different people interpret them, and what changed when. And still no one on the "...you should know better..." side has addressed the fact that I was told by Tesla store personnel, and watched them tell other people "When you buy the car, you also buy the entire supercharger network, use it as much as you like". And, yes, I heard them specifically asked: "So, if I lived near one, I wouldn't need a home charger?" and answer "You could go either way, it is more convenient to have one at home, but you don't need one, you could just SC forever." And similar. It has been over a year, so I do not remember the exact wording, so please don't nit pick these phrases for an additional 89 pages. It has been a year; nonetheless, the discussions were clear. Even questions like "Really, where will they be building SCs? I live near such and such". Absolutely no doubt of what was conveyed.

The absolute statements by authorized company representatives who worked in the store, and/or came to my workplace to sell the car, were incredibly clear. The folks in this thread on the "you are mis-interpreting the words" side of this discussion are dismissing the physical reality of what I (and many others) experienced. Not single words or phrases to nit-pick; absolutely transparent communications. Overwhelmingly crystalline. Downright pellucid.



I don't participate in this thread discussion, because it is impossible to discuss something when there is no agreement on the starting facts. I do post every so often so that bystanders reading the thread will be reminded that there indeed are facts, not interpretations or semantic debates, regarding Tesla's commitments in the pre-sales environment.

Also the first example I've heard of. So you told them you have a home with a garage and could install charging but asked them if you could exclusively use the Supercharging network to save money and the Tesla employee so go for it? That employee probably is saying something differently now as that's not what most people have heard them say before. They've always pushed the connivence of home charging and the freedom of the unlimited and free Supercharging network to increase your mobility and make travel easier or buying the car easier if you have little to no charging at home.

 

[deonb]

Same here, Danal, first confirmed first-hand account I've heard off that's definitely from sales. Thanks for sharing!

When you say you've also observed other salespeople saying that as well, was that at the same showroom or a different one?

 

[Danal]

The clearest interactions were at a "marketing to a company" event. About 2000 people in a headquarters building, Tesla brought several cars and parked them up on the pedestrian areas right outside the front entrance. More than a year ago or so, and LOTS of conversations explaining things about the car, about the range, about charging, about superchargers, about the internet connection, even the classic "can you drive in the rain?" question, and many more. At that time, in the DFW area, most people had never seen a Tesla, and had no idea about range, or charging or anything.

As I've stated multiple times, I do not live near a supercharger, and it is very unlikely that one will be built near me.

At the same time, among the folks who work in the building and were attracted to that event, there are people who live in a lot of different places. We are on the edge of the developed metroplex and more than a few people live in very rural settings. Thus the conversations and questions, including interactions about supercharges, occurred multiple times. I spent over an hour, because I was already researching toward my eventual purchase and this was a golden opportunity. Most people participated for a handful of minutes. Charging questions were among the most common, and the reps explained home charging, and supercharging, and the travel-enabling aspects of supercharging, and the unlimited aspects of supercharging many times in my earshot.

 

[Chipper]

I had occasion to be at a Tesla store the other day and overheard the salesperson tell a potential customer who had asked about home charging he said this: "There are superchargers all over America now and some people do not even bother with home charging and just pull into a supercharger. It only takes 20-30 minutes and you are good to go."

I asked for clarification after the potential buyer had left and was told, "That's what they are there for! It's why Tesla is building them everywhere so everyone can use them any time they want."

 

[AlMc]

I had occasion to be at a Tesla store the other day and overheard the salesperson tell a potential customer who had asked about home charging he said this: "There are superchargers all over America now and some people do not even bother with home charging and just pull into a supercharger. It only takes 20-30 minutes and you are good to go."

I asked for clarification after the potential buyer had left and was told, "That's what they are there for! It's why Tesla is building them everywhere so everyone can use them any time they want."

I don't have a 'dog in this debate' but it might be interesting, as Chipper has done, to go to a local event or Gallery and ask the salesperson directly, 'Can I charge on the SC network forever, free. Then follow up with, 'Even if I have my own charging point in my garage and use the SC for day to day/local travel only?'

I agree with an earlier comment that the salespeople many times are less informed than many on the forums and thus may not represent the management's position accurately but it would be an interesting data point.

I also admit that parsing EM's few words on the subject are not always an accurate way to know what TM is doing or will do in the future.

 

[deonb]

and the unlimited aspects of supercharging many times in my earshot.

Unlimited is unfortunately too broad a term to be useful. It may both mean "as many times as you want", and "for any purpose you want". We can all agree (?) at the very least that Superchargers are limited to Model S's. So it's not quite unlimited.


I liked the wording from your original quote that you had much more: "So, if I lived near one, I wouldn't need a home charger?" and answer "You could go either way, it is more convenient to have one at home, but you don't need one, you could just SC forever."


If you can give a few more of those style specific exchanges (rather than just saying 'unlimited') that would be highly appreciated.

 

[Danal]

First half day of responses (since my "Tesla said X" post):

2 "First time anyone has ever stated that Tesla stated..."

2 "Store employees may not represent Tesla policy" (By the way, at least one of the people who did the majority of the presentation at the company event was from California, not from the DFW store).

1 "Maybe you mis-remember"

2 follow ups that use very specific "trigger" words from earlier in this thread, words that were not included in my post, phrased as "confirmation questions", thus making it seem like I said something that I didn't.

1 query as to whether this was repeated by people more than one showroom [sic]

1 (very polite) challenge to a follow up use of "unlimited" and request for more detail on what was said.



I conclude from the above responses that the activity in this thread is about nitpicking. Not about "Tesla said x and is doing y".

Bye! Have fun!



P.S. There was also:

1 confirmation that Tesla is saying things directly addressing SC-ing instead of Home Charging, as recently as "...the other day..."

 

[scaesare]

First half day of responses (since my "Tesla said X" post):

<SNIP>


I conclude from the above responses that the activity in this thread is about nitpicking. Not about "Tesla said x and is doing y".

Actually, I appreciate you chiming in. But, it falls in to the same bucket of I addressed earlier where I asked what do folks plan to do now that Tesla's intent has been clarified:

Subsequently we've recently heard Elon provide more detail regarding their intent. You may have not understood that intent previously... but you are in the vast minority.

So what now? What are you still arguing about? Are you intent on your winning standpoint and thus going to use the system (again, urban dwellers and the occasional top-off for rapid turnaround, etc... isn't at issue) just to avoid paying at home anyway?

If so, you may feel you win, but we all lose.

It's not what Tesla wants. It's not what 90% of folks feel is correct. It doesn't scale well. It might well impact how freely Tesla makes services available in the future. It may very well push them to HAVE to start acting like the other companies we often despise.


But perhaps most important: Tesla did this to make EV's easy for the world to use, and thus change the mind of billions and remove barriers to EV adoption.

Thus I don't think the posts wrangling over the few dollars of charging per session incurred to Tesla matter one wit. I suspect Elon doesn't want an unmanageable mess of clogged superchargers and therefore fail to remove one of the last and most significant barriers to long distance travel. That's why you see that phrase plastered all over the Supercharging pages.

So, if you decide to press your viewpoint and save a few bucks a month, congratulations: you are are ultimately working against the much larger issue Elon is trying to solve.

Folks can (and apparently will) argue all-day long regarding what they understood, either via not catching the written cues, or from an ill-infomed employee. And certainly the latter may be no fault of your own.

But, my point continues: what are you going to do now?