Supercharging rates go WAY up!

[Knightshade]

How do you solve for the instance when somebody lives without home charging then? Also, it seems like a lot of jobs in california, especially the bay area offer charging at work.

Work charging would seem to answer your question.

Remember- the vast majority of the US lives in single family homes... Apartments are about 20% of the population (and some of those still have home charging options available either in the complex, or having an apt with a garage or at least a usable 110v plug nearby)

And the highest concentration of folks with 0 access to home charging (dense cities in big apt buildings) are not the most likely customers anyway (as in say NYC they've got hideous parking costs and excellent public transit options)

Ultimately the % of folks who "need" to use SCs for daily driving is very small. This change might make a Tesla less appealing to that small % of the market. But it shouldn't have much impact on the vast majority of peoples ability to own/use one.

 

[EVDRVN]

How do you solve for the instance when somebody lives without home charging then? Also, it seems like a lot of jobs in california, especially the bay area offer charging at work.

Workplace for commuting. No home charging has always been an EV challenge. Issue in CA is price gouging and waste. PGE is criminal at many levels.

 

[EVDRVN]

1) Yes, that's why I posted what I did so perhaps we can avoid rehashing it over and over again. My post wasn't sarcastic, I was dead serious. Note that the national average electricity cost is 12 cents an hour. Of course it can vary widely throughout such a large country.

2) You are correct, I should have been more specific. CA and some other states have substantially better economics for solar installs than a number of states which is due to multiple factors. There are far more incentives through a variety of sources (mainly utilities) to install solar in CA than in OH for example. The solar exposure is much better in CA than in many states. From a purely economic perspective it makes no sense for me to do solar since my electricity is $0.05/kWh and any solar install would create more expensive electricity for me.

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I don't see much of any incentive left in CA, PGE and other huge utilities took them away long ago and only a few municipalities offer very low incentives. You are very lucky to have such insanely low rates. I think the

 

[TT97]

2) What are CA's great solar incentives? I would really like to expand my system before we get up to $.75.

Other than sun 355 days a year, there are some local incentives in additional to the federal credit. It's based on what the system can produce, don't have the exact formula but I remember mine being about $250/kW system. This was from LADWP (or possibly SoCal Gas). There is also solar TOU which I sell my excess solar at a higher rate (peak rate) than I buy off-peak electricity (it's a small difference in rates but still nice to have).

 

[MARKM3]

Agreed. FYI Fayetteville SC seems to be .26 for tier 2 now and lumberton is .27. From what I can tell this is really mostly impacting city areas or places in the state where power is more expensive than the overall state. Logically it makes sense that tesla would charge what they are paying in the area.

Thank you for the pricing on Lumberton NC and Fayetteville NC. That is MUCH higher than the utility rate in that area... which is about 7c per KW. The fact that Tesla is charging this high of an amount - 4x the cost - is absurd. The price should be more like .15c/KW

 

[EVDRVN]

Other than sun 355 days a year, there are some local incentives in additional to the federal credit. It's based on what the system can produce, don't have the exact formula but I remember mine being about $250/kW system. This was from LADWP (or possibly SoCal Gas). There is also solar TOU which I sell my excess solar at a higher rate (peak rate) than I buy off-peak electricity (it's a small difference in rates but still nice to have).

Except in parts of the bay area were we have lots of fog. PGE has made TOU worse and worse and will eliminate all solar E6 programs that are in place now soon.

 

[EVDRVN]

Thank you for the pricing on Lumberton NC and Fayetteville NC. That is MUCH higher than the utility rate in that area... which is about 7c per KW. The fact that Tesla is charging this high of an amount - 4x the cost - is absurd. The price should be more like .15c/KW

Prob subsidizing CA 3X our rate would be like having a gas guzzler.

 

[GregRF]

People in the Bay Area live a different lifestyle, they commute long hours and work out of their cars often. I see many of the same people on an SC working using that time to get things done. They also park and run errands which is all about living your life. Yes we pay high rates so charging at home without solar can be insanely costly. Personally I think the SC network should have been tiered or restricted for travel charging only but that would have prevented Tesla from selling cars significantly in many areas. Better yet perhaps offer better rates to those doing long road drips X times a rear and charge more to those that use an SC frequently near their homes.

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, PGE offers a TOU plan with off-peak rates of 0.13/kWh

 

[Darren Donovan]

If I knew nothing about the history of supercharging and pricing, and someone asked me what SHOULD Tesla charge for supercharging, I would say:

More than the local electric rate, because:

1) the convenience of being able to charge on the road
2) the speed at which the electricity can be delivered to the car

Both of these things feel like they command a premium over the local electric rate.

What convenience? It takes longer to put electricity into the Tesla than putting gasoline into an ICE car.

 

[Gavyne]

What convenience? It takes longer to put electricity into the Tesla than putting gasoline into an ICE car.

The guy was comparing to charging at home using a cheaper electricity rate than charging on the road with superchargers.

 

[chronopc]

I don't see much of any incentive left in CA, PGE and other huge utilities took them away long ago and only a few municipalities offer very low incentives. You are very lucky to have such insanely low rates. I think the

The only PG&E incentive I know about is $800 rebate for purchasing an EV and off peak rate at $0.13 per KwH. For my long range that comes out about 3 cents per mile.

The hike in SC rate will effect me on my monthly road trips to LA. It'll be a few more bucks, not a huge deal, but I have hope that electricity will eventually go down and Tesla can reduce the price.

 

[ChrisH]

Many states are already above 30c per kWh and I don’t expect the rates to stay there for long. Look for 50c per kWh rates by the end of the year and higher rates in the future.

Hmm. At .50 per it gets close to the same price as gas vehicles so I don’t think they should go much further.

 

[SigNC]

Thank you for the pricing on Lumberton NC and Fayetteville NC. That is MUCH higher than the utility rate in that area... which is about 7c per KW. The fact that Tesla is charging this high of an amount - 4x the cost - is absurd. The price should be more like .15c/KW

The charges are bout 15 cents a kWh. In fact I think anything under 60kW is 14 cents. It would be much easier if our state allowed them to just charge by the kW. Also, the faytetteville site could have quite a demand charge if all 8 pairs were pulling 145kW. At any rate, I think I paid about $7 to charge up on the way back from South Carolina so in the grand scheme not too big a deal as I do 99% of my charging at home.

 

[insaneoctane]

Interesting thread.
I was going to do my share of whining (which I still may do), but the more I read this thread and thought about things the harder it became to whine....

So I was going to complain that with the new SC rates, my Tesla approaches the same cost to fuel up as ICE. While this IS true that at $0.36/kWh it approaches $/mi of a $3.00/gal in fuel efficient vehicle, the majority of Tesla drivers charge at home, what 95% of the time? So while I'm not happy to be removing something from the PRO column of EV ownership, it's really a small percentage use-case for most (including me). I will continue to include charging from home in the pro column of EV ownership, just not road-tripping. I pay 30% the cost of gasoline 95% of the time and the same as gasoline 5% of the time. Hard to whine too much about that. I'm definitely NOT happy about no longer being able to tell friends and interested parties that I can long-trip anywhere an ICE while paying 30% of the cost of gas. I've told countless curious people this fact. These increased SC rates will NOT sell more EVs IMO.

But, then this really got me thinking about the whole cost model of SC in general. It seems like it's always going to be a challenge. I have to admit understanding the geographical cost of a kWh is complex. I do understand the PUCs want to charge things like demand charges that can significantly inflate the $/kWh...and large SC can potentially incur a large ($$) demand charges. In that scenario, someone has to pay for that. It seems like having SCs being driven by the grid paying whatever the PUCs what to charge including demand charges is a fool errand, no? Certainly is expensive and has a carbon footprint. So that leaves Tesla having to setup Solar and battery infrastructure with their SCs and either removing them from the grid, or minimizing their grid dependence. Seems like you could subsidize the cost of the SC by raising the $/kWh price (like homeowners do to justify installing solar). But the thing is, when a homeowner runs the numbers (like I did in California), it's always cheaper long-term to go solar when energy is expensive. With Tesla now approaching $0.31/kWh average and some at $0.36/kWh, wouldn't Tesla be able to charge $0.25/kWh for the life of the SC with Solar/batteries and have it be self-sufficient vs paying these ridiculous PUC energy fees which will just go up? I know Tesla can get a good deal on panels and batteries

Last comment, no other company has the ability to run a SC network for a lower price than Tesla. Every other company(ies) will do it for the $$ money to be made. Like gas stations- but hey, at least their fuel markup is minimal! Tesla is an energy company with the solar/battery resources to build SC at "cost". That supports their mission IMO. Tesla has forced the automotive industry's hand by creating superior cars that happened to be EVs. EVs are happing faster than ever now. When I bought my Tesla Model 3, Tesla was the only company with a fast charging network worth mentioning. Oh, and it was 1/3 the price of gasoline! More energy networks will eventually come in some capacity now with EVs taking off. It's important to EV adoption that the SC network isn't viewed as overly expensive and gouging. That will turn people back to ICE. Just like Tesla showed the way to EVs, they need to show the way to correctly build out a SC network, otherwise all of Tesla's work will be soiled by greedy energy networks that charge prices as high or higher than gasoline.

 

[EVDRVN]

The only PG&E incentive I know about is $800 rebate for purchasing an EV and off peak rate at $0.13 per KwH. For my long range that comes out about 3 cents per mile.

The hike in SC rate will effect me on my monthly road trips to LA. It'll be a few more bucks, not a huge deal, but I have hope that electricity will eventually go down and Tesla can reduce the price.

This changes your off peak rates. I'm on E6 solar. A second meter would be great but some cities block them in residences thinking they are for illegal in law units. The PGE incentive is for an EV NOT for solar which was the topic, solar incentives.

 

[Vegas]

Not anymore...

 

[happyzod]

One more thing to take into account is the extra fees electric cars are charged since they don't pay any gas tax. I beleive the fee in california is based off of 12K miles/Year, 30MPG car, and 35 cents per 30 miles driven.

 

[Az_Rael]

Every other company(ies) will do it for the $$ money to be made. Like gas stations- but hey, at least their fuel markup is minimal!

I figure someone will eventually figure out a "gas station" model for fast charging. Minimal markups on the electricity, but make your money on the convenience store, coffee shop, restaurant, paid high speed wifi, etc. You have folks captive for around 30 minutes, so it could be a good money maker if done well.

 

[SigNC]

Just for my own edification are there any known supercharger installations that have battery packs to lower demand charging fees?

 

[SigNC]

I figure someone will eventually figure out a "gas station" model for fast charging. Minimal markups on the electricity, but make your money on the convenience store, coffee shop, restaurant, paid high speed wifi, etc. You have folks captive for around 30 minutes, so it could be a good money maker if done well.

I have to assume this is somewhat the deal that has been worked out between Sheetz and Telsa in the southeast. I always spend 2x-3x what i do on supercharging on snacks and drinks when I stop to supercharge at a Sheetz.