Tapping a 110/220v outlet off the AC charger port

[israndy]

I have several devices in the car that could use charging when I am charging the car. Specifically, I could use power to charge my laptop and my scooter. I have a cigarette lighter port charger for the laptop, but the scooter charges off 63 volts pulling 3 amps from a 110v outlet. I am sure I could get an inverter and tap into the 12v battery, the DC converter apparently has a power budget of over 160 amps for the whole car.

But I realized their power adapters are universal, 110v or 220v, just like the car. That must mean there is a wire coming from the charger port that carries 110 or 220 volts when plugged in to AC charge. Surely it would be easy to tap into that and present an outlet in the car that could be left plugged into the scooter's charger and every time I AC charge the car the scooter would charge up as well.

Has anyone attempted something like this? I was watching the Ingineerix TM3 videos again yesterday and got inspired.

-Randy

 

[Uncle Paul]

Small battery gadgets can easily be charged/maintained by plugging into the car's usb sockets.

Charging something large like your scooter, with greater draw, would be best done by pluging into a 120V grid socket.

I also carry a 3 wheeled scooter with a seat to get me around when necessary. Always charge it at home.

 

[miimura]

I would not mess with the wires coming from the charge port. The best option to charge your scooter is to connect a 120V inverter directly to the 12V battery and route it into the frunk, charging the scooter there.

 

[ewoodrick]

I have several devices in the car that could use charging when I am charging the car. Specifically, I could use power to charge my laptop and my scooter. I have a cigarette lighter port charger for the laptop, but the scooter charges off 63 volts pulling 3 amps from a 110v outlet. I am sure I could get an inverter and tap into the 12v battery, the DC converter apparently has a power budget of over 160 amps for the whole car.

But I realized their power adapters are universal, 110v or 220v, just like the car. That must mean there is a wire coming from the charger port that carries 110 or 220 volts when plugged in to AC charge. Surely it would be easy to tap into that and present an outlet in the car that could be left plugged into the scooter's charger and every time I AC charge the car the scooter would charge up as well.

Has anyone attempted something like this? I was watching the Ingineerix TM3 videos again yesterday and got inspired.

-Randy

The scooter needs 3*120= 360 watts

The 12V plug has a budget of 15*12=180 watts, so using an 120V AC inverter on the 12V plug won't work.

I think that you may confusing the DC 300V system with the DC 12V system.

The charge cables have different voltages on them, dependent on what they are plugged into. A universal charger may be possible to use, but I wouldn't really suggest it.

 

[israndy]

Thanks for the suggestions, but

Uncle Paul, the point was to not have to take it in the house, if I tapped the charge port I would be charging from the grid

miimura, as ewoodrick points out, there isn't really a lot of power in the 12v system to charge my scooter thru an inverter, plus how inelegant.

I know the charge port can take 110 or 220 volts, but so can the things I would plug into this outlet.

I was just looking for someone who has taken this part of the car apart. It would be super cool if there was a place to easily and removably tap into the AC power coming into the car.

-Randy

 

[LGA737]

The wires from the charge port to the battery pack in the Model 3 are used for both AC and DC (supercharger) charging, so you couldn’t tap into them. You would have to tap into the AC inside the battery pack after the relays that switch the wires between the AC charger and the battery, which would be very hazardous and would void your warranty.

 

[Eno Deb]

There is no way to "easily and removably" tap into AC power. Remember that on the US version of the Model 3 the cables from the plug to the power electronics are shared between AC and DC, i.e. you'd be dealing with cabling that is designed to carry >200 kilowatts. To tap into the AC only lines after the AC/DC contactor you'd have to open the "penthouse" that houses the power electronics. Don't even think about it.

 

[miimura]

miimura, as ewoodrick points out, there isn't really a lot of power in the 12v system to charge my scooter thru an inverter, plus how inelegant.

Only the provided power sockets are power limited. If you tap off the 12V battery directly, you have much more power available.

 

[dhanson865]

110v or 220v,

Dude you are in America, it's 120v and 240v and has been for longer than either you or I have been alive.

 

[juliusa]

the point was to not have to take it in the house,

You could use an extension cord from a 120v outlet and leave it in the car.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Tesla has mentioned that they want to enable their new Pickup to offer jobsite 120V (or maybe even 240V) power.

People have been wanting this capability for a long time. Especially as a home backup source in a power outage, or to time shift electrical use for cost savings.

Tesla is currently using this technology in their power walls, but has so far not enabled their vehicles to off load their significant power storage for external use.

Currently they only offer relatively low power taps for usb or cigarette lighter type loads.

Easy to slowly charge your cell phone, but going to be challenging to tap into higher current. It is more than just clipping into some thicker wires as the system is pretty sophisticated and an aftermarket hack is not available.

 

[israndy]

Dude you are in America, it's 120v and 240v and has been for longer than either you or I have been alive.

Hah? When I test the power at my house it's 246v, but at the mall when I am charging it's 199v. Seems like 220v would be a good spec between those two. I have heard people say that you can get a transformer for 3 phase that's designed for 208v or 240v. I had never heard that America was trying to keep it right at 240 volts. If they are they should work harder at it.

What country was it I was quoting with the 110 and 220 volts? And how long HAVE you been alive?

-Randy

 

[israndy]

The wires from the charge port to the battery pack in the Model 3 are used for both AC and DC (supercharger) charging, so you couldn’t tap into them. You would have to tap into the AC inside the battery pack after the relays that switch the wires between the AC charger and the battery, which would be very hazardous and would void your warranty.

And THAT is the sort of information that keeps me coming back here. Thanks so much you guys for precisely explaining how it works.

I was really excited as I do spend much of my time plugged into chargers and the idea of leaving my scooter plugged in all the time so when I take it out it is always full sounded like such a good idea.

-Randy

 

[miimura]

Hah? When I test the power at my house it's 246v, but at the mall when I am charging it's 199v. Seems like 220v would be a good spec between those two. I have heard people say that you can get a transformer for 3 phase that's designed for 208v or 240v. I had never heard that America was trying to keep it right at 240 volts. If they are they should work harder at it.

What country was it I was quoting with the 110 and 220 volts? And how long HAVE you been alive?

-Randy

The 199V you're seeing is a droop from commercial 208V 3-phase power. Residential is almost always nominally 120V / 240V split phase. 240V 3-phase is not common, but is available in Delta configuration. My house is usually about 243V idle and 235V under loads like EV charging. I have solar so that also pushes up the voltage at my meter when it's generating.

 

[animorph]

I'm pretty sure there is no voltage on the charge port unless the car is actually charging, not just plugged in. The charge connectors (HPWC or mobile) should have contactors to remove voltage when the car is not charging.

Using a 12V direct to battery connection would be pretty inefficient. It charges from the main battery with a DC/DC converter. The main battery gets charged with an AC to DC charger inside the car. Then you need an inverter to get back to 120VAC and then the scooter's charger converting that to whatever the scooter needs. That's a long chain of converters.

I think an extension cord is the best solution.

 

[dhanson865]

Hah? When I test the power at my house it's 246v, but at the mall when I am charging it's 199v. Seems like 220v would be a good spec between those two. I have heard people say that you can get a transformer for 3 phase that's designed for 208v or 240v. I had never heard that America was trying to keep it right at 240 volts. If they are they should work harder at it.

What country was it I was quoting with the 110 and 220 volts? And how long HAVE you been alive?

-Randy

whew, Let me give you the refresher course then.

208v is coming off 3 phase power and is for business use. 240v is residential. So compare business to residential and you will see a difference.

As to residential in the US

In 1942, the Edison Electric Institute published the document Utilization Voltage Standardization Recommendations, EEI Pub. No. J-8. Based on that early document, a joint report was issued in 1949 by the Edison Electric Institute (EEI Pub. No. R6) and the National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA Pub. No. 117). This 1949 publication was subsequently approved as American National Standard EEI-NEMA Preferred Voltage Ratings for AC Systems and Equipment, ANSI C84.1-1954.

I can't say what year your state or local utility switched to 120v. But I sure know now that the spec is 120v plus or minus a percentage.

ANSI C84.1 Service Voltage Limits

Ø Range A minimum voltage is 95% of nominal voltage
Ø Range A maximum voltage is 105% of nominal voltage

240v is just two legs of 120v. So if you see more than 252v or less than 228v that is out of spec for residential and it should be called 240v because that is the nominal voltage.


as to what countries use 110v and 220v there are many but they aren't near the US.

Mexico uses 127v
Cuba is 110v
many Caribbean countries are 110v
Columbia is 110v
Taiwan is 110v

wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

if you don't believe me head to that article and see what it says for the United States or for Canada for that matter.

as to how long I've been alive lets just say I was born after WWII and 120v has been a thing in the US since well before WWII. If you are old enough to remember WWI maybe you can tell me what year your power company switched to 120v.

I'll give you another hint, when the US switched to 120v it wasn't from 110v to 120v. It was from a mix of power producers some of which used 110V, 115V and 117V. And all of that was so far back I can't find good records on when 110v, 115v, and 117v were phased out.

In the United States in the 1920s, utilities formed joint-operations to share peak load coverage and backup power. In 1934, with the passage of the Public Utility Holding Company Act (USA), electric utilities were recognized as public goods of importance and were given outlined restrictions and regulatory oversight of their operations.

So it probably happened around then (after WWI but before WWII) but I can't say for sure for your state or city.

 

[israndy]

Using a 12V direct to battery connection would be pretty inefficient. It charges from the main battery with a DC/DC converter. The main battery gets charged with an AC to DC charger inside the car. Then you need an inverter to get back to 120VAC and then the scooter's charger converting that to whatever the scooter needs. That's a long chain of converters.

That's what I was saying about an inverter off the 12v battery being inelegant.

I did just purchase this:

J1772 to C-13 Adapter for Electric Motorcycle/Scooter

I can use it to charge the scooter assuming there is another J1772 near the one I am charging the car with. Often the case.

-Randy

 

[diamond.g]

That's what I was saying about an inverter off the 12v battery being inelegant.

I did just purchase this:

View attachment 389872
J1772 to C-13 Adapter for Electric Motorcycle/Scooter

I can use it to charge the scooter assuming there is another J1772 near the one I am charging the car with. Often the case.

-Randy

You could try a JAdapter to plug into that Adapter. Though I would be curious to know if the EVSE would apply power with no signal to do so (how would the C-13 signal that it wanted power).

 

[miimura]

If you want to charge the scooter as efficiently as possible, a DC-DC boost converter with CC/CV control from the car's 12V system would be the most efficient. Basically, you would be building a DC lithium battery charger compatible with the AC one provided with the scooter. You could take the 120W max power available from the 12V power port, or take more 12VDC power direct from the 12V battery as I suggested up-thread. At least this way you don't have so many AC-DC conversion losses.

 

[lairdb]

Only the provided power sockets are power limited. If you tap off the 12V battery directly, you have much more power available.

There is considerable anecdotal evidence that tapping directly from the 12v battery will throw errors after a little while, since the LVBMS detects AGM battery drain that is not coming from the managed portions of the car.

VCLEFT has two aux out circuits that are not in use, IIRC marked TRAILER and ROOF, that are 15A "fused", 10A continuous draw, but those are switched, not always-on.

Ingineerix has said "If you are going for a high-current always-on source, I recommend tapping under the back seat, right side, or on the top of VCRIGHT where the 2 lugs connect. USE A FUSE!"