Taycan impact on Model S - a theory I hope is not true

[VQTRVA]

Yes, I only listed what I personally experienced.


Evidently many such clouds all around the world. Many people on TMC have, but percentage wise I agree. Tesla more then doubled the number of cars on the road in the last year, so the majority of customers have not experienced Tesla long term. The topic I was responding to was the the "tiger never changes its stripes", so history is relevant information for that.


You evidently don't grasp the extend of what Tesla does. No other manufacturer dares to pull crap like Tesla does. For example, it's not that they have a concept which didn't come to market, more like they sold you a concept, then when it came to market, they gave it a slightly different name, told you you that what you paid for is not ever coming, but they will not refund you either, but you can however buy the new thing for a ton of money. Specific example: me, and a few thousand other people, paid $25K extra to upgrade from S85D to P85D. The order page said it will produce 274hp more (691hp for P85D vs. 417hp for 85D), but it said the power upgrade will come soon over the air. Two years of radio silence, finally some people in Europe sue and Tesla admits that all we got is 46hp extra, a far cry from 274hp, BUT, wait for it, the motors are capable, just not the whole car. Oh, also, for only $80K more I could upgrade to P100D which did produce the advertised 691hp. It would be like Tesla never delivering on FSD and telling people their cars are capable, but will never do it - heck, with FSD they had a fine print saying nobody knows when it will be available, so they are more legally covered than the P85D upgrade.



Responding to "tiger never changes its stripes" I was providing some history as a Tesla customer. I am not sure what's confusing you about that - is it that you are seeing everything though the lens of a brand new customer? Your TMC join date is less than 4 months ago, so if you just got the car, I get and can understand the honeymoon stage - I've been a Tesla customer for over 6 years now, 4 new cars during that time, so I have some perspective, and my "honeymoon period" lasted almost 3 years by the way (but then again, Service was amazing back then, fixed all issues, there was a live person you could call, didn't have to wait a month for an appointment, etc).

I am in techonology & understand what a start up is.
That's the only lens I see through.

Elon might talk a big game but he's deliverred.

His only problem is unlike most IT people- he doesn't undersell & over deliver.

Oh well, thanks for taking the bullet & being an early adopter.
Us new comers will take it from here with or without your cynism.

Ride or die as they say.

 

[Magellan55]

Just don't underestimate the number of people who prefer a traditional interior, traditional dealerships, brand loyalty to the Euro brands, etc. Heck even the traditional driving experience (i.e. no one-pedal driving). I think most of these sales will be taken from equivalent ICE cars, but some Tesla owners will jump ship as they only had a Tesla because no one else made a non-dorky EV and they wanted the HOV sticker, etc.

 

[CarlK]

Just don't underestimate the number of people who prefer a traditional interior, traditional dealerships, brand loyalty to the Euro brands, etc. Heck even the traditional driving experience (i.e. no one-pedal driving). I think most of these sales will be taken from equivalent ICE cars, but some Tesla owners will jump ship as they only had a Tesla because no one else made a non-dorky EV and they wanted the HOV sticker, etc.

True there are loyalists but not until newer and better things come. Remember not too long ago no one who thinks he/she is not somebody would not carry a Blackberry with those chiclic keys? Maybe it's different in your demography but here in California, especially for millennial, Tesla is the iPhone and traditional design is the flip phone. Older folks like you (I assume) and I will eventually adopt or die off.

It's pretty much like in the 80's when California started to adopt foreign efficient cars but rest of country mostly still want those big fancy American land yachts. It took them a while to change but eventually they did change. You can't hang on to something forever and ignore newer and better things only because it's a "tradition".

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I don't see it having much impact on Model S sales as those have already been corrected with all the other EV alternatives depending on use case. I doubt it's going to have much impact on P3D sales either as there will be plenty of people wanting to spend less money to get a P3D than a Taycan.

Instead I see the Taycan being a more speciality item that those of us like myself might get because we don't want to be driving the same thing everyone else is driving.

But, is this entire conversation even relevant now days?

ICE cars are in general really kinda stupid for typical driving scenerios. It's kinda hard for me to admit this because I still like gas for what it offers. But, my god at this point in time a gas vehicle should be the speciality, and not the other way around.

You can't even pull away from a stop light with an ICE car. When the light turns green you slowly release the brake, and the engine turns on. Then after letting it turn on you hit the gas. By the time you've done that even a Leaf is like 100ft in front of you wondering what's taking you so long. Then a few minutes later you're at the next light or stuck in traffic, and the same thing repeats itself.

I can't even imagine wanting an ICE unless it was something special, or I had room to let it breathe. I don't think those of us that live in areas with lots of people even have that chance.

That is why there is no point in worrying about EV's stealing sales from another EV. Instead we should focus on what makes each EV unique or special. Is the Taycan special in its own right? I think so.

In fact I'd say that the Taycan's existence will create more sales for Tesla on a whole than it will take away. It will because quite frankly it's all marketing for EV's. It's media coverage, talking about on social media, doing test drives. One person will get the Taycan, and then two people they know will get a Tesla.

I might not be a fan of Musk, but I have to acknowledge there are three things that make Tesla really hard to compete with. Those three things are Range, Battery cost, and Battery availability. Sure there are a lot of other things, but those three things is why other EV's can't compete at scale with Tesla.

 

[Skipdd]

I am in techonology & understand what a start up is.
That's the only lens I see through.

Elon might talk a big game but he's deliverred.

His only problem is unlike most IT people- he doesn't undersell & over deliver.

Oh well, thanks for taking the bullet & being an early adopter.
Us new comers will take it from here with or without your cynism.

Ride or die as they say.

Pretty sure you should look in the mirror, then possibly swallow a dose of humility. Might get you farther in the long run.

I for one appreciate the folks posting issues, advocating for solutions, and trying to hold the company accountable. You can like the product (I do), want the company to succeed (ditto), and still have issues with flaws that mar the experience. Experience enough flaws (apparently you haven’t), and one might hit the pause button on buying more product. Every company needs a feedback loop. If they are smart, they pay attention to it..am pretty sure there’s an aphorism for that too.

 

[CarlK]

Pretty sure you should look in the mirror, then possibly swallow a dose of humility. Might get you farther in the long run.

I for one appreciate the folks posting issues, advocating for solutions, and trying to hold the company accountable. You can like the product (I do), want the company to succeed (ditto), and still have issues with flaws that mar the experience. Experience enough flaws (apparently you haven’t), and one might hit the pause button on buying more product. Every company needs a feedback loop. If they are smart, they pay attention to it..am pretty sure there’s an aphorism for that too.

Hold the company accountable? Accountable for what? For providing you with the product no one else could for you to enjoy? One can have all his/her wants and needs but before criticizing someone else one should also realize the reason he/she could even enjoy what he/she might think an imperfect thing is only because someone else was taking risks and worked real hard to help achieve it. Read Teddy Roosevelt's man in the arena to learn to at least keep a degree of humility and understand no one actually owes anyone anything.

***It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.***

Not saying opinions and feedbacks are not good but they should be in the form of "I like to have this" instead of "you should do that or else". We've had too many of the later here imo.

 

[sixela]

It's not the critic who counts, but it sure is the man who either listens to his critics or doesn't ;-).

I've experienced Tesla as a company full of well-meaning people but badly organised (especially outside of manufacturing, since its current singular focus is to drive up production).

There's no need to defend the obvious organisational chaos: being better organised would actually make Tesla money.

Although there are indeed valid reasons for the constant state of relative disarray. I don't agree that by now the company should have no "growing pains". It'll stop having growing pains only once it stops growing this fast. I'm not as pessimistic as others sound: it's a company that has to change stripes constantly.

 

[CarlK]

Haha another cold and timid soul who has nothing in the game has just spoken. In the spirit of that I'd suggest you to start your own great company to provide great products so we could all enjoy (to criticize).

A lot of things laypeople like to criticize they actually are missing the point. For example what some may describe as "obvious organisational chaos" could just be one of the reasons why Tesla could have moved so fast and beat companies with strict organization layers and never wavering policies. Here is Jeff Bezos' take on people who change their mind so fast:

Billionaire Jeff Bezos: People who are 'right a lot' make decisions differently than everyone else—here's how

And Emerson's foolish consistency quote.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

Anyway the point is still very clear. No one could have built something like what Elon has build by following everything those "critics" prescribed.

 

[whitex]

Haha another cold and timid soul who has nothing in the game has just spoken. In the spirit of that I'd suggest you to start your own great company to provide great products so we could all enjoy (to criticize).

A lot of things laypeople like to criticize they actually are missing the point. For example what some may describe as "obvious organisational chaos" could just be one of the reasons why Tesla could have moved so fast and beat companies with strict organization layers and never wavering policies. Here is Jeff Bezos' take on people who change their mind so fast:

Billionaire Jeff Bezos: People who are 'right a lot' make decisions differently than everyone else—here's how

And Emerson's foolish consistency quote.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

Anyway the point is still very clear. No one could have built something like what Elon has build by following everything those "critics" prescribed.

So Elon's decision to change out yellow screens, then tell people fairy tales to stall for time, and then to tell the yellow screen are excluded from the warranty (apparently driving a car is considered improper usage, damaging the screen?) - that's a sign of greatness to you? Bernie Madoff had a great product many people enjoyed too, until they didn't.

 

[sixela]

No one could have built something like what Elon has build

No argument from me, but this is a car and a company, not a religion. The company is only going to remain great if it strives to overcome its weaknesses, and you can't do that by denying them.

The same holds for men. I don't consider the men looking everyone in the mirror telling themselves "I'm the greatest" great men. The ones that work to become great have my respect (and that certainly includes Elon Musk).

Haha another cold and timid soul

Wake me up when sycophants change the world. Until then, I'll have more respect for men like Elon Musk than I have for your viewpoints.

 

[VQTRVA]

Pretty sure you should look in the mirror, then possibly swallow a dose of humility. Might get you farther in the long run.

I for one appreciate the folks posting issues, advocating for solutions, and trying to hold the company accountable. You can like the product (I do), want the company to succeed (ditto), and still have issues with flaws that mar the experience. Experience enough flaws (apparently you haven’t), and one might hit the pause button on buying more product. Every company needs a feedback loop. If they are smart, they pay attention to it..am pretty sure there’s an aphorism for that too.

Written like some1 who never put their stake on the line to build something great.

If great innovators kept pausing & attended to every piece of feedback in your loop - nothing would ever be accomplished.
There's a punch list in your head that doesn't align with the same to-do list as Tesla's.
But then the world doesn't revolve around your minority report.

The whine lists is usually highest from arm chair Quarterbacks not from the QBs themselves...

 

[CarlK]

A lot things laypeople

So Elon's decision to change out yellow screens, then tell people fairy tales to stall for time, and then to tell the yellow screen are excluded from the warranty (apparently driving a car is considered improper usage, damaging the screen?) - that's a sign of greatness to you? Bernie Madoff had a great product many people enjoyed too, until they didn't.

Definitely the case. You probably are still not getting it why smartest people change their mind often. They will not hesitate to make new decisions when more new information are coming in. I, and you too, have no idea what was the true situation behind the yellow band but I'm sure it's a more complicated situation that involves a lot of level from design to supply chain than just to replace the screen. One thing I've heard was it will reappear even if it's replaced with a new screen. Or if you're evil minded it could even be finance people told him this will break the company if he does that (at least some of us do not want that to happen). It would be FOOLISH just to stick to the original assessment and give everyone a new screen for any of those reasons.

I don't know you but by mentioning Bernie Madoff I finally realized where you're coming from.

 

[Scott7]

Replace two words in this quote and one can replay some of the frequnt pundit commentary I read around 2008 or so. I chose Nokia but you could just as easily fill in RIM/Blackberry/Microsoft.

Other manufacturers are obviously catching up and definitely will catch up to Apple (at least I really hope they will), because they have one thing Apple craves so much: cash. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but does anyone here seriously think that Apple is the only company with smart engineers and researchers? Do you really believe that Nokia CEO is some dumbass that will just sit on the sidelines while his business is getting ripped apart by Apple? Come on. Maybe their first iterations suck, but I am willing to bet a lot of money that the next Nokia won’t suck. They are coming.

Not sure why everyone keeps saying that the Taycan has no viable L3 charging network. VW is building out an L3 network through its "Electrify America" diesel-gate penance project. Plus the Taycan will be about charge at higher speeds (up to 350KW if recall correctly).

I challenge you to go to Plugshare and read the comments on a few of the EA locations. Building the locations is important, but it's not the only thing--Reliability is just as important. I don't want to go on a roadtrip and risk getting stranded because the EA location I routed to is completely down. What am I supposed to do then? Maybe it will improve over time but it appears they are off to a rough start and this matches my experience with ALL the other charging networks. Superchargers are the exception (at least in the US).

In fact I'd say that the Taycan's existence will create more sales for Tesla on a whole than it will take away. It will because quite frankly it's all marketing for EV's. It's media coverage, talking about on social media, doing test drives. One person will get the Taycan, and then two people they know will get a Tesla.

Yes! No one can predict exactly what will happen, but I think far too few are recognizing the potential positive impact on Tesla that REAL adversing efforts from the major manufacturers on EVs could bring. The average person still doesn't grasp all the many benefits of EVs and once they are convinced and begin their shopping, they're going to end up comparing with Telsa where they learn this:

I have to acknowledge there are three things that make Tesla really hard to compete with. Those three things are Range, Battery cost, and Battery availability. Sure there are a lot of other things, but those three things is why other EV's can't compete at scale with Tesla.

 

[Chaserr]

Hold the company accountable? Accountable for what?

Most recently they've taken battery capacity and horsepower away from people that paid them thousands for those upgrades. Thieves must be held accountable.

I used to recommend Tesla to everyone. I recently showed my car to a person visiting the US from a country where they are not sold, and could not recommend the brand any more. The concept of an electric car is something I won't go back on, but this company is something I can't in good conscience recommend.

 

[CarlK]

@Scott7 For traditional companies top guys do not want to take risks and lower level guys are not capable to even if they want to (they usually don't though). Which CEO would want to spend tens of billions of dollars to go all in and risk losing his/her job even if it eventually could succeed? Those people rose to the position not because they were taking risks but because they know how not to take unnecessary risks and make mistakes. Almost all risky propositions came for new companies with visionary founders. The "smart" way for old time CEO's is always to play it safe so you will still be running the company when you're ready to retire with a nice pension. You certainly can play it safe and wait until someone else proved it to you but aren't you already got beaten at that point? Exactly what has happened to those that Apple, Netfilx, and yes Tesla disrupted.

Most recently they've taken battery capacity and horsepower away from people that paid them thousands for those upgrades. Thieves must be held accountable.

I used to recommend Tesla to everyone. I recently showed my car to a person visiting the US from a country where they are not sold, and could not recommend the brand any more. The concept of an electric car is something I won't go back on, but this company is something I can't in good conscience recommend.

Just don't ever buy the car again, and tell everyone you know not to, if you feel so strong about the company. Not sure of what you're talking about but even if true "taken battery capacity and horsepower away from people that paid them thousands for those upgrades" pales in comparison to what other companies are doing everyday themselves or doing those hiding behind stealerships. And have you ever heard of the dieselgate? Do you know how much money consumers were cheated and how many children's lungs may be damaged from those high NoX emissions? That's where you really should direct your animosity to.

 

[Uncle Paul]

There is both, a lot of good and a lot or room for improvement in Tesla.

Some will choose to pick on those areas where they gleefully find fault, others will revelle in the greatness of their accomplishments.

People get to choose which path suits them best.

 

[CarlK]

There is both, a lot of good and a lot or room for improvement in Tesla.

Some will choose to pick on those areas where they gleefully find fault, others will revelle in the greatness of their accomplishments.

People get to choose which path suits them best.

It's not perfect and nothing will ever be perfect for everyone. We do need to put everything in the right perspective when commenting on things though. The company has done a lot of great things for a lot people. Just walk away if it's not for you. There are a lot of other choices (for you). I really can't understand where those hatred were coming from.

 

[Skipdd]

It's not perfect and nothing will ever be perfect for everyone. We do need to put everything in the right perspective when commenting on things though. The company has done a lot of great things for a lot people. Just walk away if it's not for you. There are a lot of other choices (for you). I really can't understand where those hatred were coming from.

No hatred. What I object to is the theory that any crticism has to be balanced against the greatness of what is being accomplished as judged by you or @VQTRVA. WHAT’s up with that? Sounds like MAGA stuff.

 

[SO16]

Most recently they've taken battery capacity and horsepower away from people that paid them thousands for those upgrades.

What is this you are referring to?

 

[Skipdd]

Haha another cold and timid soul who has nothing in the game has just spoken. In the spirit of that I'd suggest you to start your own great company to provide great products so we could all enjoy (to criticize).

A lot of things laypeople like to criticize they actually are missing the point. For example what some may describe as "obvious organisational chaos" could just be one of the reasons why Tesla could have moved so fast and beat companies with strict organization layers and never wavering policies. Here is Jeff Bezos' take on people who change their mind so fast:

Billionaire Jeff Bezos: People who are 'right a lot' make decisions differently than everyone else—here's how

And Emerson's foolish consistency quote.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

Anyway the point is still very clear. No one could have built something like what Elon has build by following everything those "critics" prescribed.

Glad you mentioned Jeff Bezos. He is said to be obsessed with customer satisfaction, recognizing it to be a strategic driver of his business.
Jeff Bezos said the 'secret sauce' to Amazon's success is an 'obsessive compulsive focus' on customer over competitor

The brilliant business lesson behind the emails Jeff Bezos sends to his Amazon executives with a single ‘?’

Note, that most people raising issues here are CUSTOMERS. I’m good with Jeff Bezos’ philosophy - all parts of it.