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Tesla backing Bitcoin is a carbon tragedy (energy use is HUGE/transaction)

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
89
114
Northern Wi
How can a company that declares is wants to move of ICE and Fossil Fuels for climate reasons back Bitcoin or any crypto? A Google search of energy usage is 1 BitCoin transaction is 660 KWHs. A Model 3 could go over 2500 miles! World usage of energy for Bitcoin is like the same carbon footprint as a year for ALL of New Zealand.

1 BitCoin transaction is the same energy as 694,893 Visa transactions.

Am I missing something? Seems like a company that is pushing the world to green energy would not be using a 'money' that is SO energy intensive compared to cash or existing credit.

Where is the error in my logic?
 

fmm

Member
May 19, 2015
90
102
Philadelphia, PA
first, not all crypto is mined. some tokens are (like Bitcoin), but not all, so the dynamic you note is not the same across the whole space.

second, once a token is mined it's been mined. no more energy necessary. denying the future because of the already absorbed sunk costs is not logical. Is Tesla mining Bitcoin? no, they purchased already mined tokens.

third, heard of the geothermal powered mining operations in Iceland? What type of carbon impact do those have?
 

glide

Active Member
Jun 6, 2018
2,867
2,865
USA
How can a company that declares is wants to move of ICE and Fossil Fuels for climate reasons back Bitcoin or any crypto? A Google search of energy usage is 1 BitCoin transaction is 660 KWHs. A Model 3 could go over 2500 miles! World usage of energy for Bitcoin is like the same carbon footprint as a year for ALL of New Zealand.

1 BitCoin transaction is the same energy as 694,893 Visa transactions.

Am I missing something? Seems like a company that is pushing the world to green energy would not be using a 'money' that is SO energy intensive compared to cash or existing credit.

Where is the error in my logic?
That’s the joke. You thought Tesla’s mission statement was real. The same owns a company buying up all the dinosaur blood possible to fuel his rockets and is sinking cash into crypto which, as you stated, is a gigantic waste of energy.

They are a publicly traded company and have ONE mission. Making money.
 

glide

Active Member
Jun 6, 2018
2,867
2,865
USA
first, not all crypto is mined. some tokens are (like Bitcoin), but not all, so the dynamic you note is not the same across the whole space.

second, once a token is mined it's been mined. no more energy necessary. denying the future because of the already absorbed sunk costs is not logical. Is Tesla mining Bitcoin? no, they purchased already mined tokens.

third, heard of the geothermal powered mining operations in Iceland? What type of carbon impact do those have?
I think you should read up on how BTC transactions work. Once a “coin” is mined, that is not the end of the energy consumption. Transactions on the ledger need to be moved around and verified.
 
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fmm

Member
May 19, 2015
90
102
Philadelphia, PA
quite familiar thank you - how does that compare with the energy consumption of a dedicated private centralized ledger? how many of those decentralized ledgers that are updated are shared vs dedicated hardware platforms? how many are virtual? how much energy does a token in cold storage utilize?

this is like one of those carbon consumption arguments the anti-EV crowd makes.
 
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nwdiver

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2013
7,743
9,958
United States
They are a publicly traded company and have ONE mission. Making money.

Yes. Elons only goal is to make money. That's why he chose the most difficult path with the lowest probability of profit.....

A Google search of energy usage is 1 BitCoin transaction is 660 KWHs.

Let's try to employ a little critical thinking. You can buy and sell fractional bit coins... yes? So you could buy or sell $100 of BTC on a coin exchange and they charge 0.5% or $0.50 to buy or sell $100 of BTC. But.... you... you... think that transaction uses 660kWh? ~$66 worth of electricity? ..... think.
 
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FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
89
114
Northern Wi
Let's try to employ a little critical thinking... But.... you... you... think that transaction uses 660kWh? ~$66 worth of electricity? ..... think.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Google searches show The BBC has the amount at over 700 kw PER TRANSACTION. The Block Chain takes lots of energy, even those that support Bitcoin say that. They make arguments that by using excessive hydro in China, Bitcoin to good. None argument that they don't use huge amounts of energy.

So critically, when the Google says the Bitcoin network takes more energy than the Country of New Zealand, I have to question if this is a good way to use energy resources. And by a company that claims to be green pushers(Tesla) I question why?
 
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FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
89
114
Northern Wi
Also, regular money also is kept by computers only, should we start measuring the total internet power consumption too?

Yes, that is valid. But Bitcoin was designed to be energy intensive such that it's over 690,000 Visa transactions per bitcoin transaction energy wise, so it the whole world moved to bitcoin we have a problem.

If Bitcoin wasn't expensive to mine, wouldn't all be mining if now valued at $40,000? Energy is one of the cost to keep all from just mining our own.

I need to learn how mining works VS transactions.
 

nwdiver

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2013
7,743
9,958
United States
None argument that they don't use huge amounts of energy.

.... the fact a bit coin transaction costs 0.5% not >$60 is a pretty.... pretty good 'argument' transactions don't use huge amounts of energy.... MINING uses a lot (1BTC is >$40k) but as mentioned previously... once it's mined it's mined.
 
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David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,182
672
Cary, NC
I am not sure the Elon took the most difficult path. He realized there were incentives and that these would increase, he predicted the desirability of EVs and the decrease in price with volume.
One doesn't become one of the richest people in the world by choosing the most difficult path. You do it by predicting trends, being smart about timing the trends and taking risks.
Does he really care about the environment? I wouldn't bet on it. I mean I think he does but certainly not sure.
I know he likes fast cars. I know he likes money. But environment? - probably.

I don't pretend to be an expert in bitcoin but it seems to me a way of giving power to tech and taking it away from government. Is that a good thing? Probably not as the power of tech is apparently an oligarchy. I think Elon favors tech.

Hero worship is rarely a positive thing.
 

jackbowers

Jack Bowers
Aug 23, 2009
275
447
Is it possible that bitcoin is a carbon-light replacement for gold mining? As I understand it, the bitcoin blockchain, while energy intense, runs largely on hydropower because the miners have to go where electricity is cheap or they won't make any money. Digging gold out of the ground, on the other hand, uses a lot more energy than mining bitcoin (for equivalent value created), and that energy is probably not as green either.

Here's how bitcoin could put an end to most gold mining activity (much like batteries could put an end to most oil production). Because the supply of bitcoins - relative to gold - is not being diluted as much by mining activity, it is likely to become the superior hard asset, appreciating perhaps 2-3 percentage points more than inflation on an annual basis. Gold, which rises roughly in tandem with inflation over the long run, could be largely abandoned by investors over the next two decades. Once that happens its price would be set mainly by jewelry demand, most likely at a fraction of its current level - rendering most mining activity unprofitable. Thoughts?
 

nwdiver

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2013
7,743
9,958
United States
I am not sure the Elon took the most difficult path.

Looking back from 2020. He started Space X and sank most of
his capital in Tesla pre-2005. ~99.999% of investors at that time would have laughed you out of the room if your business plan included the words 'orbital rockets' , 'electric vehicles' or 'solar PV'....

Hero worship is rarely a positive thing.

.... neither is ascribing personal shortcomings on others... Elon is likely a sociopath and it would be more that a little crazy to 'hero worship' a sociopath. But he also clearly cares more about sustainable energy and making humanity multi-planitary than he cares about money. Just because some people are unable to imagine motivations beyond selfish greed doesn't mean those motivations don't exist in others.
 
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David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,182
672
Cary, NC
So he is moving to Texas because he thinks that will be better for sustainable energy?
He thinks the climate in Austin is nicer? Schools are better maybe....
Me thinks he is moving to avoid CA taxes.

I can absolutely imagine motivations beyond selfish greed but then why move to Texas?

And his violating the Covid quarantine (by opening the factory) was not financially selfish?

I think lots of people think Elon walks on water. I am glad you realize he is likely a sociopath. And you fully understand the definition.

I have often said that he is like a Trump that believes in climate change. But tell me how $1.5B in bitcoin helps the environment?

It is really far easier to save the Earth than try to move to another planet. Even imagining all sorts of futuristic developments. It is okay to work to progress to that but going overboard is a waste of resources. It is my opinion that we don't have enough resources to both save Earth and move away. The concept of colonizing other worlds defines hubris.
 
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FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
89
114
Northern Wi
Have thought the same thing as alot of this post

Texas move is all about taxes. Fighting over initial covid restrictions was a selfish move (money over people's safety). And saving this planet should be easier than moving to Mars but we can't even agree this one needs saving from carbon emissions.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,400
7,525
Maine
Have thought the same thing as alot of this post

Texas move is all about taxes. Fighting over initial covid restrictions was a selfish move (money over people's safety). And saving this planet should be easier than moving to Mars but we can't even agree this one needs saving from carbon emissions.

I don't think it's taxes, at least not directly. I think it's about costs.
In Texas land is cheaper, labor is cheaper and business can be done faster (time is money).

But overall, Musk really just cares about SpaceX. SpaceX launches from Florida, with a medium-term plan of launching from Southern Texas, where it's developing Starship and then Super Heavy. So he wants to be in Texas.
 

nwdiver

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2013
7,743
9,958
United States
So he is moving to Texas because he thinks that will be better for sustainable energy?
He thinks the climate in Austin is nicer? Schools are better maybe....
Me thinks he is moving to avoid CA taxes.

I can absolutely imagine motivations beyond selfish greed but then why move to Texas?

And his violating the Covid quarantine (by opening the factory) was not financially selfish?

I think lots of people think Elon walks on water. I am glad you realize he is likely a sociopath. And you fully understand the definition.

I have often said that he is like a Trump that believes in climate change. But tell me how $1.5B in bitcoin helps the environment?

He thinks moving to Texas will allow him to prioritize sustainable energy over the health and safety of his workers. I did say he’s likely a sociopath. He cares about his workers in the same way a ‘successful’ general cares about his soldiers. Victory comes at a cost. CA was forcing Elon to be a general like McClellan when he thinks he needs to be more like Grant. TX encourages that....

Sure... Elon is like Trump... except ~10x the intelligence, Elon accepts reality and his top two priorities are sustainable energy and making humanity multi-planetary. Trump is also a sociopath but also a complete moron and his top ten priorities are Trump, Trump, Trump...... Trump and Trump.
 
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David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,182
672
Cary, NC
See, I think your description of Trump is the definition of sociopath.
No concern for anyone but themselves. Complete lack of empathy. No social conscience whatsoever.

Obviously an unfair comparison (Elon = Trump)

Agree with your TX argument - makes sense. The thing about being single minded is that it excuses all sorts of bad behaviors. Sort of like why some very moral, very empathetic people voted for Trump. I would like to think it doesn't have to be this way but I may be wrong....

Was Goldwater right? (extremism quote)
 
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