Tesla battery warranty enhancement?

[dgpcolorado]

If it were 90% I'd be all in. What's the most degradation you have heard of?

Measured how? I did a 99% charge on my car yesterday and got 187 RM. If a new S60 was 208 then I'm down about 9% on a two and a half year old car with 23,000 miles.

My impression is that the battery degradation numbers people throw around are very soft. Unless they have some rigorous way to measure degradation that I'm not aware of.

 

[msnow]

Measured how? I did a 99% charge on my car yesterday and got 187 RM. If a new S60 was 208 then I'm down about 9% on a two and a half year old car with 23,000 miles.

My impression is that the battery degradation numbers people throw around are very soft. Unless they have some rigorous way to measure degradation that I'm not aware of.

To me it would be measuring day one brand new rated miles at 100% charge against today's 100% rated range after a balancing or two.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

An informed buyer would know that we have ample data to support that degradation is not an issue with the Model S. 2012 and 2013 cars with 100k to 200k miles show minimal degradation

And that's why it's needed. This isn't for US--"informed buyers" like us spend hours on TMC. This is for new buyers with all those pesky new buyer fears . . . I still encounter people every single day that are completely ignorant of Tesla, BEV's, etc., and they have the same questions and fears.

Now that Tesla has data, and lots of it, since it's probably favorable in terms of long-term longevity (at least on a mileage basis; on a calendar basis the jury is still out, no?), why not step up and retroactively do this ASAP?

Especially in light of our terrible performance on the Consumer Reports reliability stats, this falls into the "almost no-brainer" category. (Along with extending the warranty to FIVE YEARS and 75,000 miles!)

 

[stopcrazypp]

And that's why it's needed. This isn't for US--"informed buyers" like us spend hours on TMC. This is for new buyers with all those pesky new buyer fears . . . I still encounter people every single day that are completely ignorant of Tesla, BEV's, etc., and they have the same questions and fears.

Now that Tesla has data, and lots of it, since it's probably favorable in terms of long-term longevity (at least on a mileage basis; on a calendar basis the jury is still out, no?), why not step up and retroactively do this ASAP?

Especially in light of our terrible performance on the Consumer Reports reliability stats, this falls into the "almost no-brainer" category. (Along with extending the warranty to FIVE YEARS and 75,000 miles!)

This is a bad idea because Teslas are one of the few EVs where the degradation question isn't really brought up (because it had never been a real issue, so Tesla just points to the 8 year unlimited mile defect warranty). The Leaf needed it because it had horrible degradation, but the one it has isn't impressive at all (70%, 5 year, 60k miles)

If Tesla sets the warranty like the others (typically a 70% warranty, at or lower than the defect warranty), then they are in a worse position than previously (new buyers may assume that is roughly the typical expected degradation behavior). If they set it higher and they are wrong, then they have unexpectedly higher warranty costs. It's a lose-lose situation for Tesla to have a degradation warranty at the moment.

 

[Forty Creek]

And that's why it's needed. This isn't for US--"informed buyers" like us spend hours on TMC. This is for new buyers with all those pesky new buyer fears . . . I still encounter people every single day that are completely ignorant of Tesla, BEV's, etc., and they have the same questions and fears.

Now that Tesla has data, and lots of it, since it's probably favorable in terms of long-term longevity (at least on a mileage basis; on a calendar basis the jury is still out, no?), why not step up and retroactively do this ASAP?

Yes... this was exactly the point in my original post. I frequently take my car to cruise events and it's the only EV there. I'm always asked about battery life (after the usual... how far, how long to charge, where do you charge etc.). The S has only been around for a little more than 4 years and people have a legitimate concern about this. Also degradation is not covered by the 8 year warranty.

 

[Forty Creek]

This is a bad idea because Teslas are one of the few EVs where the degradation question isn't really brought up (because it had never been a real issue, so Tesla just points to the 8 year unlimited mile defect warranty). The Leaf needed it because it had horrible degradation, but the one it has isn't impressive at all (70%, 5 year, 60k miles)

If Tesla sets the warranty like the others (typically a 70% warranty, at or lower than the defect warranty), then they are in a worse position than previously (new buyers may assume that is roughly the typical expected degradation behavior). If they set it higher and they are wrong, then they have unexpectedly higher warranty costs. It's a lose-lose situation for Tesla to have a degradation warranty at the moment.

Fair points but in my experience degradation is frequently brought up. It is usually couched in terms of 'how long before you need to replace the battery?'. As stated previously, the current warranty does not apply to degradation. If the data exists to support it, Tesla might be able to offer a better warranty than other companies.

 

[msnow]

I don't have my warranty handy but isn't "excessive" (whatever that means) degradation covered?

 

[Forty Creek]

I don't have my warranty handy but isn't "excessive" (whatever that means) degradation covered?

Yes it probably would be. If a battery pack degraded much more than the fleet average, I expect Tesla would cover it. The issue however is, what constitutes "excessive"? I am not aware of anyone having a pack replaced under warranty due to battery degradation (and this is likely a good thing).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Fair points but in my experience degradation is frequently brought up. It is usually couched in terms of 'how long before you need to replace the battery?'. As stated previously, the current warranty does not apply to degradation. If the data exists to support it, Tesla might be able to offer a better warranty than other companies.

That's exactly my point, it's talked about in terms of "replace the battery". And if Tesla sets a 8 year degradation warranty for example, then would you answer "in 8 years"? I would guess not.

Having a degradation warranty does not help address this question in a good way, since that would be used as a baseline to project expected degradation and would tend to be pessimistic about it (the warranty would typically be conservative). For example, imagine someone asking a Leaf owner the same question. How would the Leaf's 70%, 5 year, 60k mile warranty help answer that question?

A better way is to look at survey results (like the Plug-in America surveys), but it'll be a while before we have longer term results (the S is only 4 years in).

Practically none of the non-enthusiasts will know enough to ask about the real question that a degradation warranty covers (how much degradation you can expect in x years, x miles, while you can keep driving the car even with degradation).

 

[MichFin]

According to Tesla, SuperChargers are vastly underutilized. Additional revenue from "charge on demand" or subscription creates a new profit center. Add to that a reduction in spending on that infrastructure and you have profit. Something us shareholders like. Finance 101.

I think we can both agree that if you charge someone for something you were giving away for free you're raising the price of the product. On top of that they raised the price of the car by 2-3%. You wouldn't raise the price of the car unless you felt your sales were good enough to fully utilize your factories. If your factory isn't running at/near capacity you're not maximizing your fixed costs. So this shows me that they're not feeling any demand pressure.

 

[msnow]

I think we can both agree that if you charge someone for something you were giving away for free you're raising the price of the product. On top of that they raised the price of the car by 2-3%. You wouldn't raise the price of the car unless you felt your sales were good enough to fully utilize your factories. If your factory isn't running at/near capacity you're not maximizing your fixed costs. So this shows me that they're not feeling any demand pressure.

Another reason might be that the cost to make the product went up.

 

[David99]

The normal average user has no clue about battery degradation. Some have heard that batteries go bad after a while and replacing them is expensive. Tesla responded by giving it an 8 year unlimited miles warranty. They put people's mind to rest. That's all they need to know. Talking about degradation and specific numbers is not helping, it is just pointing out an issue people never knew about in the first place. It would not help Tesla sell more cars. It would make uneducated people just aware of an issue.

Tesla doesn't cover normal degradation in their warranty. Whatever normal means. It is common in the battery industry to define the end of a cell's lifetime when it has 80% or less of it's original capacity. Looking at the data we have at this point, it looks like the Model S battery will reach that maybe after 500k miles. Hard to say. Degradation is faster in the beginning, then slows down. Both time and usage cause degradation. Really hard to tell when the battery will hit the 80% mark.

 

[msnow]

The normal average user has no clue about battery degradation. Some have heard that batteries go bad after a while and replacing them is expensive. Tesla responded by giving it an 8 year unlimited miles warranty. They put people's mind to rest. That's all they need to know. Talking about degradation and specific numbers is not helping, it is just pointing out an issue people never knew about in the first place. It would not help Tesla sell more cars. It would make uneducated people just aware of an issue.

Tesla doesn't cover normal degradation in their warranty. Whatever normal means. It is common in the battery industry to define the end of a cell's lifetime when it has 80% or less of it's original capacity. Looking at the data we have at this point, it looks like the Model S battery will reach that maybe after 500k miles. Hard to say. Degradation is faster in the beginning, then slows down. Both time and usage cause degradation. Really hard to tell when the battery will hit the 80% mark.

Pretty much what I said in post #2.