Tesla blog post: AWD Motor Power and Torque Specifications

[PatD]

I think they should fix it for free. I don't think they will. Otherwise they wouldn't have advertised the L upgrade for $5k+.

If they DID fix it for free, they wouldn't be able to keep up with orders for the S, X or III when it comes out. The goodwill would be astonishing and consumers would be standing in line to buy as if it were an Apple event.

And I agree 100% with you. The car should meet objective as well as measurable specs. I still love the car but am disappointed in that one LARGE area.

 

[qwk]

If this is true and because of the posts now in snippiness it is utterly ridiculous....

Not that anyone likely would care, but if that is indeed true I give up on this community as of now. Friggin cult....

It never used to be like this. This forum was once one of the best forums on the net. Now it's one of the worst. If you use your head and make posts that make nothing but sense, but they don't praise Tesla, and disagree with a mod, there are problems. Kind of like ISIS, you disagree, off with your head....

I know the mods volunteer and donate their time etc., but knowledgable people(the ones that make the forum succesfull in the first place) don't flock to forums because of moderators. It's kind of like shoveling shat, yes it's hard work, but nobody cares because anybody can do it, and you are easily replaceable.

 

[3mp_kwh]

JB himself wrote that you can't compare gasoline cars with EV's, and that is exactly what you are doing with your strawman. That comparison is silly at best.

Isn't a strawman more likely when you eschew the accepted method, or standard, for maybe a new way of looking at things? I think you have it backwards. How would a dyno know the difference between an EV and an ICE?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think they should fix it for free. I don't think they will. Otherwise they wouldn't have advertised the L upgrade for $5k+.

If they DID fix it for free, they wouldn't be able to keep up with orders for the S, X or III when it comes out. The goodwill would be astonishing and consumers would be standing in line to buy as if it were an Apple event.

And I agree 100% with you. The car should meet objective as well as measurable specs. I still love the car but am disappointed in that one LARGE area.

Thank you. I agree. Perhaps not with the level of optimism for goodwill, but I agree there would be plenty of goodwill - and yes, fixing it in any case would be the right thing to do.

We expect the right thing from other companies, we should expect it from Tesla too.

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If this is true and because of the posts now in snippiness it is utterly ridiculous....

Not that anyone likely would care, but if that is indeed true I give up on this community as of now. Friggin cult....

It never used to be like this. This forum was once one of the best forums on the net. Now it's one of the worst. If you use your head and make posts that make nothing but sense, but they don't praise Tesla, and disagree with a mod, there are problems. Kind of like ISIS, you disagree, off with your head....

I know the mods volunteer and donate their time etc., but knowledgable people(the ones that make the forum succesfull in the first place) don't flock to forums because of moderators. It's kind of like shoveling shat, yes it's hard work, but nobody cares because anybody can do it, and you are easily replaceable.

Perhaps you could offer feedback on moderation? There is a thread about this in Site Feedback, perhaps a more appropriate avenue for that:

unhappy with moderation

 

[qwk]

Isn't a strawman more likely when you eschew the accepted method, or standard, for maybe a new way of looking at things? I think you have it backwards. How would a dyno know the difference between an EV and an ICE?

A dyno wouldn't. My point was that one cannot agree with JB's post, and then turn around and compare the two. The power of an ICE car is mostly determined by the engine as it's basically an air pump. The more fuel and air it gets, the more power it makes. An EV's power on the other hand is determined by the output of the battery. Yes, the motor makes a difference, but currently the limits are in the battery.

 

[Andyw2100]

Bans don't happen because of one incident ... and moderators cannot ban people, only site administrators can make that call. And we didn't 'get into it', I had (what I thought) was a polite disagreement.

So, can site administrators also un-ban people, if they so choose?

I certainly don't claim to have read all that wk057 may have written on the forums, or to know all that may have gone down.

I can say that I know that he has made great contributions in a number of areas. I also recognize that at times some of his posts, like posts many of us have made at times, may have crossed a line. Did he cross that line once too often? I can't say. Was he warned that he was getting close to being banned, and that further action along the same lines could result in his being banned? Again, I can't say.

What I can say is that if someone is going to argue a position that is seen as being anti-Tesla here, you'd better be pretty thick-skinned, as the posters on the pro-Tesla side, will almost certainly outnumber the posters on the anti-side, no matter the validity of the argument. And very often the posts made by those members do get nasty and do get personal. Sure, the moderators try to moderate even-handedly, but it still takes a thick skin to put up with being attacked constantly.

On top of that, I don't know of any other poster here who ever had to put up with being harassed off line, via phone calls and text messages, due to a position he or she had taken on TMC. That was just so far beyond anything reasonable, that I think if it resulted in a few extra snippy posts by wk057, perhaps the admin that banned him might want to reconsider.

The bottom line is that I feel strongly that TMC is a better community with wk057's involvement than without it. Yes, we happen to be on the same side in this particular argument, but I think even most on the other side of this argument would agree on this point. I hope the admin that banned Jason can and will reverse that action.

 

[qwk]

Thank you. I agree. Perhaps not with the level of optimism for goodwill, but I agree there would be plenty of goodwill - and yes, fixing it in any case would be the right thing to do.

We expect the right thing from other companies, we should expect it from Tesla too.

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Perhaps you could offer feedback on moderation? There is a thread about this in Site Feedback, perhaps a more appropriate avenue for that:

unhappy with moderation

I was thinking more along the lines of starting a new forum dedicated mostly to technical aspects of Tesla vehicles. That way, all of the petty drama, and nonsense is minimized, because people would actually get called out for posting stupid stuff, instead of becoming a politically correct cesspool.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A dyno wouldn't. My point was that one cannot agree with JB's post, and then turn around and compare the two. The power of an ICE car is mostly determined by the engine as it's basically an air pump. The more fuel and air it gets, the more power it makes. An EV's power on the other hand is determined by the output of the battery. Yes, the motor makes a difference, but currently the limits are in the battery.

By the way, I distinctly recall that the knowledgeable people on TMC like wk057 had already prior to Tesla's announcement determined there was a HP limit on the battery - and were surprised to see Tesla claim differently at the P85D launch.

I guess, in hindsight, this is one instance where having this on-board knowledge and a healthy skepticism and unofficial sources of information really could help us as a community steer clear of disappointment - or at least advice of such possibility.

Of course that would require there is room to really discuss even controversial topics amongst knowledgeable people, without fear of having to tiptoe around uncomfortable topics. So I hope this area improves.

 

[smac]

The bottom line is that I feel strongly that TMC is a better community with wk057's involvement than without it. Yes, we happen to be on the same side in this particular argument, but I think even most on the other side of this argument would agree on this point. I hope the admin that banned Jason can and will reverse that action.

I too feel strongly about this:

WK057 Will be missed, please can we reconsider.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I was thinking more along the lines of starting a new forum dedicated mostly to technical aspects of Tesla vehicles. That way, all of the petty drama, and nonsense is minimized, because people would actually get called out for posting stupid stuff, instead of becoming a politically correct cesspool.

While your post is controversial I'm sure, personally I too would appreciate this forum too be based on meritocracy. So I agree personally that I would appreciate knowledge and substance contribution above all other considerations - and would be disappointed to see those lost first, and only later worry about other niceties.

I have, of course, made similar arguments about TMC many times. Reality is, unfortunately, a lot of people disagree with this I think.

 

[3mp_kwh]

A dyno wouldn't. My point was that one cannot agree with JB's post, and then turn around and compare the two. The power of an ICE car is mostly determined by the engine as it's basically an air pump. The more fuel and air it gets, the more power it makes. An EV's power on the other hand is determined by the output of the battery. Yes, the motor makes a difference, but currently the limits are in the battery.

Well, as I guess as I don't agree with JB's explanation, as acceptable, everything is fine, then. Sad, to hear TMC is banning people who seem to carry the higher ground. Though I've never got one, I'd take an informed correction, with a bit of a smack down, if I at least learned something. Are we losing sight of what's important? Call me stupid.

 

[WarpedOne]

Calling you stupid is a way to get banned. A well walked path to ban.

 

[smac]

I was thinking more along the lines of starting a new forum dedicated mostly to technical aspects of Tesla vehicles. That way, all of the petty drama, and nonsense is minimized, because people would actually get called out for posting stupid stuff, instead of becoming a politically correct cesspool.

It's not just political correctness. There's a distinct conflict of interest at work with people holding significant $ value in TSLA shares.

 

[Doug_G]

It never used to be like this. This forum was once one of the best forums on the net. Now it's one of the worst. If you use your head and make posts that make nothing but sense, but they don't praise Tesla, and disagree with a mod, there are problems. Kind of like ISIS, you disagree, off with your head....

I know the mods volunteer and donate their time etc., but knowledgable people(the ones that make the forum succesfull in the first place) don't flock to forums because of moderators. It's kind of like shoveling shat, yes it's hard work, but nobody cares because anybody can do it, and you are easily replaceable.

Glad we're all so appreciated. Shall I just quit now?

Should also point out... this is off-topic.

 

[dsm363]

From what I could tell, he got into it with Bonnie and dsm363 over on the Snippiness thread and dsm363 banned him.

Umm. No. Moderators can't ban people.

 

[Andyw2100]

Glad we're all so appreciated. Shall I just quit now?

Should also point out... this is off-topic.

This will be off-topic too, but it's a direct response, and on topic to what's just transpired.

I, for one, most certainly appreciate the work that you and the other mods do. I've said so in the past, I've thanked mods personally and privately, and in my most recent post asking that wk057's banning be reconsidered I even pointed out that the mods do moderate even-handedly. You guys have a generally thankless and very difficult job, and I recognize that.

All that being said, I don't agree with the banning of wk057. I don't think his transgressions came close to warranting that kind of drastic action. I've seen far worse personal attacks, some from posters who really rarely offer anything of value to the community. I think this banning was a mistake. I hope it can and will be corrected.

 

[dsm363]

It never used to be like this. This forum was once one of the best forums on the net. Now it's one of the worst. If you use your head and make posts that make nothing but sense, but they don't praise Tesla, and disagree with a mod, there are problems. Kind of like ISIS, you disagree, off with your head....

I know the mods volunteer and donate their time etc., but knowledgable people(the ones that make the forum succesfull in the first place) don't flock to forums because of moderators. It's kind of like shoveling shat, yes it's hard work, but nobody cares because anybody can do it, and you are easily replaceable.

ISIS. Really? That's rather insulting and disrespectful of the people who are actually dying at their hands. That's a war zone. Not an Internet forum. One that is apparently the worst on the entire internet now so wish you the best. When members, however knowledgeable, lose their temper and start insulting other members, cross posting their anger in unrelated threads...etc they are asked to stop. Sometimes they don't listen. It has nothing to do with 'disagreeing with a mod'.

 

[qwk]

ISIS. Really? That's rather insulting and disrespectful of the people who are actually dying at their hands. That's a war zone. Not an Internet forum. One that is apparently the worst on the entire internet now so wish you the best. When members, however knowledge, lose their temper and start insulting other members, cross posting their anger in unrelated threads...etc they are asked to stop. Sometimes they don't listen. It has nothing to do with 'disagreeing with a mod'.

Some of these posts are not just disagreements, they are just plain silly and uninformed. Tesla has created an awesome car, but lately they have been making very bad decisions, and being extremely deceptive. There is no denying that. I'm sure most people here would agree that Tesla needs to stop with the shadyness, before thay make one too many mistakes.

We are both adults here, and you know what I meant by the Isis comment. Extremism is not cool.

 

[sorka]

You don't expect Tesla to fix the matter somehow for those who purchased with this old information?

Oh not by a long shot


What I meant by move on is that we can all stop arguing about what Tesla did or didn't mean. They've now made it public in a blog post that has further polarized the opposing views in this forum. Those that defend Tesla see their admission as clarification that hp didn't really mean hp. Those of use that are upset because the cars we paid for that didn't produce the advertised hp in terms that we as consumers would reasonably expect, i.e. a horsepower number that is actually made somewhere at some by the car are now convinced we were intentionally mislead.

The difference now is that before, I was giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt and assumed that this was just a big mistake or that they had unintentionally goofed somewhere or that they had released the cars early with the intention of fixing the power issue with a software update. After this blog, it's now clear this wasn't a mistake or a technical issue. They intentionally advertised a combined number consisting of two hp numbers that never occur at the same time.

What I meant by moving on is the debate is over and now it's time for those who were damaged by this to decide to take action or not. Some will. Some won't. All the arguments have been made....many many times. I can't tell you how many times I've caught myself in ground hog day moments when I realize that I'm responding to a forum member that already said the same thing several weeks before and the response I'm writing is the same as it was before....many times. There are literally dozens of cycles of arguments that repeat and slowly mutate over time. It's like the longest high school debate class history

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Not for free.

I read the 691 HP number the day I ordered my car. I also saw it the day I test drove my first P85D. I don't care what the number is - that car was FAST! But - how many of us spent an hour or so in the car and were just giddy with taking off from a stop light? I didn't spend enough time on highways with the car. Very disappointed with the performance of the P85D at 30+ (Or so) MPH. THAT should be fixed. The car does NOT react like it has 691 HP. Or 555 HP. Pick a number. The car is disappointing at 30+ MPH and I wish I had spent more time driving it on highways before I purchased.

Not much I can do now, other than wait to see if the L upgrade on a P85D makes a big difference. Even at that, I will have a hard time spending $5k+ to make the car what I THOUGHT I was getting.

If car companies gave cars out for a few days to test drive, I think we'd be in a different place, personally. I imagine I'm not the only person with this experience.

It wouldn't matter how much time you spent on the highway. The P85D test drive cars were speed limited to 80 MPH and start pulling back power long before you hit that limit so that the deceleration isn't abrupt. I asked about why the car didn't feel like it had almost 700 hp on the first test drive and this was the explanation that I was given.

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I mean, we can even factor in some accept of losses in there, but 555 vs. 691 probably is a bit too much.

It's only 555 at >= 90% SOC. As the SOC drops below 90%, the power drops... a lot. The P85 and 85D don't start dropping in power until they get below 60%. In the normal daily driving range SOC of the P85D, the power at the battery will vary from 555 hp down to 480 hp at the bottom of the daily driving range.

 

[qwk]

Just for the record, I didn't upgrade to the P85D(saw the pathetic 1/4 mile times), so I have no dog in this fight. I do however call it like I see it, with absolutely no bias. While I consider JB to be a genius, his blog post made me lose a ton of respect for him.