Tesla called me and told me I needed to upgrad my brand new 200A panel. Does that sound right?

[Cricket88]

So we placed an order for solar roof and 2 powerwalls for whole-house backup for our new home back in May. A couple days ago, I received a call stating that in order for us to run 2 powerwalls, we needed to upgrade our Main panel and that it would be an additional $3,500 to do so. Here is the funny thing, we actually upgraded our panel last month to a 200A Solar Ready main panel so I didn't quite understand why our panel wouldnt "work".

After going back and forth with the person that called me, he followed up with an email confirming my panel was not adequate and that my only option was to remove one powerwall and / or re-upgrade my panel again... I asked to what, and so far he has not responded...

Thoughts? For reference, we have a Leviton Solar Ready Load Center LP-120SR (200A panel)

As of now, we are contemplating dropping the Powerwalls all-together and going with a Generac 22kw instead.

 

[charlesj]

Other will chime in for sure.
You didn't mention the solar size.
I have a 200A panel with 2 PW. Solar is about 3.9kW, 1- 20A circuit for it.

 

[Cricket88]

Other will chime in for sure.
You didn't mention the solar size.
I have a 200A panel with 2 PW. Solar is about 3.9kW, 1- 20A circuit for it.

the solar wasn't the issue, but its 8.5kW... the setback is specifically in regards to the Powerwalls (running 2). They said I can go with 1 powerwall without issues.??

 

[JayClark]

I think that's fairly common with multiple PWs, and it has more to do with Utility requirements when the house is "technically" capable of producing and sending any significant power back to the grid, even if the PWs are primary only being used to power the house.

We installed four PWs, and were told we needed to upgrade our panel. At one point I saw a letter/email from our utility in response to Tesla permits request for installation, rejecting the initial design that showed using our existing 200amp panel. Because the four PWs each were requiring their own 50amp circuits, so those four PWs alone technically I guess add up to 200amps before even considering any other circuits - that seemed to be the gist of the communication, but it was technical enough I'm not sure I understood what I was reading at the time.

Weird thing is we still only have a 200amp panel & service, but it does look larger, and they added an additional subpanel for the PWs, and a separate one for the PV, and another one to bring the PWs and PV into the gateway. It's a crazy number of boxes to be honest. I know in rural areas these seem to be much simpler installs.

 

[charlesj]

the solar wasn't the issue, but its 8.5kW... the setback is specifically in regards to the Powerwalls (running 2). They said I can go with 1 powerwall without issues.??

It is curious then as I had no problem getting two on that small system.
Your solar will need two 20A circuits and the PW needs 1 30A each.
I had to replace or rather they replaced my existing 20A main breaker with a 150A main disconnect and kept my two 100A subpanel breakers in the backup panel with the two 30A.

Ask if they can replace the 200A main breaker, no panel change, with a 150A breaker to satisfy their concerns. Otherwise I just cannot understand why you cannot get two.

 

[Cricket88]

I think that's fairly common with multiple PWs, and it has more to do with Utility requirements when the house is "technically" capable of producing and sending any significant power back to the grid, even if the PWs are primary only being used to power the house.

We installed four PWs, and were told we needed to upgrade our panel. At one point I saw a letter/email from our utility in response to Tesla permits request for installation, rejecting the initial design that showed using our existing 200amp panel. Because the four PWs each were requiring their own 50amp circuits, so those four PWs alone technically I guess add up to 200amps before even considering any other circuits - that seemed to be the gist of the communication, but it was technical enough I'm not sure I understood what I was reading at the time.

Weird thing is we still only have a 200amp panel & service, but it does look larger, and they added an additional subpanel for the PWs, and a separate one for the PV, and another one to bring the PWs and PV into the gateway. It's a crazy number of boxes to be honest. I know in rural areas these seem to be much simpler installs.

I see. Thank you for sharing your experience. I wonder what the difference was between your old "200amp" panel and the 200a panel they replaced it with (aside from its "girth")... I also wonder how you can run 4 powerwalls on a 200amp panel and I can't run 2 powerwalls on mine....

 

[jrweiss98020]

I have a 9KW system with 2 PW (Seattle area), whole-house backup. Added a 240V/50A circuit for the car charger. They upgraded my panel from 100A to 200A.

 

[charlesj]

... Because the four PWs each were requiring their own 50amp circuits, ...
Weird thing is we still only have a 200amp panel & service, but it does look larger, and they added an additional subpanel for the PWs, and a separate one for the PV, and another one to bring the PWs and PV into the gateway. It's a crazy number of boxes to be honest. I know in rural areas these seem to be much simpler installs.

You have 50A breakers each for the PW? Mine is 30A.

Perhaps your subpanel is why that 200A is key. My whole house backup panel has 2-100A breakers for the two subpanels in the house. One of the subpanels has the 20A PV breaker.
Main 200A breaker only downgraded to 150A. No big deal, still lots of power capability from that main panel.

 

[charlesj]

I see. Thank you for sharing your experience. I wonder what the difference was between your old "200amp" panel and the 200a panel they replaced it with (aside from its "girth")... I also wonder how you can run 4 powerwalls on a 200amp panel and I can't run 2 powerwalls on mine....

May want to ask Tesla if you cannot keep that 200A main (any other breakers in that main panel?) and have a similar whole house backup panel like JayCark

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

@Cricket88 I suspect that you the simple words "whole house backup" sent your design via a single path requiring the main panel upgrade.

I have done much research to challenge the main panel upgrade in my house. I explored panels of different sorts. I was surprised that the multitude of panels offered only a handful actually worked. I explored 400A upgrade too because I want to see how much more it was to get from 200A to 400A. I have a underground feed with out-of-control cost risks. My installation followed the now defunct $800-2500 installation cost paradigm of old. Main panel upgrade extra $2300-$3500. The main panel upgrade is really outsourced and performed at cost. I have seen the blind quote. Tesla makes $0 on this. In the end, I reduced my expectation, and went partial, and was able to get a low cost installation for two $900. Old pricing I know, but it was going to escalate four fold, until I put a stop to it. Tesla pricing today is supposed to be fixed pricing and welfare/shared burden style averaged across all buyers. The MPU sounds to be again a special line item.

In my investigations, I concluded that solar specific panel upgrade does very little to help with Powerwalls. That's just me talking, so I know others will challenge me. Tesla's ideal installation setup, is a plain Jane meter box. You heard it here correctly. Plain meter with NO distribution. I understand what I said doesn't help your current state but the next will.

Can you get everything you need onto a 125A branch circuit? Take the new panel you have drop drop everything you need onto that branch circuit. Not everything will fit. This includes your A/C if you have multiple units, and all your EV charging. Also, you might not be able to electrify your house entirely anymore (return to gas water heaters and remove that 30A circuit breaker). Sorry can't do that to the dryer because it usually calculated in if you have a dryer that uses gas. Here I am trying to get you on paper without having to demonstrate via load calculation used (like when a house gets built and there is unknown habits if you know what I mean) as a load test isn't straight forward. I am pretty excited with seeing what hybrid heat pump water rebates will be in 2021, so they do make 15A units that are missing the resistance heating elements, so not all lost for electrification of the house. I am not liking the natural gas bill. Again, reduce your whole house backup requirements.

I hope this helps.

 

[Cricket88]

Can you get everything you need onto a 125A branch circuit? Take the new panel you have drop drop everything you need onto that branch circuit. Not everything will fit. This includes your A/C if you have multiple units, and all your EV charging. Also, you might not be able to electrify your house entirely anymore (return to gas water heaters and remove that 30A circuit breaker). Sorry can't do that to the dryer because it usually calculated in if you have a dryer that uses gas. Here I am trying to get you on paper without having to demonstrate via load calculation used (like when a house gets built and there is unknown habits if you know what I mean) as a load test isn't straight forward. I am pretty excited with seeing what hybrid heat pump water rebates will be in 2021, so they do make 15A units that are missing the resistance heating elements, so not all lost for electrification of the house. I am not liking the natural gas bill. Again, reduce your whole house backup requirements.

I hope this helps.

This is my main panel in question. The only branch circuit im interested in "backing up" would be the 100a breaker (top left) that serves my subpanel. The other 4 breakers in the panel serve my A/C, Oven, Tesla Charger, and a dormant 15a breaker that powers the data hub for the panel itself... I don't intend on running our AC or using the oven (or charging my car) when there is a power outage, I only want my fridge to keep running and for my lights/outlets to continue working... I have asked if we can simply just back that 100a circuit with 1 powerwall instead. Will see what they say.

 

[jjrandorin]

This is my main panel in question. The only branch circuit im interested in "backing up" would be the 100a breaker (top left) that serves my subpanel. The other 4 breakers in the panel serve my A/C, Oven, Tesla Charger, and a dormant 15a breaker that powers the data hub for the panel itself... I don't intend on running our AC or using the oven (or charging my car) when there is a power outage, I only want my fridge to keep running and for my lights/outlets to continue working... I have asked if we can simply just back that 100a circuit with 1 powerwall instead. Will see what they say.


View attachment 564975

Im confused a bit, because I have 200amp service, and 2 powerwalls, with an 8.7kW PV and it works fine. Everything in my home is backed up except my 60amp tesla wall connector. I dont know why you would need a panel upgrade, unless its something like @SMAlset had, which I think had something to do with how the cables entered the panel or something like that.

I wont pretend to know things I dont, here, but there must be some other concern other than just "200 amp service" and cant have 2 powerwalls.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

@Cricket88 I want to confirm with you this. Did you take pictures of your new panel and send them to Tesla? If not, they are still using your old panel in their design. If you did the only thing I see is that you have backfeed issues... they are crawling for that extra 25A in busbar capacity. Like I said above, solar dedicated panels aren't as cracked up as they are led to be. The next best thing for panels is a 200A panel with a 225A bus. It must have a subfeed lugs in listed in the panel cover. I was faced with the similar decision to drop to 1 PW and a handful of breakers, which Tesla also needed to reprice due to the distance to the subpanel. Post a photo of the label inside the panel door will ya?

 

[SMAlset]

OP SMAlset here and yes we got "the main panel upgrade required" notice from our City even though we had a 200A service. Our main panel was old, from 2004 when the house was built. All of our panel specs had long ago fallen off the inside and so we had no real idea what we had (mfgr/model) other than it was 200A service and so Tesla was kind of blind going into it as well. City had to pull our builder plans and when they did and looked up the panel that was installed that's when it hit the crapper. Tesla was told it had to be an end feed panel (ours was center) and for solar we needed to have a 225A bus bar. I suspect the bus bar might be your problem but only guessing here. They do make 200A panels which only have a 200A bus bar and that apparently was what we had. When I looked up the product you indicated you had installed (LP120-SR) the maximum ampacity is 200, not like the LP422-SR, which is 225. This would be very unfortunate if you had this installed on your own and you or your electrician (assuming not Tesla Energy?) did not know what your city would require to meet their code or standards.

If Tesla was responsible for installing the main panel upgrade, I would ask them to install the correctly sized one at their expense. At the point we hired an electrician to do our upgrade we had already heard back from the city rejecting permit because of our old panel and telling us why, so our electrician was able to order the correct one for us.

I have no idea how Generac works but I thought what was explained to us was that it was the solar portion of our project was going to require the higher rated bus. The main panel we had installed FWIW was an Eaton MBE2040PV200BTF (flush model otherwise 200BTS), solar ready. On the panel diagram it shows the Distribution Panel is rated for 225A.

For anyone wanting to look up his panel, here's Leviton's webpage for it: LP120-SR - 12 Space Outdoor All-in-One Solar-Ready Load Center with Main Breaker in Gray - Leviton "Product Overview" shows all the products they offer under this Solar Ready Load Center.

 

[n8dagr8]

Im confused a bit, because I have 200amp service, and 2 powerwalls, with an 8.7kW PV and it works fine. Everything in my home is backed up except my 60amp tesla wall connector. I dont know why you would need a panel upgrade, unless its something like @SMAlset had, which I think had something to do with how the cables entered the panel or something like that.

I wont pretend to know things I dont, here, but there must be some other concern other than just "200 amp service" and cant have 2 powerwalls.

Would they not backup the 60A Tesla charger because of......? Powerwalls can't handle the draw?....

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

OP SMAlset here and yes we got "the main panel upgrade required" notice from our City even though we had a 200A service. Our main panel was old, from 2004 when the house was built. All of our panel specs had long ago fallen off the inside and so we had no real idea what we had (mfgr/model) other than it was 200A service and so Tesla was kind of blind going into it as well. City had to pull our builder plans and when they did and looked up the panel that was installed that's when it hit the crapper. Tesla was told it had to be an end feed panel (ours was center) and for solar we needed to have a 225A bus bar. I suspect the bus bar might be your problem but only guessing here. They do make 200A panels which only have a 200A bus bar and that apparently was what we had. When I looked up the product you indicated you had installed (LP120-SR) the maximum ampacity is 200, not like the LP422-SR, which is 225. This would be very unfortunate if you had this installed on your own and you or your electrician (assuming not Tesla Energy?) did not know what your city would require to meet their code or standards.

If Tesla was responsible for installing the main panel upgrade, I would ask them to install the correctly sized one at their expense. At the point we hired an electrician to do our upgrade we had already heard back from the city rejecting permit because of our old panel and telling us why, so our electrician was able to order the correct one for us.

I have no idea how Generac works but I thought what was explained to us was that it was the solar portion of our project was going to require the higher rated bus. The main panel we had installed FWIW was an Eaton MBE2040PV200BTF (flush model otherwise 200BTS), solar ready. On the panel diagram it shows the Distribution Panel is rated for 225A.

For anyone wanting to look up his panel, here's Leviton's webpage for it: LP120-SR - 12 Space Outdoor All-in-One Solar-Ready Load Center with Main Breaker in Gray - Leviton "Product Overview" shows all the products they offer under this Solar Ready Load Center.

I looked for five minutes and couldn’t find the label. That said same story here 2004 home same story as @SMAlset sparing the details. I have a main lug service panel which allows back feed up the conductors into the house. Yes 200A back feed. There might be a kit available to remove the main breaker. The TEG is behind a 125A breaker in the service panel. My panel has a main breaker add on kit that is no longer made. The OP @Cricket88 has less than six throws in the panel so there’s a chance the above will work.

 

[Cricket88]

@Cricket88 I want to confirm with you this. Did you take pictures of your new panel and send them to Tesla? If not, they are still using your old panel in their design. If you did the only thing I see is that you have backfeed issues... they are crawling for that extra 25A in busbar capacity. Like I said above, solar dedicated panels aren't as cracked up as they are led to be. The next best thing for panels is a 200A panel with a 225A bus. It must have a subfeed lugs in listed in the panel cover. I was faced with the similar decision to drop to 1 PW and a handful of breakers, which Tesla also needed to reprice due to the distance to the subpanel. Post a photo of the label inside the panel door will ya?

No, they received the photos for the new panel. When we first moved in, the previous "200a" panel was deemed unsafe (Zinsco/Sylvania) by the home inspection due to its recalled status so that was the very first thing we changed out... We actually didn't even consider going with Tesla (bad previous experience at our previous house), but with the new Solar roof v3 seemingly available, we decided to give Tesla another try. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but had we known this would be an issue, we would have had Tesla arrange the panel upgrade for us.... However, I really do like our Leviton panels since they meter all the circuits wirelessly! I don't intend on losing the panels so I would prefer to downgrade to 1 powerwall (if that even makes sense at this point for us), or simply just getting the solar roof and getting a $6k Generac (Natural Gas) generator instead...

Would 1 powerwall even be worth doing for a small household of 2 adults/2 kids and around 2600sqft? we dont really use the A/C much and most appliances are on gas...

 

[Cricket88]

@Cricket88 I want to confirm with you this. Did you take pictures of your new panel and send them to Tesla? If not, they are still using your old panel in their design. If you did the only thing I see is that you have backfeed issues... they are crawling for that extra 25A in busbar capacity. Like I said above, solar dedicated panels aren't as cracked up as they are led to be. The next best thing for panels is a 200A panel with a 225A bus. It must have a subfeed lugs in listed in the panel cover. I was faced with the similar decision to drop to 1 PW and a handful of breakers, which Tesla also needed to reprice due to the distance to the subpanel. Post a photo of the label inside the panel door will ya?

I think you are on the correct track. I am still at work attempting to finish my taxes (and distracting myself lol)... so I wont be able to take a photo anytime soon... However, the rep did mention something about backfeeding needing to be 80% of capacity. Thats where he lost me.

However, that would completely suck if I picked the wrong panel (or if Leviton didn't have an adequate option for accomodating things like this. I was told to get a Solar Ready Panel and thats what we did!!! We went with Leviton for the "smart" features...

 

[CrazyRabbit]

i don't know why they want to upgrade your main panel. with the new gateway can't they just land your solar and powerwall's on the internal panel board.

 

[Cricket88]

i don't know why they want to upgrade your main panel. with the new gateway can't they just land your solar and powerwall's on the internal panel board.

not really sure since I am not privy on how these systems work. But I will bring this up to them when/if they get back to me anytime soon!