Tesla changed order from PW+ to PW2 - Worth it to still move forward?

[skiingj]

Would appreciate comments. Today Tesla told me accept Powerwall 2 or cancel my two-month-old order. You can all imagine the headache most of us endure with Tesla customer service. It’s been a terrible experience. I had to call regularly to address issues and move things along.

My plans got submitted for a 8.12KwH w/ two Powerwall +’s. The city asked for more documentation, they have never come across a request for PW+. Telsa re-submitted with new docs on PW+, BUT they removed the PW+ from the plans and replaced them with PW2. Never did they consulted me, and it has been a headache the last couple days trying to understand why. I just got off the phone with an advisor who was nice and knowledge. But in the end, it was too bad take PW2 or nothing. His argument is the city denied PW+ and instead of working with the city they switched to PW2. Tesla uploaded three docs about PW+, and a day later the new plans were uploaded without PW+. It was a simple request from the city to provide PW+; UL listing, install manual, and spec sheet.

I’m so frustrated, I want to cancel my order. What do you all think?

Some of my options are:

1. Cancel, not a big deal, I would have loved to have solar but in the end, this pisses me off.

2. Ask to remove PW’s. When I ordered it was not a requirement to include PW’s.

3. Wait for city to approve/reject current plans and try to add back the PW+. The city told me some of the plans still reference PW+ and they will work to approve PW+. But Telsa appears adamant no PW+.

4. _____________________________________________________________


Appreciate the feedback.

 

[Southpasfan]

The distinction between the two PWs is rather small. If you are even considering cancelling a two month old order based on this, my advice is to cancel immediately.

You are not cut out for a home improvement project of this magnitude. Also, when the system is installed and the inevitable performance issues arise, again, if this is your level of tolerance save yourself the headache and wait five or ten years to see if the technology becomes more like a commodity.

 

[astrorob]

dang man, that's harsh. IDK if s/he's "not cut out for a home improvement project of this magnitude", but maybe "not cut out for a home improvement project managed by tesla." most human beings probably are not cause man this can be a struggle.

personally i would just do it - although i dropped a lot of coin on it i feel pretty good that i'm not drawing any grid power from 3pm-12am every day, at least now during the summer.

 

[jjrandorin]

I’m so frustrated, I want to cancel my order. What do you all think?

You already said what you want to do. You are the one spending the money, if you are not happy, then you should cancel. I should say, however, for full disclosure, I dont quite understand "going to the internet" to either get people to talk me into, or out of, some decision that is 10s of thousands of dollars.

You didnt disclose if the change impacts performance in any way, like, does having powerwall 2s instead of powerwall+ prevent you from backing up the AC or something?

Other than that, its just "I wanted this, and tesla did that", which, if you dont like it, you are the one with the money, so you should do what your heart tells you to do. No amount of people saying "its fine for me" or "tesla sucks !$E@$@!" impacts how YOU feel about your specific situation.

You already said you wanted to cancel, so it sounds like you are looking for convincing otherwise for some reason. While I am happy with my system, and tesla in general, none of that matters for your project and your money, so since you said "I want to cancel" thats exactly what you should do.

 

[Southpasfan]

dang man, that's harsh. IDK if s/he's "not cut out for a home improvement project of this magnitude", but maybe "not cut out for a home improvement project managed by tesla." most human beings probably are not cause man this can be a struggle.

personally i would just do it - although i dropped a lot of coin on it i feel pretty good that i'm not drawing any grid power from 3pm-12am every day, at least now during the summer.

You're right, that was harsh and I am sorry.

That's what you get for posting in the middle of othewise annoying work.

Anyway, the underlying point, put with some empathy, is that my guess is that the city/utility has not gotten their heads around the main feature that they would care about with the PW +, which is the integrated shut off switch which is placed into the main panel.

Its quite a bit different (from a permitting perspective) than the standard Gateway with a cut off panel, sometimes including bladed disconnects, which is the install with PW 2s. The actual electricians on here can probably explain better, but permitting departments are very wary of this whole concept, and virtually all of them insist on serious switches where the solar and PWs can be physically isolated from the grid.

The new PW+ system intentionally seeks to get around the need for excess panels and switches. Anyway.

Its understandable, and might not be something that you could convince the city to accept n any reasonable time.

Now, its possible another installer would do a better job explaining this, but astrorob probably speaks the truth - you might not be cut out for one managed by Tesla.

But I think I also had a point in there, if you have already ordered the system and yet, have not researched enough to understand why the city would do that, then the heavy lifting involved in a solar project might not be for you. Its not that the issues are not present in every project, whether done by Tesla or someone else.

 

[h2ofun]

You're right, that was harsh and I am sorry.

That's what you get for posting in the middle of othewise annoying work.

Anyway, the underlying point, put with some empathy, is that my guess is that the city/utility has not gotten their heads around the main feature that they would care about with the PW +, which is the integrated shut off switch which is placed into the main panel.

Its quite a bit different (from a permitting perspective) than the standard Gateway with a cut off panel, sometimes including bladed disconnects, which is the install with PW 2s. The actual electricians on here can probably explain better, but permitting departments are very wary of this whole concept, and virtually all of them insist on serious switches where the solar and PWs can be physically isolated from the grid.

The new PW+ system intentionally seeks to get around the need for excess panels and switches. Anyway.

Its understandable, and might not be something that you could convince the city to accept n any reasonable time.

Now, its possible another installer would do a better job explaining this, but astrorob probably speaks the truth - you might not be cut out for one managed by Tesla.

I see nothing wrong with the PW2,and a nice SE inverter. Personally, powerwall+ is too new and I see too many issues. I love I do not have the tesla inverter stuff, just too many issues. I love I have SE inverters.

 

[Southpasfan]

I see nothing wrong with the PW2,and a nice SE inverter. Personally, powerwall+ is too new and I see too many issues. I love I do not have the tesla inverter stuff, just too many issues. I love I have SE inverters.

Yet anther good point. After following the whole PW + thread, I would say the main reasons Tesla came out with it are (a) it simplifies installation for Tesla, and the homeowner may essentially get one less box on the wall, (b) it uses the new Tesla inverter, and (c) the actual PW + has an increased output which helps in the case of starting up AC units.

Essentially, it makes one or two PW installs better than Pw2s if, and its a big if, the homeowner otherwise had a start up issue.

The cost, as you have seen, is (1) the city might not like the new shut off system, and (2) instead of the tried and true Solar Edge inverters you get a new inverter in its first year on the market. H20 points out there is good argument that the PW2 is a more solid system.

 

[jjrandorin]

If I was buying "right now" Unless powerwall+ actually saved me some money by doing something like letting me buy 2 powerwalls instead of 3 due to my start up loads (as an example), I would want powerwall 2s instead of powerwall+.

I am also not a person that is normally risk averse to technology, in general, but when you get into this price range of stuff I usually want something that is proven vs something that is brand new.

I am perfectly willing to have that conversation, but my original post was because the OP had already made a decision, and appeared to be looking to either get it validated, or get "talked off the proverbial ledge". Thats a different conversation than "hey everyone, I was going to get powerwall+ and tesla changed the plans to powerwall 2, anything I should be on the lookout for?

Thats a different conversation than "XXX sucks so bad, I want to cancel, should I?" One is a question, the other is a decision that is already made and looking to be validated.

 

[glide]

Cancel. Dealing with Tesla Energy is 1000x worse than Tesla Auto. And that’s saying something.

 

[Southpasfan]

Cancel. Dealing with Tesla Energy is 1000x worse than Tesla Auto. And that’s saying something.

Ok, I will bite. Can't resist.

The reason I said the original poster might not be cut out for this is that when you deal with Tesla energy you are dealing with a contractor.

Tesla was no worse than any contractor I have ever dealt with, and light years ahead in terms of pricing, since in my experience on any significant job you are guaranteed, guar-an-f-in-teed, to have significant cost overruns once the project is started and there is nothing you can do about it, and Tesla, even with the solar roof debacle, has no my knowledge (limited by this board) never attempted a price increase in the middle of a project.

Right now, I had to go through three plumbers over as many weeks just to get a bid on moving some plumbing around, probably about a $6k total job. Now, its a white hot market for contractors, I understand that, but I am also trying to get ahold of a general contractor to get a bid on adding a window and can't even get a call back.

This is standard - it happens all the time. There is no point in getting upset about it. Some people are not cut out for massive home improvement projects.

So when someone wants to cancel an entire order over PW + v. PW2 it really sounds like either they have made up their mind as jjrandorian said, or they should not have bothered in the first place.

How would the original poster react when the kitchen is torn down to the studs and you are handed a cost overrun of $15K? I will tell you how to react, you get out your checkbook and pay. Major home improvement projects are not for the faint hearted, and they are really not for the easily angered.

My wife's ex gets angry at the slightest reason. He has also never even attempted the most basic of home improvement projects, not even painting. Frankly, it is a very wise decision on his part. If he attempted to remodel the house he lives in someone would get hurt, that would be my prediction.

 

[glide]

Ok, I will bite. Can't resist.

The reason I said the original poster might not be cut out for this is that when you deal with Tesla energy you are dealing with a contractor.

Tesla was no worse than any contractor I have ever dealt with, and light years ahead in terms of pricing, since in my experience on any significant job you are guaranteed, guar-an-f-in-teed, to have significant cost overruns once the project is started and there is nothing you can do about it, and Tesla, even with the solar roof debacle, has no my knowledge (limited by this board) never attempted a price increase in the middle of a project.

Right now, I had to go through three plumbers over as many weeks just to get a bid on moving some plumbing around, probably about a $6k total job. Now, its a white hot market for contractors, I understand that, but I am also trying to get ahold of a general contractor to get a bid on adding a window and can't even get a call back.

This is standard - it happens all the time. There is no point in getting upset about it. Some people are not cut out for massive home improvement projects.

So when someone wants to cancel an entire order over PW + v. PW2 it really sounds like either they have made up their mind as jjrandorian said, or they should not have bothered in the first place.

How would the original poster react when the kitchen is torn down to the studs and you are handed a cost overrun of $15K? I will tell you how to react, you get out your checkbook and pay. Major home improvement projects are not for the faint hearted, and they are really not for the easily angered.

My wife's ex gets angry at the slightest reason. He has also never even attempted the most basic of home improvement projects, not even painting. Frankly, it is a very wise decision on his part. If he attempted to remodel the house he lives in someone would get hurt, that would be my prediction.

I found them to be orders of magnitude worse than any contractor I have ever dealt with.

So much so that I cancelled my Solar install and two vehicle reservations. YMMV.

 

[slcasner]

For my home with a combo meter box and main service panel, the PW+ with its Backup Switch that mounts under the meter is a strong requirement. The alternative would be much more complicated because all the branch circuits would have to move to a new panel, and mounting that panel and routing the circuits to it would be quite difficult. My order has been pending since Thanksgiving* and I have not been able to get an answer from Tesla about whether the PW+ would be approved by my city and PG&E, so I am trying to communicate with both of those entities to find out whether the Backup Switch would be approved. PG&E asked for certifications and specs which I don't have, but I did provide the photo of the certification label that was posted in the Powerwall+ thread here.

* My roof has an edge with an angle that is not 90° over a bay window, and they are not sure if their flashing components will work. I have asked whether that means they are working on developing more components, or if later they are going to come back and say "Sorry", but I haven't been able to get an answer to that question.

 

[skiingj]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I'm cut out for projects. I might now know a great deal but always know to ask for advice which is why I posted. I've gone through three new home constructions and built pools right after move-in. I have completed owner build pools and can certainly handle large projects simultaneously.

Just frustrated I'm not getting the latest tech and probably paid more for it. Tesla customer service stinks and it’s also frustrating dealing with them. Advisors who never advise… Two months and we are just submitting plans. Yes, I can be impatient. I understand they are busy.

My city just wants PW+ docs and some specs. I feel Tesla is taking the easy way out. My city is very easy to work with.

I must say I don’t understand all the tech, but have a basic understanding. When I asked Telsa if PW2 (self-power mode) could power my AC and charge my EV at night he could only comment on the AC.

Again I appreciate the feedback as I’m certainly learning from it.

Hi h2ofun. We are neighbors. Your array must be visible from space. I’m jealous of your system. I read some of your experience in your thread. Who did you use for your projects? Do you give tours

 

[jjrandorin]

Your powerwalls will not be charging your EV at night, no matter which one you get. A lot of people think they want this, but unless you are talking about a hybrid with a VERY small battery, planning on using powerwalls to charge your car is like planning to charge D batteries with AA batteries. Possible, but not something one would plan to do on a regular basis.

Thats why they couldnt tell if you could "charge your EV". 2 powerwalls ( for example ) are 27k of storage, which is about 1/2 the battery capacity of even the shortest range model 3. The powerwalls (theoretically) would also be powering the rest of your home, if you have a TOU plan.

TL ; DR you wont be charging your car from powerwalls, no matter how many you get, unless you got enough powerwalls to have MORE storage than your car, which for a LR Model 3 would be more than approximately 75k of powerwalls, or 6+ of them. Even then, you likely are not charging your car from your powerwalls on a regular basis, only in an emergency.

On a separate note, if you want to have a discussion around what we think about powerwall 2 vs powerwall+ we likely need to change the thread title to something reflecting that, vs asking whether you should cancel your order.

 

[skiingj]

Thanks jjrandorin. Sure please change the title. Love to hear everyone's thoughts. Its very helpful. I've simmered down a bit

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks jjrandorin. Sure please change the title. Love to hear everyone's thoughts. Its very helpful. I've simmered down a bit

I changed it to something that still captures the question it appears you wanted to ask. If this one doesnt match what you were asking, let me know in a PM or something and I can change it again.

 

[h2ofun]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I'm cut out for projects. I might now know a great deal but always know to ask for advice which is why I posted. I've gone through three new home constructions and built pools right after move-in. I have completed owner build pools and can certainly handle large projects simultaneously.

Just frustrated I'm not getting the latest tech and probably paid more for it. Tesla customer service stinks and it’s also frustrating dealing with them. Advisors who never advise… Two months and we are just submitting plans. Yes, I can be impatient. I understand they are busy.

My city just wants PW+ docs and some specs. I feel Tesla is taking the easy way out. My city is very easy to work with.

I must say I don’t understand all the tech, but have a basic understanding. When I asked Telsa if PW2 (self-power mode) could power my AC and charge my EV at night he could only comment on the AC.

Again I appreciate the feedback as I’m certainly learning from it.

Hi h2ofun. We are neighbors. Your array must be visible from space. I’m jealous of your system. I read some of your experience in your thread. Who did you use for your projects? Do you give tours

Personally, I have not read anything that says the PW+ is any new technology. ANd I LOVE new technology.

I worked in Roseville for 20 years. I am up at Lake of the Pines. If you want to come up, and I can show you my setup. Until I get the latest panels approved, I am not assuming I will be able to keep them. But, with the heat wave we are having, it is SO nice to have the wife SO happy we have the house set at 72. Interesting for the first time the batteries have stopped by used, down to 13%. Boy do the AC units suck power.

I think many are just trying to get way more from the batteries than they really are intended to be able to be used with the technology of them now, and the limited capacity they hold. Personally they are a lot more work than I believe they are worth. We do not lose power that often. And for the short amount of times we do, my generator works fine Now, I believe you are not on PGE right? Getting forced to EV2-a just for batteries, IMO, is not worth the cost and use hassles.

was thinking, my comments about batteries only apply if I have NEM with retail pricing. If NEM3 changes stuff, for NEM1 and 2 also, then batteries
are well worth the money

 

[jjrandorin]

Back on thread topic,

OP, I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but if it were me, I would want powerwall 2 vs powerwall+, unless powerwall+ unless my specific electrical home infrastructure / devices dictated needing a powerwall+.

Powerwall+ is supposed to be able to provide a larger amount of start up current, which could help in starting up things like AC units or pumps. Other than that, its supposed to make it easier "for tesla" to install, but I dont particularly care about that, nor do I care about "one less thing on the wall".

If it were me, I would focus on whether starting your AC or any pumps needs the powerwall+ for the amount of powerwalls you intend to purchase. If not, I would actually welcome the change, myself.

 

[jjrandorin]

(moderator note: removed off topic posts, including my own)

 

[glide]

(moderator note: removed off topic posts, including my own)

So you decided to put on your mod hat after all even though no forum rules were violated and I was simply expressing my opinion to OP.

You injected a personal attack into the conversation and then removed any posts critical of Tesla from the conversation. Well played