Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla Class 8 Semi Truck Thoughts

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Looks kinda small to me compared to the semi next to it. What do you think?

It's a perspective thing. If you look at the original picture, the two trucks are about the same size, though the chassis of the Tesla truck looks shorter. With the Photoshop job, the Tesla truck was taken off the flatbed and placed in the foreground. The truck behind is the same size, but because it appears behind the other truck, your brain tells you the Tesla truck is nearer and should appear larger. Because they are really the same size, the truck in the foreground is interpreted as smaller.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Off Shore
Can't wait for Oct. 16th
Unknown-5.jpg
 
Can't wait for Oct. 16th
View attachment 253537
Where did you get that image from if I may ask? I think the trailerpart between the three trailerwheels and the truckwheels could be perfect for a swappeble battery!
I hope the trailer will also get regenerating brakes that works with software instead of mechanical.
I wonder why the trailer has different wheels compared to the truck itself.
I can't wait for this truckcombination to exist.

*We do have to wait about a month longer somehow, because Musk likes to make a entire new grid for Porto Rico, with Tesla batteries and green energy and such.
 
Some operators may be able to use custom trailers, but the Tesla truck will have to work with existing trailers too.
I think almost all trailers could easely contain a standard battery, just like buses, who can also use a similar battery. this helps it a lot to make such a market a lot cheaper and more fast.
Also, if the battery size and voltage remains the same, there can even come new batteries that keep working with the old trucks.
 
Adding weight to the trailer also reduces payload. Highway regulations have limits on trailer weight, usually per axle. Put batteries in the trailer and the truck can carry less cargo weight. For some light cargoes, this makes no difference and adds ballast, but for most hauling needs, this could be a problem.
 
Adding weight to the trailer also reduces payload. Highway regulations have limits on trailer weight, usually per axle. Put batteries in the trailer and the truck can carry less cargo weight. For some light cargoes, this makes no difference and adds ballast, but for most hauling needs, this could be a problem.

I don't think they will need a massive battery. Using the byd t9 is a class 8 semi with 180KWh and 100mi range as a proxy. If you scale that 3.5x in terms of range and say Tesla is a bit more efficient, so 600KWh of battery would do. At 2c, the 80% for the 600KWh would charge in 30 minutes. So my thought is that you range charge while loading the truck for 350mi range and drive for 5 hours where you quick charge to 80% while taking a mandatory meal break, which gives enough range for the final 3 hours of driving. If you stop to sleep, you can charge to 100% for the next leg. My main point is that all you need is 350 miles of range for 5 hours of driving in almost any conditions. Truckers these days are not allowed to drive more then 8 hours a day for safety and like any job, there are mandatory meal breaks.

Looking at the supposed design, is there room for 600KWh of pack? Maybe 200KWh under the cab and 2 power pack sized cabinets behind the cab that house 200KWh each should do it. Just don't see how you fit much more then that or need much more then that. As long as Tesla can build the charging network.. Anyone think they can do that? I think this is where the mystery charger that pumps coolent in while charging with a massive cable that comes up from the ground. You know the famed child's play charger? Could certainly see 1000KW+ charging from a system like that where the cable is massive and coolent is pumped through the whole system which keeps the pack management system in the semi simpler, lighter and focused on driving efficiency and not caring about charging because it has external help. This will also create a captive audience of customers who must charge with Tesla, which is where Tesla will make all their profits. Each semi will consume 34x the amount of energy as the average model 3 so 100,000 semis would be equivalent to 3.4 million model 3s. All of that for only 10x the batteries. Much more efficient use of capital and much higher margins from charging, as long as Tesla also uses solar for the chargers.

Can't wait for Oct 26th.
 
I don't think they will need a massive battery. Using the byd t9 is a class 8 semi with 180KWh and 100mi range as a proxy. If you scale that 3.5x in terms of range and say Tesla is a bit more efficient, so 600KWh of battery would do. At 2c, the 80% for the 600KWh would charge in 30 minutes. So my thought is that you range charge while loading the truck for 350mi range and drive for 5 hours where you quick charge to 80% while taking a mandatory meal break, which gives enough range for the final 3 hours of driving. If you stop to sleep, you can charge to 100% for the next leg. My main point is that all you need is 350 miles of range for 5 hours of driving in almost any conditions. Truckers these days are not allowed to drive more then 8 hours a day for safety and like any job, there are mandatory meal breaks.

Looking at the supposed design, is there room for 600KWh of pack? Maybe 200KWh under the cab and 2 power pack sized cabinets behind the cab that house 200KWh each should do it. Just don't see how you fit much more then that or need much more then that. As long as Tesla can build the charging network.. Anyone think they can do that? I think this is where the mystery charger that pumps coolent in while charging with a massive cable that comes up from the ground. You know the famed child's play charger? Could certainly see 1000KW+ charging from a system like that where the cable is massive and coolent is pumped through the whole system which keeps the pack management system in the semi simpler, lighter and focused on driving efficiency and not caring about charging because it has external help. This will also create a captive audience of customers who must charge with Tesla, which is where Tesla will make all their profits. Each semi will consume 34x the amount of energy as the average model 3 so 100,000 semis would be equivalent to 3.4 million model 3s. All of that for only 10x the batteries. Much more efficient use of capital and much higher margins from charging, as long as Tesla also uses solar for the chargers.

Can't wait for Oct 26th.

Hasn't the reveal been pushed back to November?

The problem is weight, not space. Laws vary from state to state, but typical weight per axle is 17,000 lbs per axle except the front which is 12,000 lbs. Gross weight is limited to 80,000 lbs. A tractor weighs 17,000 to 22,000 pounds and trailers around 10,000 pounds empty. Typical payloads are 48-50,000 lbs.

Numbers here:
How much does the tractor weigh?
and
Tractor Trailer Axle Weights - Heavy Haul Trucking

A 100 KWh pack for the Model S/X weighs about 1300 lbs. A 600 KWh pack would weight around 7800 lbs, which would fit in the tractor fairly easily and would make the tractor about the same weight as a current tractor (assuming about 10-12,000 lbs for the rest of the tractor). In a cabover tractor the ICE is under the cab and you could probably get around 600 KWh in that space. There is also space in the frame. The frames are usually about a foot high and have the drive train in them and sometimes fuel tanks. With no driveshaft, transmission, or fuel tanks, all that space can be battery pack if desired. The only other thing needed in that space would be a few cross member that could easily be support pieces for the battery.

Putting 1000 KWh of battery in the current dimensions of a tractor would be pretty easy. The biggest limitation starts to become weight. A 1 MWh battery pack is going to weigh in the neighborhood of 13000 lbs which would likely make it the heaviest tractor on the road. The tradeoff becomes hauling a light load a long distance, or a heavy load a shorter distance.

Putting batteries under the trailer can be done from a space point of view. There is plenty of space down there. The problem is adding 7000 lbs of weight to the trailer cuts into the payload weight. Most operators are not going to be willing to give up 15-20% of their payload weight for extra range. For some applications, like low density cargo, it might make sense, but most operators want to maximize payload.
 
Weight and cost. But most trucks probably don't run near 80,000 lbs. I'm going to guess that a typical Walmart semi delivery is 40-50k lbs. If that is true, Walmart would be interested only in cost per mile. They could run a 1 mWh of batteries in a semi if that made financial sense.

The prototype looks like it can get 400-600kWh behind the driver, using the power pack as a volumetric guide. Tesla can do a longer wheelbase if needed to add capacity.
The volume of a sleeper cab type semi is considerably greater than most people realize. Probably more space than Tesla can afford to fill with battery.
 
Hasn't the reveal been pushed back to November?

correct

Elon MuskVerified account @elonmusk Sep 13
Tesla Semi truck unveil & test ride tentatively scheduled for Oct 26th in Hawthorne. Worth seeing this beast in person. It's unreal.

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk Oct 6
Tesla Semi unveil now Nov 16. Diverting resources to fix Model 3 bottlenecks & increase battery production for Puerto Rico & other affected areas.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: pilotSteve
Weight and cost. But most trucks probably don't run near 80,000 lbs. I'm going to guess that a typical Walmart semi delivery is 40-50k lbs. If that is true, Walmart would be interested only in cost per mile. They could run a 1 mWh of batteries in a semi if that made financial sense.

The prototype looks like it can get 400-600kWh behind the driver, using the power pack as a volumetric guide. Tesla can do a longer wheelbase if needed to add capacity.
The volume of a sleeper cab type semi is considerably greater than most people realize. Probably more space than Tesla can afford to fill with battery.

Funny you should mention Walmart delivery trucks. A friend of mine does exactly that for Walmart and for some reason the weight did come up when he was here this summer. I believe he said the trucks were typically 40,000 pounds, though I don't recall if he meant total or just payload. The type of stuff those store delivery trucks haul is lower density than something like lumber or rebar.

The advantage with a store delivery truck is they stop at several stores in a day. It takes some time to unload the cargo for that store and the driver usually has a union mandated break. It would be easy to put a fast charger on the loading dock and give the truck a boost while it's unloading. Some stores are putting solar on the roof now, so that would make it even cheaper to run electric trucks.

The store might not want to dedicate the power for a charger that runs 350 KW, but they could put in one or two circuits capable of 150 KW which would give the truck another 100 miles or so in an hour of sitting idle. With that model, a semi could run the normal route an ICE would run with no more down time than the ICE would have in the natural course of events.

That may be Tesla's initial target market for the initial semi, store delivery trucks. Elon said they already had one operator with a large fleet signed on and that could be Walmart. Walmart is always looking for ways to cut costs and this would cut costs.

I have been scratching my head for months trying to figure out why Tesla was aiming for the over the rig market first when there was plenty of low hanging fruit in the short haul market and Elon never goes out on a limb unless he's 99.999% sure it will hold up to the strain. And he's very thorough.

I was thinking of the long haul trucking market like the coast to coast haulers. A standard class 8 semi has around 600 miles of range in a base configuration, though extra fuel tanks can be added. Having to shut down on the road for 1-2 hours to supercharge after 300 miles of driving would be unacceptable to a lot of operators who run a straight 600 miles without stopping (or only brief stops) now.

Fatigue rules do require drivers to take breaks, but the truck can keep moving if there are two drivers. My friend who works for Walmart was on their moving crew for a while. They had a couple of truck drivers who would move managers from one store to another and they always had a pair of drivers who would swap off to keep the truck moving all day.

In any case, if they aren't going to the real long haul trucks and targeting store delivery trucks running out of distribution warehouses and chargers could be installed at stores to give the trucks a bump while unloading, that would be very doable. I could see a lot of stores going for that. It would save them a fortune.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MorrisonHiker
I think the least complicated solution is the most likely place Tesla will start: Regional distribution with 100-300 miles per day.

The city charger may be the basis for the first customer owned truck chargers.

What Musk will announce will be much bigger, of course. Following the announcement there will be the usual months of b.s. of how Tesla will dominate the truck market by 2020.
 
I think the least complicated solution is the most likely place Tesla will start: Regional distribution with 100-300 miles per day.

The city charger may be the basis for the first customer owned truck chargers.

What Musk will announce will be much bigger, of course. Following the announcement there will be the usual months of b.s. of how Tesla will dominate the truck market by 2020.
I've suggested the flower auction Aalsmeer, they actually own a personal road between Schiphol (airport) and their flower auction.
If the vehicle strands (could happen with a completely new vehicle) than that's not a big problem, flowers don't have a lot of weight, so they can slowly build op and they can test the truck all day since there's more then enough work.
On top of all this, the flower auction building itself got a perfect roof for solar panels, so a swappeble battery system (which can balance the grid and get 100% green energy) can be tested as well.
 
So what do you think about my sollution @wdolson ?
Tesla Class 8 Semi Truck Thoughts

Another issue with battery swap on any scale would mean the need to build more battery packs than semis and battery supply is going to be the choke point for production of all EVs for the next decade. It may have some small scale application, but I don't see it being the primary way of "quick charging" initially.

I did mention a week or so back, I think in this thread, about the possibility of a removable battery with a smaller "ferry battery" left in the tractor. This would allow the truck to drop its battery pack at the charging yard in a distribution center, then drive slowly to its parking spot. This would be good for charging over night when the truck is going to be idle for a while anyway. In the near term it can be done with cheap power from a power plant as the demand is a lot less at night. Longer term it can be done from stored renewables, or active renewables if the power is coming from wind, hydro, or tidal power.

A dropable pack would lend itself to battery swap down the line when battery supply begins to catch up with demand and if there is any interest in going that direction. By then battery capacities may be large enough that upgrading battery packs to the latest tech would be enough.

You also make the point tire technology needs to improve dramatically. Don't hold your breath over that. Tire companies invest a significant amount into R&D to improve tires, but the main problem with tire technology is the laws of Physics.

Tires are a compromise between competing factors that are pretty much unyielding. This can be seen out on the fringes where the factors have been pushed to the max to get one thing out of them. Racing slicks used on race cars have the attributes needed to hold on in tight corners on the track but they sacrifice tire life and traction in other conditions for that one factor. A set of racing slicks may not even make it through one race. They also would be horrible in wet conditions.

In another realm, snow tires help you stay on the road in icy conditions, but they tear up the road and make the vehicle less energy efficient. They are also very noisy.

All season tires used on most cars today are the best trade off of tire life, energy efficiency, traction, and noise possible. Most tire companies have multiple tires in the same category because they trade off the factors a bit differently. Different companies may have different philosophies in design and thus some differences in tire design and manufacturing.

There have been some tweaks to the materials in recent years, but it's just nudging the Physics a little here and there.
 
This article is certainly relevant for this discussion but something in the article jumped out at me:

Cummins acquires electric drivetrain startup Brammo to help bring its electric truck to market

Specifically:

The 18,000-lbs truck featured a maximum payload capacity of 44,000 lbs with a range of 100 miles on a single charge enabled by a surprisingly small 140 kWh battery pack.

I have been using the BYD t9 to extrapolate the size of a battery required for a longer range Semi. But the Cummins "proof of concept" vehicle is more range with a 25+% smaller battery. If you scale this up for a bigger battery, say 600KWh, then you could get 400 miles of range with a locked out buffer for battery protection and lifespan.

With this type of range you could have range charge while loading and drive for 5 hours at 65mph, even in bad weather, and only need to stop for a half hour to charge to 70% for the final 3 hours of driving, even in bad weather. You really do not need more then 400 miles of range as the driver must stop for meals. Now if you get rid of drivers, then stopping for fuel will be a weakness of BEV vs ICE, but the cost for ICE would still offset any benefits from being able to have 1200 miles of range.