Tesla doesn't like Canada :(

[oktane]

That's a really shitty thing to say, if you bothered to at all educate yourself on the topic. Before this gets out of hand, I suggest ending political discussions right now.

I did educate myself on the topic, did you?

Is it a shittier to "say" something offensive, or to "do" it, like rewarding killers?

Next time, note to American troops, do not render aid to the enemy.

Amazing that you think you get to squeak in your CAD$0.02 and then shut down the discussion. But, in the interest of not derailing the OPs thread further, I agree to not respond as long as no one else does.

 

[bcsteeve]

I did educate myself on the topic, did you?

I call BS, because if you had, you wouldn't have said that.

Amazing that you think you get to squeak in your CAD$0.02 and then shut down the discussion. But, in the interest of not derailing the OPs thread further, I agree to not respond as long as no one else does.

I am the OP

 

[bcsteeve]

Tesla does the fair thing that any company should do which is determine the price based on a fair margin and charge everyone worldwide accordingly.

"Laws" of economics, be damned then, right?

I put laws in quotes because, of course, they aren't really absolute truths like Laws of physics, but that's how they word it in University, so I stick with it.

The general macroeconomic principles of the "invisible hand" - or supply and demand - don't generally allow for "fair", or what you perceive as fair. I fully disagree that it is fair, btw. Well, "fair" to Tesla, I suppose. But "fair" is subjective and not really relevant to what "is".

I said it before. You don't care if a baker's cost of wheat goes up or down, right? If he charges "too much" for his bread - particularly if you have options - you don't buy it. You don't listen to his whining about wheat and then buy it anyway. OK, maybe you do, but macroeconomics isn't about "you" (or me), but about the market as a whole. Tesla's costs are completely irrelevant to its pricing from the customer's point of view. It may matter to TSLA investors, but not Tesla customers. Except in craft fairs and commodities, input costs have nothing to do with pricing outside of the company's willingness to offer the product (supply). If they can't make a profit at the price the demand will allow due to their costs then they don't sell (supply goes down which allows for a higher price to a smaller demand base).

Ultimately, I believe, Tesla is making a mistake with its pricing outside of the USA, but only insomuch as they CARE about the long term viability in those markets, which maybe they just don't.

Anyway, I've made my case. We don't need to keep going round and round.

 

[bcsteeve]

So just taking the US price and dividing it by the Canadian price is not accurate.

I didn't quite follow your point there, btw. Of course it is "accurate". Its simple math... one divided by the other = effective exchange rate. I'm not sure what you're getting at, so feel free to elaborate.

 

[oktane]

I am the OP

Oops, my bad. Continue on.

 

[RedP85+]

The Model 3 shouldn't have the 6.1% tariff due to the batteries being made at the Gigafactory. However, I do agree with the OP that Tesla seems to treat Canada with scarcely concealed contempt. Take a look at the Supercharger map, and the lack of interest in building any Superchargers outside of a couple of provinces. Heck, Musk's relatives are from Saskatchewan. 0 Superchargers.

Somebody stated that Canada has the fewest number of Superchargers per capita of anywhere they sell.

Not true. There are only 6 countries with more Superchargers than Canada. US, China, France, Germany, UK and Norway. Every other country has less than Canada and quite a few have a larger population. Italy, Spain, Japan, Mexico and Russia have less Superchargers and larger populations.

 

[SmartElectric]

Chevy Bolt has an effective exchange rate of 1.182 CAD to USD.
Chevy Volt is 1.207
Nissan Leaf is only 1.133
As stated earlier, Tesla is a whopping 1.374

Bolt is impossible to buy in Canada, only a few hundred copies allowed to be sold, highly restricted stock, MSRP no discounts. Compared to US where Chevy has over stock and discounts Bolt drastically in CARB states.

Chevy has screwed over their potential customers as per
Canadians - post your order details! - Page 15 - Chevrolet Bolt EV Forum

What's the legalities of cancelling your order and getting your full deposit back?. I've been waiting since Feb and still no build date.

Volt is artificially limited, dealers have restricted set of orders allowed. Chevy discounts massively in CARB US states and very little in Canada.

Leaf discounts in US are massive, here in Canada it's MSRP or small discounts for the most part. I've looked and used prices in Canada are FAR above US prices, why don't you complain to Nissan?

Your entire premise is based on insufficient data.
Hope this helps clear up your mistaken view on Tesla's pricing in Canada.

 

[SMSMD]

Got a supercharger in Edmonton..8 stalls opening Saturday July 29th 2017
Nanaimo opened July 21st 2017
Calgary opened March 14th 2017
Quite happy with the progress.

 

[Snowstorm]

I wish the one near Ottawa (our capital) would open soon. Ontario and Quebec have the highest concentration of Tesla here and Ottawa is a obvious gap in the coverage. Other than that, I do agree that the supercharger network is pretty good. Owen Sound would also be nice to allow access to the Bruce.

 

[RedP85+]

I didn't quite follow your point there, btw. Of course it is "accurate". Its simple math... one divided by the other = effective exchange rate. I'm not sure what you're getting at, so feel free to elaborate.

Canadian cars cost more because of the extra regulations. So your simple math is incorrect because you don't take that into account.

 

[RiverBrick]

... Italy, Spain, Japan, Mexico and Russia have less Superchargers and larger populations.

They also have far less Teslas than Canada, which would seem like a more appropriate measure than sheer population.

There may be even more Teslas in Canada than in Germany, a country where there were already 50 Superchargers in 2015.

 

[JSergeant]

Somebody stated that Canada has the fewest number of Superchargers per capita of anywhere they sell.

Actually Canada is in the middle of the pack - here are population/supercharger by country (in mill):

Norway 0.2
Sweden 0.4
Luxembourg 0.5
Denmark 0.6
Austria 0.6
Switzerland 0.6
Slovenia 0.7
Croatia 0.7
USA 0.8
France 1.0
Finland 1.1
Canada 1.3
Germany 1.4
United Kingdom 1.4
Belgium 1.4
Australia 1.5
Netherlands 1.5
Jordan 1.6
Ireland 2.4
Italy 2.6
Slovakia 2.7
Spain 2.9
New Zealand 4.7
UAE 4.7
South Korea 7.2
Japan 9.1
China 9.5
Czech Republic 10.5
Taiwan 11.7
Poland 12.8
Mexico 24.6
Russia 144.5

 

[RiverBrick]

Actually Canada is in the middle of the pack - here are population/supercharger by country (in mill):

...

The Model S has been delivered in Canada since 2012. How is Superchargers per population a meaningful measure when you compare Canada to markets where Tesla has been present for only a year or less like Ireland, New Zealand, UAE, Taiwan and South Korea?

On your list, Russia may be the only place where Superchargers are needed as much as in Canada to compensate for range-sapping cold weather. However, does Tesla even have a retail presence there?

 

[RedP85+]

There is also a 6.1% import tariff on the Model S.

 

[neroden]

I had a long conversation with RIV (the authority in charge of vehicle imports to Canada) about Tesla and why they can't be imported. There are two sides to it. First off, RIV / Transport Canada has to accept that the vehicle can be legal in this country. That's obviously not a problem with Teslas because the SAME vehicles are sold in both countries. The other side is the manufacturer, who can object to the importation. Exactly one US company chooses to object to importation... Tesla. The reason? Software licensing.

That's hilarious given that a large part of Tesla's software is pirated and distributed by Tesla illegally. (Linux is GPL-licensed and they're not complying with the licence.) Of course it may be *because* most of Tesla's software is pirated.

There are no "substantial modifications", as Tesla states on its website. Transport Canada rubber stamps anything the DOT does, with very few exceptions mostly relating to daytime running lights. Tesla needs to maintain control over its software and it is unclear how a US car imported to Canada affects that licensing. So after a few roadsters came in (and were therefore "grandfathered", Tesla took the unusual act of objecting to import and now you'll see that no Tesla other than specific ranges of VINs of roadsters are allowed in.

 

[bcsteeve]

.
Hope this helps clear up your mistaken view on Tesla's pricing in Canada.

Not mistaken at all... you're missing the point. Your points about Chevy and Nissan, for example, are comparing Canadian sales to US sales. that has nothing to do with anything and not at all what my point was. If someone can buy a Nissan Leaf in the US for a greater discount to MSRP than a Canadian can... so what? That's an entirely different market. The point I'm making is that Nissan and GM *properly* price their products with respect to competition in THIS market, not relative to what they price their own product at in some other market.

You buy gas where you buy gas... do you compare it to prices in Venezuela where it is cheaper? You buy olive oil for whatever it costs... do you worry about what it costs in Greece? If that olive oil comes to Canada and the seller says, "well, when you factor in shipping and this and that, I think I'll price it at $200 a bottle" do you say, "well that makes sense - I'll take it!"? No, you say, "I'll pass" because you can get alternative products (ie. competition) for a better value.

You guys are free to give Tesla a pass if you want. Whether that's born out of fandom or a general lack of understanding with regard to economics, whatever. But my point stands. Tesla's eventually going to figure out that supply and demand is a relationship you can't simply skirt because you feel like it.

Canadian cars cost more because of the extra regulations. So your simple math is incorrect because you don't take that into account.

Nope... the math *is* simple and I don't need to take "extra regulations" into account. It isn't true anyway. If it were, the Bolt, the Volt, the Leaf... a bunch of others... wouldn't be relatively cheaper in Canada.

And it has nothing to do with 6.1% import nonsense. It has to do purely with supply vs. demand and pricing a product in a market that is attractive to said market.

 

[bcsteeve]

software is pirated and distributed by Tesla illegally. (Linux is GPL-licensed and they're not complying with the licence.)

Common misconception. "illegal" means a law is broken (well, it has multiple meanings but that's how you used it). Violating a contract is not the same as violating a law. Tesla may (or may not) be committing a tortious act for which [whoever considers themselves the copyright owner - which is woefully unclear with GPL] could seek damages from the courts. But what are the damages? Since the software is free, even if the violation is proven... there needs to be damages for compensation. A compliance order is the best anyone could hope for, and that really means that some day in the future... after a ton of legal fees are paid with no hopes of recovery... Tesla may be forced by judgement to *gasp* not change anything at all, but give appropriate GPL licensing terms with the distribution.

Which is why... in the real world... nobody really cares about GPL violations.

 

[neroden]

Google "criminal copyright infringement". Yeah, it sholdn't be a crime. It actually is a crime, though, and Tesla's infringement is both wilful and for profit. Tesla probably won't be prosecuted, and if they were, they could probably get off by claiming that they didn't understand criminal law, because apparently not knowing that it's a crime is a defense.

The way civil copyright damages work, the statutory damages ($150,000 per "work") are trivial to prove, so they'll end up paying those.

Oh. Also, after the copyright holders win, Tesla will almost certainly have to pay the legal fees for the copyright holders who sued them. Judges have discretion on whether to award costs in copyright infringement cases, but in a case like this where people doing not-for-profit work were being ripped off by a for-profit company? They'll award costs.

 

[RiverBrick]

...
And it has nothing to do with 6.1% import nonsense...

How is a real and significant expense nonsense?

The Bolt uses a ton of South Korean parts, so no tariff due to a free trade agreement signed in 2014.

 

[SmartElectric]

Not mistaken at all... you're missing the point. Your points about Chevy and Nissan, for example, are comparing Canadian sales to US sales. that has nothing to do with anything and not at all what my point was. If someone can buy a Nissan Leaf in the US for a greater discount to MSRP than a Canadian can... so what?

You were the one listing the Bolt and Leaf, I was the one correcting your completely misrepresentation of their cost, the Bolt is unobtainium, it's MSRP is not worth discussing, because it cannot be bought, the Leaf MSRP means nothing in the US because of the $10K they put on the hood in US vs no discount in Canada.

Tesla's price is the price. Bolt's price is not possible to compare as it's effectively not for sale in Canada. Leaf's MSRP is not relevant, what matters is what you can buy one for, and in Canada, Leaf is FAR more expensive than in US.

So : Again, you've chosen poor products to compare, so your point is irrelevant till you can actually put comparable products up and their real world cost.