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Tesla forced an update of my P85D to 2019.16.2

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Since you seem to think you're such a great legal mind, show me in my 2016 contract where unlimited supercharging can be taken away for any reason at any time is, and where the software Terms of Service are, and where I agreed to any of the BS your stating. The blind ignorance is stunning, it comes from not knowing what your talking about.

Show me the paperwork that grants you unlimited supercharging. I know I never received any. Also I'm assuming you use the phone app and agreed to both its terms of service and the terms of service when you first setup your car? Well here are those terms of service. There is a whole section on them cutting off cars they deem "unsafe."

Privacy & Legal | Tesla
 
@sublimejackman, your problem could be that you have a late 2017 with AP2 according to your profile. Maybe your didn't come with unlimited free super charging for life like mine and many others and yes we paid for it in the purchase price. My 2016 P90D with AP1 still has V8 and will as long as I have any say about what system is going to be on it. The new V9 maybe very good for the newer Teslas with newer hardware but NOT with older AP1 and even older Tesla with no AP at all.
 
I think this photo tells all. It shows the head of UI development Pawel Pietryka doing work on an MS/MX MCU on a bench. Not in an actual driving car. Just as we always suspected. Complete disconnect from an actual driving UX. Which is ironic, because this is his exact quote: “Everyone knows good design needs to be functional, simple, intuitive. But more than anything it needs to deliver a great user experience.” Yeah, a great UX --- as long as you're driving a desk.

07.jpg


from: Work With Us | TESLA DESIGN STUDIO
See, that’s just BS. You wouldn't do software DEVELOPMENT sitting in a car (certainly not an "actual driving car", LOL). You do it in a lab where you have all of your development and debugging tools. You TEST it in the car (at the appropriate point in the development cycle) and if the operator thinks it has deficient functionality, back to the lab it goes.
 
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@sublimejackman, your problem could be that you have a late 2017 with AP2 according to your profile. Maybe your didn't come with unlimited free super charging for life like mine and many others and yes we paid for it in the purchase price. My 2016 P90D with AP1 still has V8 and will as long as I have any say about what system is going to be on it. The new V9 maybe very good for the newer Teslas with newer hardware but NOT with older AP1 and even older Tesla with no AP at all.

Yeah. I got my unlimited supercharging for life as part of the referral program. So what you have may be different. Did you get a contract with yours? Because I just went back through everything and couldn't find anything other than the blurb saying I had unlimited supercharging.

I really don't want to be a dick here. I get why non-AP owners want V8 or lower. I really do. My point isn't that you are right or wrong, it's just from a legal standpoint, Tesla can pretty much do anything they want to your car. I tried to dive into their motivation for this. I tried discuss why if I was running a car company, I would do the same thing. Tesla has the legal authority (right or wrong) to send updates to devices connected to their network. They also have the right to deny supercharging to cars as they see fit.

It is annoying when Microsoft forces Win10 on everyone or when your iPhone slows down because you're forced into the new iOS. Tesla made a valid point about battery fires. Many of the non-AP cars have an older design and the software update can help prevent fires. There is a valid point that AP1 cars must now comply with EU regulations and the EU doesn't care if some users manually blocked the update. Tesla is still liable in both cases in many jurisdictions and that's not to mention the court of public opinion and short sellers. The general public (and many Tesla owners) doesn't understand the nuance, they just see another crashed Tesla using AP or another security video of a battery blowing up.
 
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I think the whole issue would go away if Tesla were to provide a long-term support (LTS) option that provided only fixes and security patches. Keep the car the customer bought acting like the car they bought, not the bleeding edge. (If a software development house can't manage multiple stable branches, well, that's kind of scary because that's pretty standard stuff in the industry.) Make this the default. If the customer wants to run the latest, for better or worse, that's an option, too. Selecting that option would require owner consent and acknowledgement of their obligation to know that the feature set and behavior is not stable and that they must use it responsibly.
If an LTS option were available, I would jump at it, and I would agree to automatic "push" updates without my consent while on LTS.
 
Show me the paperwork that grants you unlimited supercharging. I know I never received any. Also I'm assuming you use the phone app and agreed to both its terms of service and the terms of service when you first setup your car? Well here are those terms of service. There is a whole section on them cutting off cars they deem "unsafe."

Privacy & Legal | Tesla
My purchase agreement shows the free supercharging. And nowhere in the terms you linked to do they say they can force an update. The only reference to not supporting a vehicle they deem unsafe is for a vehicle that has been considered a total loss.
 
Car says there's an update. Okay great... what is it? What's it change? Is it a security update I should be concerned with an install right away? Is it going to make my user experience better/worse/whatever? Nope, we don't even know what version is staged on the car for install, let alone what's changed, before actually finishing the install.

LOL. I can spot the difference between IQ and EQ right away.

Simply what “changed” would be the following

-Fixed rare bug where car may drive off a cliff in 1/1,000,000 cases.

-Fixed rare bug where car will explode if you used X HPWC with Y VIN range and Z firmware.

-Fixed bug where car will not lane change under semi.

-Fixed bug to prevent hijack of car remotely if login credentials stolen

....

There is probably TENS OF THOUSANDS of these type of fixes that would generate tens of thousands of NEGATIVE HEADLINES that would have ended the company if they were released.

You will infer if something is of the utmost criticality when Tesla figures out when you sleep and you wake up with your car updated.

Or if someone skips on 5,000 fixes which together add up to a potentially dangerous situation like @HankLloydRight did and Tesla decides to pull the trigger regardless of preference.

Tesla can come up with fart mode and then slide in a couple hundred fixes cloaked under a new feature.

I may or may not have engineered and deployed patch management of enterprise systems that human lives depended on.

I may or may not have believed so strongly in keeping systems updated that I would have threatened to resign my position if I couldn’t do my job of providing top care to my infrastructure.
 
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LOL. I can spot the difference between IQ and EQ right away.

Simply what “changed” would be the following

-Fixed rare bug where car may drive off a cliff in 1/1,000,000 cases.

-Fixed rare bug where car will explode if you used X HPWC with Y VIN range and Z firmware.

-Fixed bug where car will not lane change under semi.

-Fixed bug to prevent hijack of car remotely if login credentials stolen

....

There is probably TENS OF THOUSANDS of these type of fixes that would generate tens of thousands of NEGATIVE HEADLINES that would have ended the company if they were released.

You will infer if something is of the utmost criticality when Tesla figures out when you sleep and you wake up with your car updated.

Or if someone skips on 5,000 fixes which together add up to a potentially dangerous situation like @HankLloydRight did and Tesla decides to pull the trigger regardless of preference.

Tesla can come up with fart mode and then slide in a couple hundred fixes cloaked under a new feature.

I may or may not have engineered and deployed patch management of enterprise systems that human lives depended on..

My point exactly. If I were in Tesla's shoes I would have done the exact same thing. Those who don't want updates should disconnect from Tesla. Tesla even gives you the ability to disconnect, you don't even have to call them. The email address is in the Terms of Service doc.
 
My purchase agreement shows the free supercharging. And nowhere in the terms you linked to do they say they can force an update. The only reference to not supporting a vehicle they deem unsafe is for a vehicle that has been considered a total loss.

It's in the website, app and car terms of service. If you don't like it, then disconnect (also in the Terms of Service). But if you honestly believe that the Terms of Service does not include forced software updates (which it does) then you should take legal action. However, I doubt any lawyer would take the case (demonstrating actual harm, intent to inflict harm or negligence). Just look at Windows 10. One person won $10k and that was because Microsoft bricked her computer (and I don't think Microsoft ever paid).
 
I think the whole issue would go away if Tesla were to provide a long-term support (LTS) option that provided only fixes and security patches. Keep the car the customer bought acting like the car they bought, not the bleeding edge. (If a software development house can't manage multiple stable branches, well, that's kind of scary because that's pretty standard stuff in the industry.) Make this the default. If the customer wants to run the latest, for better or worse, that's an option, too. Selecting that option would require owner consent and acknowledgement of their obligation to know that the feature set and behavior is not stable and that they must use it responsibly.
If an LTS option were available, I would jump at it, and I would agree to automatic "push" updates without my consent while on LTS.

Yeah I would also prefer if they moved to this model. I think the issue right now is resources and time. Branching the software and having selective updates takes money and time. More testing (which I can only imagine is insane) and validation. So maybe once Tesla is in a more stable position they could move this to model. Right now, I think it would just be too costly.
 

Are you actually serious? A website TOS page?

Show me where I agreed, in writing, to Tesla downloading unwanted, unannounced, and unscheduled updates to my car.

And the overreaching blanket statement "By providing information to us or by using our products or services, you agree to the terms and conditions of this Privacy Policy." would not hold up in any actual contract dispute. There's also no date on that policy, no revision history, nothing that says what policy was in place when I bought the car or when the original owner bought the car or when I enabled the mobile app.

Tesla can't just change their legal policies on a whim and expect that 100% of their customers are automatically and immediately bound to whatever new contract terms they dream up without actual agreement to those policy changes. Using your logic, Tesla could just add to that webpage "In order to maintain the utmost safety and security of our products, Tesla reserves the right to limit your car to obeying the legal speed limit 100% of the time without driver override." and we'd all be subject to that new policy just by using their products or services. Riiiiight.

Still waiting.


Or if someone skips on 5,000 fixes which together add up to a potentially dangerous situation like @HankLloydRight did and Tesla decides to pull the trigger regardless of preference.

As I've said numerous times already, I am 100% OK with that. Just tell me what's happening and why. And I'll gladly accept the updates without a single complaint. But there has to be communication, something Tesla still hasn't learned.
 
Are you actually serious? A website TOS page?

Show me where I agreed, in writing, to Tesla downloading unwanted, unannounced, and unscheduled updates to my car.

And the overreaching blanket statement "By providing information to us or by using our products or services, you agree to the terms and conditions of this Privacy Policy." would not hold up in any actual contract dispute. There's also no date on that policy, no revision history, nothing that says what policy was in place when I bought the car or when the original owner bought the car or when I enabled the mobile app.

Tesla can't just change their legal policies on a whim and expect that 100% of their customers are automatically and immediately bound to whatever new contract terms they dream up without actual agreement to those policy changes. Using your logic, Tesla could just add to that webpage "In order to maintain the utmost safety and security of our products, Tesla reserves the right to limit your car to obeying the legal speed limit 100% of the time without driver override." and we'd all be subject to that new policy just by using their products or services. Riiiiight.

Still waiting.




As I've said numerous times already, I am 100% OK with that. Just tell me what's happening and why. And I'll gladly accept the updates without a single complaint. But there has to be communication, something Tesla still hasn't learned.

How Enforceable are Terms of Service Agreements? - NextAdvisor Blog

LMGTFY

Also see my earlier posts about how if I were Tesla, I would have done the same thing. They have no legal reason to inform you before software updates. Seriously, go ask a lawyer about Windows 10.
 
Please show me where I agreed to allow Tesla to modifying MY CAR/MY PROPERTY without my consent? Or without even a warning or notice?
Well @HankLloydRight, I've seen your posts for ages, and I practically always agree, especially on this one. It would be real easy for Tesla to inform you of a needed change and explain why it is so important that they insist to do it, and to get your approval. They didn't.

Aside, the wife and I are frustrated with people trying to tell us what to do and think that they always do things in our best interest... ie, the 60s military draft, the debate on pro life / abortion, religious beliefs, democrat / republican, and the list goes on. We can see from this thread that it is never going to stop. There are always going to be some people wanting to control our lives and make us do what they like to do or align with their beliefs. I like the wife's general comment that she wished governments and people would stop making laws that tell her what she can and can't do with her own body. They don't have to live with the consequences. Problem is it will never stop. Yeah, some things make since, but some are just because they are control freaks. Now that I have said this, here comes another long thread of comments from people smarter than us. :) They won't just disagree and tell their opinion. They want to change yours. :rolleyes: Fortunately there are a LOT of great people on here (most people in fact) whom really want to help with information rather than argue to show us they are somehow smarter and we all stupid for having things the way we want. Sorry I won't see your reply. I have to turn off this thread because I don't care to see any lectures about how stupid my comments are. :D
 
How Enforceable are Terms of Service Agreements? - NextAdvisor Blog

LMGTFY

Also see my earlier posts about how if I were Tesla, I would have done the same thing. They have no legal reason to inform you before software updates. Seriously, go ask a lawyer about Windows 10.

You can't compare a software product where you only by a license to use that product, to a car which I OWN, and have full title to. The TOS isn't a license agreement. It's a Privacy policy.
 

Thank you for that informative article @sublimejackman. Here is a snippet.

What makes a terms of service agreement unenforceable?
A legitimate terms of service agreement is legally binding between the parties who agree to it. However, there are a few things that can make terms of service agreements unenforceable. One of the most common unenforceable terms is the unilateral amendment provision, which gives a company the right to change its agreement however it wants, whenever it wants, with or without notifying its customers. Courts have repeatedly found this term unenforceable in cases like Harris v. Blockbuster Inc., Douglas v. Talk America Inc. and Rodman v. Safeway, Inc., as it requires people to agree to terms that don’t even exist yet. If a company wants to include a provision like this, it generally has to notify its customers of agreement changes, provide a grace period for the changes to take effect and limit the agreement to only apply to events that happen after the agreement is amended.

And here is a snippet from Tesla's "Privacy Policy"

Updates to this Policy

We may change this Privacy Policy. Please take a look at the “Last Updated” legend at the bottom of this page to see when this Privacy Policy was last revised. Any changes to this Privacy Policy will become effective when we post the revised Privacy Policy on our Digital Services. By using our products or services, or otherwise providing information to us following these changes, you accept the revised Privacy Policy.

huh, how interesting, this is.

-------------- edited to add ------

Also in that very informative article is this quote about "browserwrap" agreements (see Tesla's Privacy Policy webpage), which are unenforceable.

The way a terms of service agreement is presented to customers also plays a role in how enforceable it is. Most terms of service agreements are exhibited as a wall of text you can read, with a box you can check or a button you can click below it indicating you agree to the terms. These are called clickwrap agreements, because you have to click to get through them, and legally they’re pretty ironclad because the customer has to provide a form of affirmative consent to the agreement.

On the other side are browsewrap agreements, which customers passively agree to just by browsing a website or using a service, that don’t hold up as well in court. Since the terms of service aren’t obvious displayed and there’s no explicit way for customers to agree to them, browsewrap agreements make it hard for companies to prove that their customers are even aware of the terms in the first place. For example, in 2012, Zappos actually had its entire terms of service agreement voided in court because it used both a browsewrap agreement and a unilateral enforcement provision.

Now tell me again how there's an enforceable contract with Tesla?
 
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The amount of Tesla fanboyism in this thread is astounding.... anyway...

First, Tesla doesn't have to divulge their full git log for every release. You know what I'd be happy with? If when there was an update, the updater showed at a minimum, the version number that was ready to be installed. I don't feel like that's asking for a lot.

Ideally, the car should show the version number, full release notes, SHA256 sum and cryptographic signature of the staged update to the user before the update is installed. This isn't a lot to ask for, and is a pretty standard practice with software updates. Even if those notes are nothing more the version number and "This release contains minor fixes and improvements" half of the time... that would be infinitely better than where we are now.

There is no downside to this whatsoever for Tesla or the end user.

As for Tesla modifying people's cars without permission, that's illegal by any stretch of the imagination no matter what the standard Tesla defense crew here says. You own the car. It's yours. You can update it, or not. Your call. You can burn it to the ground if you want, you can hack it, modify it, and literally do just about anything you want to with it. It's your car, not Tesla's. No where in any agreement do you waive your rights as a property owner. Tesla is wrong in this case if they did in fact force an update on @HankLloydRight. Admittedly, I'm not 100% convinced they did (would have to see logs to know for sure)... as I know people have accidentally scheduled updates without realizing in the past. Tesla forcing it is more than possible, and has happened, though, so I'm inclined to believe him.
 
You can't compare a software product where you only by a license to use that product, to a car which I OWN, and have full title to. The TOS isn't a license agreement. It's a Privacy policy.
I think this is where the disconnect is. We do own our cars. We do not own the service that Tesla is providing. Like the LTE and the my tesla api and the phone app. Those are services and in exchange for using those services; Tesla can send updates and download your data. They have no legal reason to warn you before they do either of those activities. If you don't like that or don't want that, then disconnect from those services. You still have a perfectly functioning car that you still own. Example: I buy a computer with Windows 7 from my neighbor. I use Windows updates. Two years later I wake up and WIndows 10 has been installed by Microsoft. I can uninstall it, install linux or turn off windows updates. It doesn't mean Microsoft violated the law. I was using a service provided by Microsoft.
 
As I've said numerous times already, I am 100% OK with that. Just tell me what's happening and why. And I'll gladly accept the updates without a single complaint. But there has to be communication, something Tesla still hasn't learned.

I outlined in the same post you quoted.

Some changes are too mundane to list.

Some changes are PR suicide to list.

Tesla when they gave you the option to defer updates for as long as you have created a false and unfortunate expectation that you could keep doing this.

There’s more to their updates than them wanting to ruin your UI.

I prefer v8 to v9 as well on my Model X.
I wouldn’t stay on it even if given a choice if it meant forgoing everything Tesla deemed was necessary for me to have.
 
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The amount of Tesla fanboyism in this thread is astounding.... anyway...

First, Tesla doesn't have to divulge their full git log for every release. You know what I'd be happy with? If when there was an update, the updater showed at a minimum, the version number that was ready to be installed. I don't feel like that's asking for a lot.

Ideally, the car should show the version number, full release notes, SHA256 sum and cryptographic signature of the staged update to the user before the update is installed. This isn't a lot to ask for, and is a pretty standard practice with software updates. Even if those notes are nothing more the version number and "This release contains minor fixes and improvements" half of the time... that would be infinitely better than where we are now.

There is no downside to this whatsoever for Tesla or the end user.

As for Tesla modifying people's cars without permission, that's illegal by any stretch of the imagination no matter what the standard Tesla defense crew here says. You own the car. It's yours. You can update it, or not. Your call. You can burn it to the ground if you want, you can hack it, modify it, and literally do just about anything you want to with it. It's your car, not Tesla's. No where in any agreement do you waive your rights as a property owner. Tesla is wrong in this case if they did in fact force an update on @HankLloydRight. Admittedly, I'm not 100% convinced they did (would have to see logs to know for sure)... as I know people have accidentally scheduled updates without realizing in the past. Tesla forcing it is more than possible, and has happened, though, so I'm inclined to believe him.
Who is being a fanboy? I repeatedly complain about bunch of annoyances I have with Tesla's software. I'm just being the adult thinking about running a multi-billion startup that makes 2 ton, 80mph rolling projectiles. This isn't hacking your iphone or Playstation. 90% of Tesla owners don't even know the difference between V8 and V9. If you want to be a superuser or want different software or don't want to use a service that puts 500,000 vehicles safety ahead of the font type you don't like; then disconnect. Warning owners about the update to 2019.16 with notes that include "some autopilot features will be limited in the EU" would mean that many of those owners would have opted out or disconnected from wifi to prevent it. In the EU TESLA WOULD HAVE STILL BEEN LIABLE FOR THOSE VEHICLES. This is not mention the battery fire issues they fixed. I'm not a "fanboy" or an "authoritarian" as I've been categorized as several times. I'm an adult and realize that the whole existence of the brand and literally people's lives are on the line. Thinking past my knee jerk reaction of "no fair, you should have told me."