Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread

[chickensevil]

Nonsense.

The biggest water source for Giga Factory involves an aquifer that's a thousand feet underground, has about 30,000 acre-feet of water (9.8 billion gallons) and serves only Tahoe Reno Industrial Center. This water is pumped throughout the park to numerous tanks, which then pipe the water to individual businesses. This is something that TRIC owner,county commissioner, and all around Nevada big wig Lance Gilman secured long ago by legal and perhaps not quite legal means. This is water that is not being used for drought stricken Reno Sparks but is part of the natural resources of Northern Nevada.

A second source is water rights to the Truckee River.

A third source involves reclaimed water. The industrial park is a closed-loop system, meaning that when companies use water and it goes down the drain, this water is pumped to the center's own treatment plant, which cleans up the water and stores it in an above-ground reservoir. This water is for limited and specific purposes.




The logistics of moving those battery packs to auto factories, the logistics to feed the factories from water to rail and roads to local schools for employee children becomes unrealistic particularly when getting tax breaks. And Elon has stated those tax breaks are necessary to make the GF economically viable.

You will have to go back through archived videos (I assume their sessions are achived) to get the exact wording surrounding the discussion but this is what I had posted as I was watching the active discussions happening in Nevada while they were debating over these bills and incentives:

Question regarding getting water for this, apparently there is a need to dispose of the water that comes out of the treatment plants and there has been a raise of standards in what can be dumped into the river, as such Tesla will be able to take this water, treat it themselves, use it in the manufacturing process, treat the water again, and then it will be able to be disposed of safely.

So I assume that is this "third source" of water to which you were referring. From what I remember from the way they were talking about it, either this would be their sole source of water or at least their primary source of water for the factory. Again, you are welcome to go back to the timestamp of when I made that comment and pull up the archives of the senate/house sessions as they were talking about these matters. But for now, I am going to trust what was stated back then regarding this water supply, since Tesla has given me no reason not to trust them.

I mean do you honestly think that given how much we know that water is a problem these days that Tesla as a "eco-friendly" company out to save the world from itself own destruction would suck away precious and limited water supplies of fresh water for their batteries? That just doesn't at all fit in line with the company's mission statement and if true, I would have a nasty letter I would be writing to them about this.

 

[GenIIIBuyer]

If you are reacting to my theory, keep in mind that the Sparks site is only 1 out of 16 global sites just as large. These 16 Gigafactories would be distributed over all inhabited continents. Europe could have 2 to 4, Asia 3 to 6, North America 3 to 5, and the remaining 3 to 8 go to South America, Africa and the Middle East.

I know this scale may seem fantastic, but what we are talking about is displacing about 75% of the global oil industry over 30 years. So this is actually fairly modest from that perspective. Much less land will be taken up with Gigafactories than are currently taken with oil fields and refining, and much less shipping will be required too.

Very true. Much cheaper to generate electrons locally, or 'ship' short distances if needed than oil. I think people need to start thinking about this in terms of increasing societal efficiency, starts to make sense when viewed from that angle.

 

[AudubonB]

Has anyone even a WAG regarding what the Gigafactory's water consumption profile may be, or is this discussion all rotating around a PIOYAWAG? I'll let you dissect that acronym....it's not family friendly.

 

[Model 3]

... eventually, all that will be left is, umm, south-central Sweden? I dunno.

Close! Very close Try just a few miles west A country with a lot of low cost hydro-electric power and Teslas

 

[jhm]

Awhile back Musk was interview on Fox Business, IIRC. He was asked about how many jobs the Sparks Gigafactory would produce. His answer was 6000 to 6500 at full capacity, but that by 2020 that could grow to 10,000. I believe this response is consistent with the possibility of building out more than 50 GWh capacity. At full capacity, about 120 fulltime employees are need per GWh of annual capacity. It does not make sense after years of production productivity would decline such that 200 employees would be required per GWh. Alternatively if over 6 years capacity doubles to 100 GWh per year, then productivity increases to 100 employees per GWh, a 20% gain.

Extrapolating this experience curve out to 200 to 250 GWh, we could envision the number of employees dropping to 80 per GWh. Thus growing this site by 50 GWh every 3 years for 15 years gets to 250 GWh capacity and just 20,000 employees. Additionally note that this drives labor costs from about $10/kWh down to $6.70/kWh. Still in either case, labor is not a huge driver of cost.

Given other jobs created by these primary jobs (3 to 4 per Tesla job) and family members (1 to 2 dependents per employed person), this leads to adding maybe 80,000 to 160,000 residents to the Reno region by 2030. This is solid population growth, but it does not push millions of people into the region.

 

[chickensevil]

Has anyone even a WAG regarding what the Gigafactory's water consumption profile may be, or is this discussion all rotating around a PIOYAWAG? I'll let you dissect that acronym....it's not family friendly.

As my scientific answer I'm going to go with "not much". Everything I am seeing says the ONLY part of the process where they would possibly want/need water would be during the formation of the annode. This is because they have to heat up the lithium (and other metals) to melt them down from a powder to turn it into a solid piece when it cools. So they heat it in a furnace then cool it with water.

Outside of that you actually not only don't use any water but water would become a contaminant. When they go to assemble the cells it is VERY critical to have a "dry room" this is like a clean room except the emphasis is on making sure there is absolutely no moisture in the air.

So I am not sure what Rob is seeing that would require a large amount of water, and since they are just using the water to cool down the annode it likely doesn't even need to be very "clean" water.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=FuFSVNzUK_G1sQTep4GQDA&url=http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/836.PDF&ved=0CB8QFjAB&usg=AFQjCNF0-faxfdwo1is1FyfMKzBd5EPdKw&sig2=9ir_HBjP4CyRDqYbqLZi3w

Hopefully that link works it describes the process and requirements quite nicely.

 

[ecarfan]

Perhaps the anode components could be cooled in a refrigerated room which would be powered by local renewable energy produced by Tesla, thus reducing the need for water?

 

[jhm]

I thought Rob's water concern was about building a home for 2 million people, Tesla City, in the Nevada desert. But as I estimate above, I don't see the population of Tesla City getting much above 160,000 by 2030. I don't know much hydrology, but this does not strike me as being too much of a population demand on water. Maybe Rob had some other water concern in mind.

Regarding water usage, I would point out that coal and other thermal electric power source use alot of water. Solar and wind do not. It appears battery production might not use much either compared to other industrial activities. Thus, the Gigafactory may be particularly well suited to maximize economic output for minimal water input. So you could frame the question this way, given the water limitations of the Reno area, what is the best sort of industrial development for the area to get the most economic benefit for minimal water input?

 

[chickensevil]

Considering we use more water in the farming industry than anyone could ever think about consuming directly in their house (vice indirectly from their food) I would have to say that should not be that much of a concern. There are also quite a few lakes nearby which makes Reno/Sparks a decent area for growth, much like how vegas is pretty close to it's own water source, and why most of the rest of NV is pretty devoid of population comparatively.

Rob's comments about where they get water from were directed at the industrial park specifically, which is why I commented about not finding any real evidence of water requirements in a battery making process (unless we are talking lead acid batteries... those needed quite a bit of water)

 

[Robert.Boston]

Gotta love that a lot of people working at the Gigafactory will live in Sparks. Almost as good as having a Supercharger in Edison NJ.

 

[chickensevil]

Gotta love that a lot of people working at the Gigafactory will live in Sparks. Almost as good as having a Supercharger in Edison NJ.

Yeah that SC is like Nik giving the middle finger from the grave

 

[Robert.Boston]

Yeah that SC is like Nik giving the middle finger from the grave

OTOH, the Supercharger are ​DC, just like Edison would have wanted.

 

[JRP3]

The output is, however they are powered by 3 phase AC, the way Tesla would have wanted :wink:

 

[Auzie]

Yeah that SC is like Nik giving the middle finger from the grave

NT likely did not have it in him whatever it takes to express oneself with such a gesture. Not that I disapprove of such expression, often it is well placed.

The output is, however they are powered by 3 phase AC, the way Tesla would have wanted :wink:

I think NT just wanted efficiency in transmission, not AC per se. Perhaps new homes will be DC wired in the future, if we switch to distributed grid with local power sources.

 

[chickensevil]

NT likely did not have it in him whatever it takes to express oneself with such a gesture. Not that I disapprove of such expression, often it is well placed.



I think NT just wanted efficiency in transmission, not AC per se. Perhaps new homes will be DC wired in the future, if we switch to distributed grid with local power sources.

Before he came up with AC he greatly improved on Edison's DC stuff, so really we have him to thank for both forms of power

 

[Auzie]

Before he came up with AC he greatly improved on Edison's DC stuff, so really we have him to thank for both forms of power

Lets settle that we enjoy the fruits of a team effort :smile:

It is a shame we missed on free wireless transmission through stratosphere. :crying:

 

[austinEV]

Lets settle that we enjoy the fruits of a team effort :smile:

It is a shame we missed on free wireless transmission through stratosphere. :crying:

Was that real? I have never read a convincing explanation for how that wasn't junk science. Then I read about the "earthquake machine" and Tesla's credibility is stretched thin, right?

I mean, I am well aware he invented a lot of real things too, but these other things seem fanciful.

 

[chickensevil]

Was that real? I have never read a convincing explanation for how that wasn't junk science. Then I read about the "earthquake machine" and Tesla's credibility is stretched thin, right?

I mean, I am well aware he invented a lot of real things too, but these other things seem fanciful.

During the earthquake machine timing (while he was in Colorado I believe) there was mysteriously an earthquake in Russia that wasn't anywhere on any fault lines or what have you.

And no, I don't believe it to be junk science, there are charged particles in the ionosphere. Ben Franklin proved that Lightning was electricity. I believe the concept was to pull in that same imbalance in the atmosphere that causes lightning in order to generate electricity. Then you could transmit that power wirelessly to all devices within the radius of the tower. Sadly, we lost most all of his research notes when they pulled his funding, he died alone in his apartment, then the government in their great record keeping methods "lost" a lot of Tesla's research.

(totally sorry for the continued topic derail)

 

[jhm]

So what Gigafactory related announcements do we expect or hope for from the upcoming CC?

 

[chickensevil]

So what Gigafactory related announcements do we expect or hope for from the upcoming CC?

Other than possibly giving a more defined timeline (or an update to the previously given timeline)... None. Just a comment about how the gigafactory is still on track for production in 2016/2017 will be likely all we will get. Anything more would be nice, but I don't know what else there is to say at this point about the subject.

Edit: Although, comments about how the buildout will affect their spending over the next year or so would be nice, since I believe most of the money Tesla is going to spend on this project is happening between now and the end of 2015.