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Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread

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Agree on the 2015 number, but I was thinking the Model S/X production would be hold at 100k in 2016 - the same rate as the line wold have at the start of 2016. From then on all development wold go on the Model 3 line(s) (and the GF). 100k S/X and 150k TM3 in 2017 (so we agree on the total here ;) ). But I see I must have been a bit to optimistic here... Seems like the number will be somewhere between our two guesses :)

Elon talked previously about the max capacity of Panasonic without the Gigafactory being 150k and if they pushed them really hard they could possibly see 200k cars. So I have always taken the lower of those two numbers, which is where I am seeing the 150k number since I also think 75k Model S and 75k Model X global demand is an easy conservative number for them to hit.

We also know that the Gigafactory output is 35GW but the pack output will be 50GW. The missing 15GW translates to 176k 85kW batteries. So again, if you hold back some batteries for warranty work or battery swap stations or some such then you can easily see that 150 target.

Panasonic has also stated previously about their ramp up of their Japanese factories hitting full capacity in 2016. So all of that lines up pretty cleanly with my estimate of 150k and actually allows for that number to be on the low side (in case the demand to go higher isn't there or perhaps the output of Fremont isn't there to go higher... at some point one of those two will be the issue over just getting a certain number of battery packs).
 
Elon talked previously about the max capacity of Panasonic without the Gigafactory being 150k and if they pushed them really hard they could possibly see 200k cars.
[...]
Panasonic has also stated previously about their ramp up of their Japanese factories hitting full capacity in 2016.

Ok, here was some bits I haven't head before. Thanks for the update :)



(in case the demand to go higher isn't there or perhaps the output of Fremont isn't there to go higher... at some point one of those two will be the issue over just getting a certain number of battery packs).

Well, I was more concerned with this then the battery supply. Will the Gen-II line(s) have this capacity? And don't forget the stationary battery packs and deliveries to others (Daimler etc). After the GF is fully operative this will be about the mentioned 15GWh. From what I have understood they are planing to produce (or is already producing) some stationary packs, so they need some cells for this too before the GF is on-line.

I'm sure there is a demand to (temporary) go higher then 100k/year, but will this demand be sustained? After the Model 3/Y hits the road? After other car makers start to produce long range EV's? Remember this is expensive cars... They may end up having a lot of unused Gen-II capacity, if this can't be reused on the Gen-III or Gen-IV lines. If it's easy to switch between Gen-II and Gen-III production on the same lines then this is not a problem :)
 
It seems like the general contractor for Tesla is W.G. Yates.

Panasonic is hiring 24 people right now with listings of:

LIST OF TESLA GIGAFACTORY-RELATED OPENINGS
* By position, number of openings and job number
Panasonic Energy Corporation of North America
• Benefits analyst, 1, NV0352905
• General manager of business promotion, 1, NV0352919
• General manager of manufacturing, 1, NV0353097
• Production engineering manager, 1, NV0353096
• Manufacturing manager, 1, NV0352921
• Power equipment engineer, 1, NV0352950
• Facility control supervisor, 1, NV0353098
• Facility design supervisor, 1, NV0353095
• Facility maintenance supervisor, 1, NV0353099
• Finance supervisor, 1, NV0353085
• Human resources supervisor, 1, NV0352899
• Manufacturing supervisor, 13, NV0353102


Source:
Nevada JobConnect posts 28 Tesla gigafactory jobs
 
New Nevada document with some details of the ongoing construction project http://diversifynevada.com/documents/Tesla_Abatement_Application.PDF

Below points from reddit

  • Breakdown of the capital investment - Attachment "F"
    1. Building and Site Infrastructure - $1.1bn
    2. Machinery and Equipment - Building Systems - $300m
    3. Machinery and Equipment - Module, Pack and Battery Assembly - $2.2bn
    4. Machinery and Equipment - Materials Processing - $1.4bn
  • Breakdown of the construction phases by manpower
    1. Tesla is now exclusively in phase 1 with phase 2 starting in December.
    2. Construction will ramp up gradually and be at full force during the spring of 2015.
    3. Phase 4 is planned to end by the end of 2016 and the last phase (5) will be completed throughout 2017.

Tesla Motors Gigafactory project regulatory filing with outline (40 page document) : teslamotors
 
Yea why not put the next 10 gf right there
That's pretty much what I expect them to do. When you think about the challenge of doubling capacity every 18 months for about 15 years, what you need are a series of Gigafactory sites where you can expand at a constant rate for 15 to 20 years.

So basically they need enough land in Sparks that they can just continue to roll out 10 to 20 GWh of capacity every year until EVs gain about 50% share of the new car market. This is also preferable to doubling the number of Gigafactory sites every 18 months. Under that model, management spends far too much time negotiating new sites. So it is better to have one site where you can keep expanding for 15 years than 5 sites that you can only expand for about 3 years each. Moreover, this is efficient from a hiring point of view. Experienced employees are more productive. As you expand for 15 year in the same location, productivity continues to increase, labor cost per GWh keeps going down. By comparison, if you have 5 smaller sites that can only expand for 3 years, as productivity increases, you have to shrink head count after reaching full capacity. This is not as attractive for the best tallent, and job preservation works against productivity gains. Basically productivity and jobs are in competition. But when there is a really long expansion jobs and productivity can both increase and there is lots of advancement opportunity to motivate the best performers.

So how does Tesla accomplish exponential growth if a single site like Sparks can only support linear growth albeit for 15 to 20 years? Basically if Tesla launches one new Gigafactory site each year for 16 years, and if each site grows linearly 250GWh capacity over a 15 year ramp up, then that would ultimately lead to 4 TWh capacity with logistic growth by 2045. That, along with some density gains along the way, would be about enough capacity for the new car market. The halfway point is reached in 2030, about 2TWh capacity plus density gains, enough to power half of the new car market. This growth is not quit exponential leading up to 2030; it is just quadratic. But that is close enough to expontial and the longer trajectory to 2045 must be sigmoidal anyway. That is, as EV market share expands beyond 50% the rate of growth must slow down. Otherwise, there would likely be excess capacity leading to a short-term glut.

I worked out this trajectory in a model awhile back, but was reluctant to share it. My concern was that it may well tip off too much of Tesla's unpublished long-term plans. Additionally there was also the personal risk that it would be misunderstood and laughed off. But for myself, I was satisfied to see that there was a manageble path Tesla could follow to supply half the new car market by 2030. Moreover, cash flow from this operation is sufficient to be self-funding given Tesla's cash on hand and other capital commitments from Panasonic. It's one thing to discribe such a model; it's another thing to publish such a model.

So I am still reluctant to publish the model. The key insight behind the model, however, is that sites like Sparks need to be large enough that they can sustain linear growth for at least 15 years. The fact that Tesla has chosen a site that gives them an option on 10x the initial land is consistent with my hypothesis that sites must be large enough for 15 years of linear growth. Further confirmation of my theory and model would be the announcement of another Gigafactory location to begin development within 24 months of the Sparks site, and this second site must also have the option for sufficient land to develop over 15 years. Actually, they should announce this within 12 months, but I can envision special reasons why they may wait longer for the second site. After that, new site announcements should arrive about 12 months apart. Of course, there are other ways this could be scaled which could throw off this prediction. But basically, I'm thinking that they've got the scale about right: each site should roll out 50GWh of capacity every 3 years and repeat this for 15 or more years. So keep my predictions in mind. They may seem crazy right now, but if I understand correctly the magnitude of this transformation of the auto industry and Tesla is truly up for the challenge, then these predictions are just based on the simplest way to accomplish this transformation. If anyone can think of a smarter way to scale to 2TWh by 2030, please let me know.
 
They are already stretching local water resources for 35 GW.

Where will the auto factories go to manufacture an additional 5-8 Million cars?



Are they going to ship all over the world? Ever decreasing logistical advantages of building GF near Fremont? Or build that capacity somewhere in Nevada. Create cheap potable water out of thin air? Create a 2 million person Tesla City in the Nevada Desert?

Risk diversification is also important. So is politics.


Getting more incentives.

Much like the right of Tesla to sell through factory stores is now enshrined in Nevada law that could happen going forward.


A GF and Auto Factory in Texas to build pickup trucks for example.
 
All your eggs in 1 basket - never a good idea. Frankly it gives me the chills every time I realize the only T factory is "thisclose" to one of the hottest fault lines. Plus you have the logistics to think about.

Elon's plans to have (at least) 1 factory in NA, EU, AP each make perfect sense. In fact, we are hearing rumours from time to time here in Hungary that tesla is in talks with neighboring Slovakia... some say it's about a future factory. Between Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic we have several big car factories already for the VW group, GM and even Mercedes. Wouldn't be surprised if they were to build something in this area sooner than we think. And yes, a car factory & GF combo makes perfect sense too.
 
All your eggs in 1 basket - never a good idea. Frankly it gives me the chills every time I realize the only T factory is "thisclose" to one of the hottest fault lines. Plus you have the logistics to think about.

Elon's plans to have (at least) 1 factory in NA, EU, AP each make perfect sense. In fact, we are hearing rumours from time to time here in Hungary that tesla is in talks with neighboring Slovakia... some say it's about a future factory. Between Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic we have several big car factories already for the VW group, GM and even Mercedes. Wouldn't be surprised if they were to build something in this area sooner than we think. And yes, a car factory & GF combo makes perfect sense too.

If you are reacting to my theory, keep in mind that the Sparks site is only 1 out of 16 global sites just as large. These 16 Gigafactories would be distributed over all inhabited continents. Europe could have 2 to 4, Asia 3 to 6, North America 3 to 5, and the remaining 3 to 8 go to South America, Africa and the Middle East.

I know this scale may seem fantastic, but what we are talking about is displacing about 75% of the global oil industry over 30 years. So this is actually fairly modest from that perspective. Much less land will be taken up with Gigafactories than are currently taken with oil fields and refining, and much less shipping will be required too.
 
Some juicy details in this one. The site is 980 acres and they are getting the option to buy another 9000 later on. That is a huge area for further expansion!!!!

Yea why not put the next 10 gf right there

7000 of the 9000 acres are for a potential wind farm. However, the left over 2000 acres could account for either a future factory, two additional gigafactories, or one of each.
 
In contention to the water scarcity claims, my understanding of that is Tesla is actually HELPING Nevada out since the water they are going to be taken is wastewater already, they are going to clean the water to whatever degree that they need for the factory and then clean it again before it gets dumped back into the river (or whatever). This is the green way to get your water and is basically non-impact to the environment if I am understanding this correctly. What I am saying is that the water Tesla will be receiving isn't potable as it stands already, and I don't know that when they dump it out it will be of potable quality, but it will definately be in a "cleaner" state than when they received it which makes it a net gain for the environment.

About Fremont being on a dangerous location ready to be wiped off the planet, that is a little bit too extreme don't you think? That factory has been there in some form or another going back to 1962 and there have been at least 45 earthquakes in the area with a magnitude of 4.4 or greater. That is almost one major earthquake a year. The have refurbished the site at least twice and earthquakes are pretty much no big deal to modern architecture. And mind you there were 6 earthquakes with a magnitude of 7.0 or greater. I am certain it would take some crazy 9.0 magnitude to cause real serious harm to the factory which going all the way back to the late 1700s there has only been a recording of 7.9 at the top end. If you don't think they built the factory with a potential 7.9 in mind then I don't know what to tell you.

Back to the gigafactory. It was stated in the article that 7000 of the acres was to be used for Wind farms. So that actually only leaves them an extra 2000 acres to play with. So I would look toward the potential of them adding 2 more like sized factories in the area bringing the total capacity up to around 120GW. It might become a little unrealistic at that point to add more in just because the logistics of having that many employees come into that area might not be feasible. You are talking almost 20k employees at that point for just Tesla and not counting any of the other industrial centers that already exist there. If they ramp up further at that site I would not expect it to happen soon because the infrastructure just won't be there to handle it.
 
Thanks for that reiteration, BadChick. Here is another way to look at it:

*try to isolate locations on the earth that are neither within X miles of a known active seismic trace; away from potentially catastrophic tsunami; outside tornado, hurricane or other atmospheric disaster zones;

*go through other BigActsOfGodZones;

*and outside conflict zones;

*and outside socioeconomically parlous situation locations;

*....

eventually, all that will be left is, umm, south-central Sweden?:confused: I dunno.
 
In contention to the water scarcity claims, my understanding of that is Tesla is actually HELPING Nevada out since the water they are going to be taken is wastewater already, they are going to clean the water to whatever degree that they need for the factory and then clean it again before it gets dumped back into the river (or whatever). This is the green way to get your water and is basically non-impact to the environment if I am understanding this correctly. What I am saying is that the water Tesla will be receiving isn't potable as it stands already, and I don't know that when they dump it out it will be of potable quality, but it will definately be in a "cleaner" state than when they received it which makes it a net gain for the environment.

Nonsense.

The biggest water source for Giga Factory involves an aquifer that's a thousand feet underground, has about 30,000 acre-feet of water (9.8 billion gallons) and serves only Tahoe Reno Industrial Center. This water is pumped throughout the park to numerous tanks, which then pipe the water to individual businesses. This is something that TRIC owner,county commissioner, and all around Nevada big wig Lance Gilman secured long ago by legal and perhaps not quite legal means. This is water that is not being used for drought stricken Reno Sparks but is part of the natural resources of Northern Nevada.

A second source is water rights to the Truckee River.


A third source involves reclaimed water. The industrial park is a closed-loop system, meaning that when companies use water and it goes down the drain, this water is pumped to the center's own treatment plant, which cleans up the water and stores it in an above-ground reservoir. This water is for limited and specific purposes.



Back to the gigafactory. It was stated in the article that 7000 of the acres was to be used for Wind farms. So that actually only leaves them an extra 2000 acres to play with. So I would look toward the potential of them adding 2 more like sized factories in the area bringing the total capacity up to around 120GW. It might become a little unrealistic at that point to add more in just because the logistics of having that many employees come into that area might not be feasible. You are talking almost 20k employees at that point for just Tesla and not counting any of the other industrial centers that already exist there. If they ramp up further at that site I would not expect it to happen soon because the infrastructure just won't be there to handle it.

The logistics of moving those battery packs to auto factories, the logistics to feed the factories from water to rail and roads to local schools for employee children becomes unrealistic particularly when getting tax breaks. And Elon has stated those tax breaks are necessary to make the GF economically viable.