Go watch Bjorn's Korean Bolt video and get back to me. Bjørn Nyland Takes Chevrolet Bolt 292 Miles On A Single Charge - Video
Let's see if you'll listen to him about your theoretical 75 minute range of the Bolt.
I'd agree with you if you were right.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Tesla Master Plan: GM got there first
- Thread starter Cosmacelf
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Electric Vehicles
Go watch Bjorn's Korean Bolt video and get back to me. Bjørn Nyland Takes Chevrolet Bolt 292 Miles On A Single Charge - Video
Let's see if you'll listen to him about your theoretical 75 minute range of the Bolt.
I'd agree with you if you were right.
I think you mean to say "the incapacity of the product". I don't remember where you have posted that a Bolt EV has any capabilities, only incapacities in any thread.
Concerning the EPA stuff, Bjorn should have been able to take the same drive in a 2017 Model 90D and drove 361 miles with 3 people. Perhaps. Anybody reporting similar ranges in traffic?
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
"Nyland explains that they weren’t traveling really fast, and it is warm there, so no heat was needed."
The relatively low speed of the highway traffic on the South Korean road was almost certainly a contributing factor.
People could squeeze 425 miles out of an 85kWh Model S back in 2013, but only by driving at speeds far below prevailing traffic flow in much of the United States. 70-75 MPH is realistically right-lane driving most of the time.
The relatively low speed of the highway traffic on the South Korean road was almost certainly a contributing factor.
People could squeeze 425 miles out of an 85kWh Model S back in 2013, but only by driving at speeds far below prevailing traffic flow in much of the United States. 70-75 MPH is realistically right-lane driving most of the time.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Nyland was not hypermiling. His heating was 3 humans and electric seats. I remember a temp of 8°C (46°F) in the video, and there was a heavy mix of driving conditions and elevation changes. And there was rain, which heavily affects range. Yet they still saw what most GM owners do, about 20% more than EPA when speeds are commonly <65 and with traffic in areas.
Record attempts: >234% of EPA rating is probably not the highest anymore (2012? 2013?). And Florida is flat as a board and seldom cold. 160% of EPA is very good, but not a record hypermiling attempt. I wlll venture a guess that somebody with entirely no life whatsoever will crest 500 in a Bolt. That is a LOT of hours.
Record attempts: >234% of EPA rating is probably not the highest anymore (2012? 2013?). And Florida is flat as a board and seldom cold. 160% of EPA is very good, but not a record hypermiling attempt. I wlll venture a guess that somebody with entirely no life whatsoever will crest 500 in a Bolt. That is a LOT of hours.
EV-lutioin
Active Member
Remember, the Tesla Master Plan is to accelerate sustainable transport, not just prove they can build a nice EV. The fact that the GM dealer with which I test drove a Bolt does not even have a public charger on site speaks volumes about their commitment to the Master Plan.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Less than 65 MPH is not helpful on highways where the prevailing flow of traffic is 70-75 MPH in the right hand lane.
It is a simple reality that the Bolt does not cope well with highway speeds because of its shape. Cat & Driver noted that the Bolt makes a fine daily driver, but put it on a highway cruise at 75 MPH and it's done in 190 miles (AC was set 72f accounting for the lower than EPA result).
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV - Instrumented Test
It is a simple reality that the Bolt does not cope well with highway speeds because of its shape. Cat & Driver noted that the Bolt makes a fine daily driver, but put it on a highway cruise at 75 MPH and it's done in 190 miles (AC was set 72f accounting for the lower than EPA result).
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV - Instrumented Test
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Go back to post #69 in this thread. I said that the 75 minute range issue happens after initial full charge is depleted:
"The DC charging will in my estimation need to be about twice as good as it is today (matching the Tesla's 170 miles in 30 minutes) to avoid having to stop every 1 hour 15 minutes for a 30 minutes charge after initial charge is depleted."
Furthermore, Bjorn states that the Bolt's speed was fairly low over the entire trip. His experience is not representative of what would happen on an American interstate with much higher traffic speeds.
The GM dealers I go to not only have charging, they ask me if they can valet my car for me to charge it while I visit. But I live in California, and don't shop for pizza at Teppan grills. I know what I'm buying and how much I'm paying before I arrive for the test drive. Just like I know Japanese food does not include pizza normally, and that the worst buying experience comes from BMW.
Best I can tell Tesla removed their range estimator from their website, and when it was up last, it was capped at 70mph.
So you win. Tesla Miles Per Hour Charging is any number YOU wish, and their range is NOT affected by velocity.
It is unlikely the 45-60 kWh Model 3 battery will charge at 100 kWh for any significant duration, so it's time for the working class to abandon the EV entirely.
Volts are a better solution for the working class anyway. Cheap, fun, economical, >90% of miles on pure electricity.
That's not how I actually road trip in my Bolt EV. I'm not doing repeated cycles of 30 minute charging sessions.
The reality is that people want to stop and eat every 4-5 hours. From a full overnight charge I follow a pattern like:
Drive ~165 miles
* Charge for 30 minutes, coffee & bathroom
Drive for ~75 miles
* Charge for 60 minutes, eat lunch
Drive for ~125 miles
* Charge for 30 minutes, coffee & bathroom
Drive for ~75 miles
Distance driven 440 miles
If not at destination yet....
* Charge for 60 minutes, eat dinner
Drive ~125 miles
* Charge for 30 minutes, coffee & bathroom
Drive ~75 miles
Distance driven 640 miles
I rarely drive more than 640 miles a day and that pattern gets me 400-500 miles a day of driving at a pleasant cadence where I arrive at a stopping point around dinner and check in at my hotel etc. if I need to drive ~600 miles that's no big deal either and I arrive in the early evening.
The range estimator is still there. It's near the bottom of this page:
Model S | Tesla
https://www.tesla.com/models
There doesn't appear to be a similar applet for the Model X and you are right, they top out at 70 MPH.
The Model 3 battery probably will charge more slowly than the Model S/X. The 85-100 KWh pack charges faster than the 60-75 because it has more cells to distribute the energy coming in. I haven't seen anybody compare charge times for the 100 vs the 90 pack yet, but I would expect the 100 can charge quicker because it has more cells. Tesla upped the power levels of their new superchargers about a year ago and I think it was to support the 100 KWh pack's extra cells.
I expect the Bolt's Wh/Mi to be better than the Model 3 at relatively low speeds because it's smaller and weighs less. However, at the sort of highway speeds most Americans drive, the Model 3 will probably be more efficient because of better aerodynamics. The Bolt has terrible aerodynamics for driving at high speed.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Thanks for the perspective on real world use. This sounds like it works out well for you.
The time penalty for repeated 30+ minute stops is pretty high though. I think it's a tough sell for average buyers, because this is not substantially similar to what most people I know are used to taking in terms of breaks. I know I can sell a 30-60 minute lunch break. I also know that I'm facing a lot more resistance from family members on the 30 minute stops.
I have no doubt that if the Bolt had charging capability similar to a Tesla, it would make my view towards the Bolt much more favorable. The Supercharger level charging speed is really what ultimately sold me on the viability of EVs as a total replacement for ICE.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Someone else had pointed out in another thread that although the Model 3 battery would likely charge more slowly than the Model S battery due to size, that actual range added per unit time might not be too different because the Model 3 should be lighter and will have a smaller frontal area.
But obviously we have no way to know for sure until July at earliest.
I don't know why you are still arguing this. It isn't like we haven't gone over it several times in the Bolt thread.
EPA range is based on combined MPGe which emphasizes city driving. Tesla Model S/X are optimized for highway cruising range. Even the high speed test has quite a few start/stops. It is not representative of a DCFC to DCFC on the highway system:
EPA testing info:
Detailed Test Information
Average speed of the highway test is 48.4 mph.
A Tesla Model S is less affected by 70-80 mph steady state speeds than other BEVs due to emphasis on aerodynamics. Also, the older higher powered motor is less efficient than the newer motors used in the 60, 70, 75, and 90 kWh variants.
It is possible to drive a Model S to be within about 10% of the Bolt's efficiency, even with the older Model S:
That's with a P85, the least efficient Model S. And short trips like that are usually the absolute worst since all the energy to prime the battery thermal management system and so forth are included.
EV-lutioin
Active Member
I live in California too and for some reason, our GM dealership clueless how to charge their own cars. They didn't even know Plugshare existed.
I shopped for Volts.... $42,000 for a car that is almost equivalent to a $25,000 Civic. Couldn't justify it.
$28k OTD including all taxes, fees, and incentives. Premier/ACC/NAV/DC2/Etc. Other than custom paint, fully loaded. You need to know how to shop. (EXTRA BONUS - The AEB really works when you pay for it, and has a HUD warning system)
It has no lag in traffic like a Civic. No altitude decay. No warmup. And always has enough 'gas' to get the job done each morning. And the daily use 'gas' is free, Rock solid and quiet at 100mph. Feels both sturdy and nimble at the same time. Has no EV infrastructure worries even though it normally operates on 100% electricity. It's like magic.
Last edited:
Your quoting the MSRP for a loaded premier trim Volt. You can easily find them discounted by $5,000 off MSRP (first dealer website I tried, Fremont Chevy). Now take the $7,500 fed credit and the $1,500 state rebate (not sure if PG&E $500 rebate applies).
So, $42k - $14k = $28k for 53 miles EV range with 0-60 in ~7.5 seconds and 42 mpg after that. Fully loaded. The most expensive of the 95 Volt's in Fremont inventory search was $36k (discounted) - $9k = $27k.
I'd say that's a good deal.
Tesla's original premise was to sell upscale performance to the wealthy and to that end there is STILL not a single company that comes close to their goal (maybe the hybrid I8 but i think they have sold about a hundred). Why ANYONE would compare a telsa to a bolt is beyond me. totally different market, beside the fact that its butt ugly (like every other EV out there)
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
A current generation Civic is also rock solid and nimble at high speed. Honda's Global Compact Platform is superb, arguably best in class. The available turbo 1.5 mitigates some of the altitude disadvantages. And it makes no compromises in passenger space.
I don't dispute the Volt's advantages in NVH and EV responsiveness, but the Civic has become substantially more refined and powerful since the last generation. The Volt is far from a slam dunk winner in terms of overall value.
Until the Civic comes with a butler who puts a couple gallons in each night, or American Honda installs a free gas pump at my work, I think the Volt will have the edge in at least one respect. Time is a precious commodity, and the Civic uses more of it up.
And no ICE has the response of an EV powertrain. Instant, smooth, quiet, torquey, it's a luxury feature the Civic does not have available at any cost.
