But you are talking about first-to-market, not first viable car. Hey, I'd buy a 200mi low cost EV sports car if it were cheap. Remember the EV1 was RWD and lighter than the Corvette even when it had lead acid batteries to power it.
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Tesla Master Plan: GM got there first
- Thread starter Cosmacelf
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But you are talking about first-to-market, not first viable car. Hey, I'd buy a 200mi low cost EV sports car if it were cheap. Remember the EV1 was RWD and lighter than the Corvette even when it had lead acid batteries to power it.
1. When the infrastructure is in place to make it practical to drive this car long distance by normal people (not just EV enthusiasts), and
2. When GM produces and sells the car in volume
Then we'll talk.
Until then the Bolt is little more than a publicity stunt to "beat" Tesla that wouldn't have been built now had it not been for Tesla.
2. When GM produces and sells the car in volume
Then we'll talk.
Until then the Bolt is little more than a publicity stunt to "beat" Tesla that wouldn't have been built now had it not been for Tesla.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
While I'm not as negative on the Bolt as some -- I think it's a good car -- it probably wouldn't exist without Tesla. More than that, the Supercharger network makes Tesla a truly long range vehicle, whereas the Bolt is crippled by lack of charging infrastructure.
I wholeheartedly disagree with suggestion that the SC/CCS gap is closing rapidly. How do you get a CCS network set up for long range transportation, and not just scattered about randomly in cities? I think it takes a dedicated act by government, or a dedicated act by industry, and I don't see a hint of either anywhere on the horizon for CCS. Someday, when Tesla is truly threatening all other auto manufacturers and climate change becomes a more visible and undeniable problem, someone else will finally step up and build a charging infrastructure, but that's still a long ways off. And at that point, they might just line up behind the Tesla charging standard, as they look at the map and see, lets say, 30,000+ installed and well placed superchargers compared to maybe 2,000 poorly placed and poorly maintained CCS chargers.
I don't want to be negative on GM though. Honestly, I would put then in 2nd place behind Tesla on EVs, overtaking Nissan with the introduction of the Bolt and the improvements made to the gen2 Volt.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Good point that your pickup truck is not a compliance car which was produced to not get any ZEV credit but to be able to drive cross country even if it burns gasoline and releases smoke.
We are talking about cars that don't emit any smoke but can also go cross country in a reasonable time like 55 hours.
Nissan Leaf and GM Bolt can go cross country too but not in any practical time length. Thus, they are good for the purpose of getting ZEV credits (compliance part) but not for practical long range purpose.
mknox
Well-Known Member
Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but I find the Bolt's design quite compelling. I really hate small sedans (wish Tesla had done the Model Y first) as they are totally impractical with their tiny trunks. In a small car, a hatchback design is far more practical.
I've had the opportunity to drive a couple of Bolts extensively and it in no way feels like "driving a UPS truck". It drives, rides and handles extremely well IMHO.
I think the record is about 30 hours for coast to coast with a car.
EVs have lots of strengths that ICE vehicles do not. However, remote refueling time and charger density is not one of them.
We have BEVs today that refuel: Slow, slower, damn slow, and please Lordy take me now!
But most working class folk do not have time to drive across the USA. They have to fly due to time constraints.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It has to be first to market, but it has to serve GM's compliance needs too. If they make a car too niche to even satisfy compliance requirements, it'll be an unnecessary waste of money (presuming it's possible to build a compelling low cost 200 mile EV sports car in the first place). With this, GM kills two birds with one stone.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
There's no doubt that a hatch configuration is generally much more flexible than a trunk compartment.
Sedans do have some advantages though: (1) they are more aerodynamic than cars with vertical hatchbacks. Making the hatch a lift back style like Prius or Model S is one way to get around this, but can substantially lower the height of the cargo area towards the rear of the car. (2) NVH considerations: a large empty cargo space near the rear wheel wells that is contiguous with the passenger seating area makes noise mitigation from the rear tires more difficult. (3) It's easier to improve structural rigidity in a sedan because a rear cross member is typically located between the rear seat and trunk space.
For a sporty EV car with long range, a sedan does make sense. However, in the long run, a compact crossover based on the same platform will be a higher volume seller. The tide of the family car market is tipping away from Accords and Civics in favor of CR-Vs.
Tam
Well-Known Member
That is a very fair point indeed.
However, we are talking about what's GM Bolt's motive of "long range" here.
Its definition is to get the longest miles possible per charge.
My definition is if it can run cross country in at least 55 hours, the same duration as Tesla could.
Otherwise, its motive is not actually "long range" but making a GM Bolt trip from San Jose to California Institute of Technology in Pasedena, CA a miserable experience:
Chevy Bolt EV: 800-mile trip in 238-mile electric car shows challenges remain
In contrast with the above article, it's been a pleasant experience with my 2012 Model S over 88,000 miles to drive long distances such as over 500 miles from San Diego to Sacramento. My local travel radius has been Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego in California and Las Vegas, NV.
Now, with AP2 in my 2017 Model X, I don't see why I should fly and risk experiencing Dr. Dao's broken nose.
igotzzoom
Active Member
Objectively, the Bolt as a vehicle is competitive. What makes it uncompetitive is the franchised dealer network that it's sold through. Long story short, the sales and customer service experience is all over the map. Some dealerships are treating it like an opportunity, and others are treating it like a burden. Pricing is inconsistent, from markups to deep discounts. I'm already seeing quite a few on the road around here in So Cal. As I've stated many times before, I'm not a great fan of the Bolt's styling, but it does tick the boxes for a relatively affordable long-range electric.
Not likely. In 2-3 years the CCS network will probably close the gap with today's Tesla Supercharger network in California and will be within sight of closing the gap nationwide.
However, Tesla will be expanding its Supercharger network rapidly in the same timeframe and will stay at least 2-3 years ahead of CCS for the immediate future.
That's the ever-rising compliance-car test?
What percentage of car buyers will drive on a ~3,000 miles coast-to-coast road trip within the next 15 years? Very very few. Less than 1%? In 30+ years of adult driving I've never made it past Ohio from California. I almost never hear friends telling me about their California to Florida trips driven in their car. In 55 hours?
You can only do that in a Tesla Model S with the biggest battery packs. Are you trashing the S60?
You apparently haven't been paying attention to VW's "Diesel-gate" Electrify America settlement. It comes in two parts -- the non-CA national plan has been approved by the EPA and the CA plan is set for an imminent approval vote. CARB may reject part of it but my guess is they will approve it as-is. If both plans are fully implemented it will look like this:
VW Reveals Nationwide EV Charging Plans - HybridCars.com
That was the (in)experience of one owner who didn't plan well. Others, including myself, have made similar trips with little drama.
I've done the same routes in my Bolt EV (except for Vegas) and enjoyed it. In fact, I'm looking forward to another trip in the near future to Los Angeles from San Francisco (~400 miles).
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At the heart of Secret Master Plan 1 is "an electric car without compromises." The Bolt fails this test -- it is full of compromises.
The Bolt is a $37.5K econobox that can't be taken more than about 200 miles from home without major challenges. The Model 3, in contrast, can compete well with comparably priced Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, etc. on its own merits, as shown by 373,000 reservations within the first few weeks of the reveal.
If the Bolt were the only option available, it would continue to build the image of EVs as niche cars of interest primarily to a small group of eco-minded consumers, while doing little or nothing to accelerate the transition to a clean economy, which is the whole point of the original Secret Master Plan as well as MP Part 2.
The Bolt is a $37.5K econobox that can't be taken more than about 200 miles from home without major challenges. The Model 3, in contrast, can compete well with comparably priced Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, etc. on its own merits, as shown by 373,000 reservations within the first few weeks of the reveal.
If the Bolt were the only option available, it would continue to build the image of EVs as niche cars of interest primarily to a small group of eco-minded consumers, while doing little or nothing to accelerate the transition to a clean economy, which is the whole point of the original Secret Master Plan as well as MP Part 2.
As you know, the initial product of Tesla Motors is a high performance electric sports car called the Tesla Roadster. However, some readers may not be aware of the fact that our long term plan is to build a wide range of models, including affordably priced family cars. This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution.
Critical to making that happen is an electric car without compromises, which is why the Tesla Roadster is designed to beat a gasoline sports car like a Porsche or Ferrari in a head to head showdown. Then, over and above that fact, it has twice the energy efficiency of a Prius. The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me)
The tragic thing is it really won't matter.
The fact of the matter is the Bolt won't achieve significant production numbers. If there was a large demand for it we'd see it at this point, but the demand seems to have dropped off quickly after launch.
So it becomes yet another unattractive EV.
Was it because it's ugly?
Was it because it wasn't well marketed?
Was it because it lacks Adaptive Cruise Control?
Was it because it doesn't have a supercharger like network?
As a high production volume reasonably priced EV I'd say it's already failed.
What I do think it will be known for is being a great autonomous taxi in a few years. I think that's what people will remember the Bolt for.
The fact of the matter is the Bolt won't achieve significant production numbers. If there was a large demand for it we'd see it at this point, but the demand seems to have dropped off quickly after launch.
So it becomes yet another unattractive EV.
Was it because it's ugly?
Was it because it wasn't well marketed?
Was it because it lacks Adaptive Cruise Control?
Was it because it doesn't have a supercharger like network?
As a high production volume reasonably priced EV I'd say it's already failed.
What I do think it will be known for is being a great autonomous taxi in a few years. I think that's what people will remember the Bolt for.
Name a car or truck or motorcycle or airplane with zero compromises.
PS - By the way, the Roadster was groundbreaking but it was never a Porsche Killer nor a Ferrari Killer.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
But a much higher % of people do take 400-500 mile trips. This is an edge case for travel, maybe only 2-3 times/year, but there is hassle involved in renting a car to handle edge cases, plus many drivers want to drive THEIR car, because they are familiar with the driving characteristics, sightlines, and maintenance of the vehicle.
Fail. First of all I can't even buy a new S60 anymore.
The S60's range is 210 miles. If I travel 180 miles and make one lunch stop to add 170 miles, that's 350 miles with minimal inconvenience, since the S60's software locked battery supercharges as quickly as a fully unlocked S75 battery. 20.6% more effective ferry distance than the Bolt.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
For reference, the older S60 (the one with an actual 60kWh pack) charges 120 miles in 30 minutes, from Kmanauto's video.
Tesla Model 3 vs Chevy Bolt
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
The only way the Bolt becomes viable as a long range EV is when (1) The battery becomes capable of DC charging in the 100kW neighborhood and (2) The charging infrastructure at these speeds supports the Bolt.
It's that simple.
It's that simple.
