Tesla Model 3 vs Chevy Bolt

[Jeff N]

This vehicle would make much more sense to be a full on BEV using those LG Chem cells, the upcoming CCS v2 plug, and command a price premium using a Cadillac brand name. Probably shouldn't recycle the ELR name though. A Chevy Camaro starts at just under $30k, the ATS Coupe costs $38k, and adding $20k to the drivetrain for a vehicle that looks like the above... and even with just 60 kWh pack discharging at 4C, gets 320 horsepower, GM can easily ask $50-60k starting price for it. However, it would mean full on commitment to BEVs, including solving all the chicken and egg problems that Tesla is tackling... worldwide charging network, battery cell production, etc.

No thanks, I'll take my $37k Bolt please.

If I wanted a Model S clone I would just buy a real Model S. I could get a CPO S60 today but it's too large to fit comfortably in my garage and would be difficult to park in parts of San Francisco that I visit regularly. A Bolt EV will be dimensionally perfect for the job. Regardless of form and fashion, GM should be more active in helping to establish early higher-speed charging facilities.

For my circumstances and location I think I'll stick with a Bolt until a later revision Model 3 or Model Y comes along in ~4 years.

 

[S'toon]

No thanks, I'll take my $37k Bolt please.

If I wanted a Model S clone I would just buy a real Model S. I could get a CPO S60 today but it's too large to fit comfortably in my garage and would be difficult to park in parts of San Francisco that I visit regularly. A Bolt EV will be dimensionally perfect for the job. Regardless of form and fashion, GM should be more active in helping to establish early higher-speed charging facilities.

For my circumstances and location I think I'll stick with a Bolt until a later revision Model 3 or Model Y comes along in ~4 years.

Why are you even here then? I've been sitting hear reading you praise to high heavens GM, and do nothing but slag Tesla. In this post you state that you're not even really interested in getting even a Model 3. So why are you even here?

 

[stopcrazypp]

DC fast charging isn't what I was referring to. Most of us charge up at home. Only at home.
And no-most cars at 37500 don't do under 7 seconds. Toyota camry, prius, honda accord-no they don't do 7 seconds. If you jump to 45k-yes most of them do. Autopilot costs an extra 2.5k or thereabouts. So if you add sc and autopilot and dual motor you're looking at about 10g's more for the Tesla. Not a fair comparison.

Both the Toyota Camry V6 ($31k) and Accord V6 ($34k) can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. In the same premium car segment as the Model 3, you will find similar. The Prius is actually more of a counterexample, since it is considered a slow car for its class.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No, being indicted would be more embarrassing. It's not legal everywhere to enter an automotive purchase contract with a manufacturer, or to sell a car without a dollar and cents legally binding agreement.

They certainly can do a reservation similar to what Nissan did with the Leaf (at $100). That money is then credited toward the vehicle.

 

[Jeff N]

....For my circumstances and location I think I'll stick with a Bolt until a later revision Model 3 or Model Y comes along in ~4 years.

Why are you even here then? I've been sitting hear reading you praise to high heavens GM, and do nothing but slag Tesla. In this post you state that you're not even really interested in getting even a Model 3. So why are you even here?

Read again, more slowly...

Do I really "do nothing but slag Tesla"? I think I once said I dislike the prototype Model 3 snout but assumed it will be improved and refined for the final production car. That's about it for my "slagging" of Tesla.

I've been following and supporting Tesla for years. I got an HQ tour and a Model S Beta test drive with Jerome Guillen behind the wheel months before the first Founders car deliveries in 2012. That's how much of a Tesla hater I really am.

I guess my crime is providing accurate information and context about non-Tesla products as well as admitting that I drive a 5 year old Volt and plan to drive a Bolt EV until Tesla starts making a smaller cheaper car with the initial production issues worked out. I plead guilty.

 

[Jeff N]

There was speculation that the result was from an LA4 cycle but that was never confirmed or denied by GM, and most certainly was never part of the advert. Typical GM -- always happy to spin the truth so hard it feels like a lie to everybody but fanboys and lawyers.

Not speculation. It was confirmed on the record as city cycle. I'm at a restaurant but can post a link later tonight.

Forgot about posting this until just now.

Under What Conditions is the Chevy Volt's Quoted 40 Mile Electric Range Modelled? - GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site

This article from 2007 says:

GM-Volt: Is the 40 mile all-electric range a MAXIMUM, or is it based on one of the EPA driving profiles?

GM: The 40 mile range is modelled on the EPA city cycle (federal test procedure)...

On the other hand, it goes on to say that this was the target for range at the battery (vehicle?) end of life -- whatever that is defined as.

GM: ... – and the 40 miles is our target for battery END OF LIFE. The EPA city cycle includes a range of starts, stops and accelerations.

This was stated back when the Volt was going to make only 50% of the pack usable. Later they changed it to 65% usable in the final product.

I think it's fair to note discrepancies between what they said early on and what ended up in the production car but it should be noted that they were talking (some might say hyping) details of the car far earlier in the design process than is typical. Usually car companies don't disclose details like this until the beta production prototypes are on the road and they have early real-world measurements rather than software modeling projections or targets.

 

[HanSolo]

In a way, the Volt has no real competition except the BMW i3 REx. The Volt and the i3 REx are the only 2 cars sold that can go anywhere in North America (well, there are SOME areas you'd need a gas can for the i3 REx) yet still have an all-electric range longer than what most commuters require. They are the only untethered "EVs" in existence, but the i3 REx is in a different price segment and has a very poorly thought out range extending system.

The Volt remains today as the most practical EV for sale, going on 6 years.

Don't be too surprised if GM delivers a 2017 Bolt to showrooms that becomes the most practical BEV of all time.

Chevrolet in ingrained with the Corvette Syndrome today:

Chevy makes a sports car, so what do they engineer it to be?

1) It doesn't have the fastest top speed, but it's near the top.
2) It doesn't have the most HP, but it's near the top.
3) It doesn't have the best mileage, but it's near the top.
4) It doesn't have the best handling, but it's near the top.
5) It isn't the cheapest, but it's close.
6) It isn't the most technologically advanced, but it's near the top.
7) It isn't the most reliable, but it's near the top.

The Corvette Syndrome has filtered throughout GM for last 20 years. They want to make the best cars via the balanced approach. They don't have to be the #1 in any category, they need to be top shelf in all categories.

Like the Volt, expect the Bolt to have the balanced approach.

I believe that the BMW i3 is no competitor to the Volt. The i3 with the 2 cylinder is pretty much impractical if some of the reviews are correct about being able to travel up grades and at rural highway speeds once the battery is depleted. Such a small generator can only do so much. I like the Volt concept except I believe my next car either needs to be an ICE or EV as anything in between is a compromise.

 

[Topher]

but then a big bump when the Tesla tax credits expire. Assuming they do.

It can't be that big a bump. When Tesla produces their 200,000th car, they will be producing (according to the plan) about 100,000 cars per quarter. So an additional 100,000-200,000 people will get the full credit. GM plans to be making 30,000 Bolts per year, so an additional 8,000-15,000 people will get the full credit. Both companies will be near the 200,000 range when their respective cars come out.

Thank you kindly.

 

[JeffK]

No thanks, I'll take my $37k Bolt please.

Good luck with your future bolt.

Meanwhile I'll be in a Model 3 giving ladies free rides while in autonomous mode so I can have some hands free time. Yup

 

[ElectricLove]

We have only seen $80K priced TESLA's, and they are not as well built as their counterparts in that price-range... I love TESLA's b/c of their technology and own them b/c of that but I am not disillusioned to believe they are built better than other vehicles. I think it is tough to say its a TESLA so we know its going to be really nice and the Bolt is a Chevy so we know its going to be "cheapie" (this is the sense I get from a bunch of posts in this thread)...

The reality is we have never seen what TESLA can build with a more "limited" price-point in mind, everyone assumes it will be just like the Model S but smaller, I would like to suggest that won't be the case in production, I don't doubt they will be nice cars but I do doubt they will be as well built and high quality as the Model S and I also assert that the Model S isn't as well-built and high-quality as it should be...

I currently own a Volt, a TESLA Roadster and a TESLA Model S (as well as Leaf and myriad of others previously); so I've spent many hours driving 10's of thousands of miles in each, I can say with honesty that the Volt is the best "built" vehicle (considering welds, fitment of panels, quality of materials, etc.), I can also say honestly that the TESLA's are way more fun to drive! They are obviously way more sexy and desirable and thus consistently get positive attention which has equated to huge pre-orders...

I also found it interesting that in the OP's post he states TESLA wins range but in his description asserts the Bolt may be 240 vs the 3 @ 215...

The BIGGEST wins for TESLA which will keep them ahead on these things is Autopilot and Supercharging, these 2 features are THE defining features that make TESLA objectively "better" (more attractive to buyers)... Once Chevy develops their own AP integration and SAE QuickCharge network develops (out of market demand most likely) those factors are moot and the Model 3 vs Bolt very much favors the Bolt...

 

[ElectricLove]

I'd also add another pro for Bolt is that CCS charging is spec'd for a MUCH higher rate of charge. The battery pack in the Bolt, theoretically, will be able to recharge in 10 minutes for a bulk 80% charge using the CCS standard. Obviously, the lack of locations for this charging standard negates this as a big benefit but I believe that in a few years it will be a realistic argument.

Here is an interesting article about Quick Charging technologies:
A Simple Guide to DC Fast Charging

 

[techmaven]

I'd also add another pro for Bolt is that CCS charging is spec'd for a MUCH higher rate of charge. The battery pack in the Bolt, theoretically, will be able to recharge in 10 minutes for a bulk 80% charge using the CCS standard. Obviously, the lack of locations for this charging standard negates this as a big benefit but I believe that in a few years it will be a realistic argument.

Here is an interesting article about Quick Charging technologies:
A Simple Guide to DC Fast Charging

Why do you think that the NMC chemistry in the Bolt would tolerate more than 5C with any kind of long cycle life?

 

[flyinghook]

I like GM cars (and have owned several), but I HATE the aveo. it's so short, even with stability control, in the winter the ass can overtake the front (done it, I had to keep the car under control around a corner my longer saturn sadan would have made it around with no stability control and no drama, plus it's much smaller than my current car, much less the tesla. I don't see how an aveo would have more luggage space than a car much larger than it with a frunk. it might have better access to the space since it's a hatchback, but not more space. My guess is lyft went with GM because they have been around longer than tesla with a more established dealer/service infrastructure. as much as I like tesla, I honestly think they haven't been around long enough to be able to handle fleet maintenance.

the tesla is going to be a bigger more upmarket car, most likely with a superior driveline, and possibly range. I'll take the unfamiliar tesla over my typical favorite GM.

 

[Az_Rael]

I like GM cars (and have owned several), but I HATE the aveo. it's so short, even with stability control, in the winter the ass can overtake the front (done it, I had to keep the car under control around a corner my longer saturn sadan would have made it around with no stability control and no drama, plus it's much smaller than my current car, much less the tesla. I don't see how an aveo would have more luggage space than a car much larger than it with a frunk. it might have better access to the space since it's a hatchback, but not more space. My guess is lyft went with GM because they have been around longer than tesla with a more established dealer/service infrastructure. as much as I like tesla, I honestly think they haven't been around long enough to be able to handle fleet maintenance.

the tesla is going to be a bigger more upmarket car, most likely with a superior driveline, and possibly range. I'll take the unfamiliar tesla over my typical favorite GM.

If the Bolt is anything like the Volt, it will not resemble its platform "buddies" at all. I detest Chevy Cruzes the few times I have been stuck in them, but my Volt is a wonderful car. Smooth, responsive, quiet, solid handling - polar opposite of a Cruz even though they are built on the same platform.

I don't think a Bolt will have more overall luggage space, but it would potentially be able to handle bulky things better due to the hatch. Folks with large dogs, bikes, etc.

 

[Tiberius]

We have only seen $80K priced TESLA's, and they are not as well built as their counterparts in that price-range... I love TESLA's b/c of their technology and own them b/c of that but I am not disillusioned to believe they are built better than other vehicles. I think it is tough to say its a TESLA so we know its going to be really nice and the Bolt is a Chevy so we know its going to be "cheapie" (this is the sense I get from a bunch of posts in this thread)...

The reality is we have never seen what TESLA can build with a more "limited" price-point in mind, everyone assumes it will be just like the Model S but smaller, I would like to suggest that won't be the case in production, I don't doubt they will be nice cars but I do doubt they will be as well built and high quality as the Model S and I also assert that the Model S isn't as well-built and high-quality as it should be...

I currently own a Volt, a TESLA Roadster and a TESLA Model S (as well as Leaf and myriad of others previously); so I've spent many hours driving 10's of thousands of miles in each, I can say with honesty that the Volt is the best "built" vehicle (considering welds, fitment of panels, quality of materials, etc.), I can also say honestly that the TESLA's are way more fun to drive! They are obviously way more sexy and desirable and thus consistently get positive attention which has equated to huge pre-orders...

I also found it interesting that in the OP's post he states TESLA wins range but in his description asserts the Bolt may be 240 vs the 3 @ 215...

The BIGGEST wins for TESLA which will keep them ahead on these things is Autopilot and Supercharging, these 2 features are THE defining features that make TESLA objectively "better" (more attractive to buyers)... Once Chevy develops their own AP integration and SAE QuickCharge network develops (out of market demand most likely) those factors are moot and the Model 3 vs Bolt very much favors the Bolt...

Anyone choosing to drive a GM can't honestly complain about the quality of Tesla... or most other cars, at any price range. It clearly isn't a priority for you.

 

[glenhurst]

Once Chevy develops their own AP integration and SAE QuickCharge network develops (out of market demand most likely) those factors are moot and the Model 3 vs Bolt very much favors the Bolt...

I think there's a flaw in your argument, at least as stated. It implies that Tesla makes no further improvements in the Model 3 in the time that Chevy is adding AP and building out a charging network. Since GM has said they don't to even do the latter, it seems like it gives Tesla quite a bit of time during which they are likely to add all sorts of additional features, as they have demonstrated they do with the S & X.

 

[N5329K]

The quality of design that Tesla brings to EV's is vastly better than GM's quality of design. I found the early Volts cheezy, flimsy, cramped, seating-limited and why on earth build an oversized driveshaft tunnel to put batteries in? Just not good thinking about first principles, which is something Tesla excels at.
Quality of manufacture is something Tesla will have to work on, because it's not much- if any- better than GM's. And looking over at the Model X threads, it may be considerably worse. Letting your early customers be beta testers is definitely NOT going to work with the Model 3's different demographics and bigger numbers. Most M3 buyers are going to want a car that works and not a work in progress. Pushing cars out the door and hoping for the best (as they seem to have done for the Model X) is not a smart strategy for revolutionizing transportation.
Robin​

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'd also add another pro for Bolt is that CCS charging is spec'd for a MUCH higher rate of charge. The battery pack in the Bolt, theoretically, will be able to recharge in 10 minutes for a bulk 80% charge using the CCS standard. Obviously, the lack of locations for this charging standard negates this as a big benefit but I believe that in a few years it will be a realistic argument.

Here is an interesting article about Quick Charging technologies:
A Simple Guide to DC Fast Charging

The CCS standard isn't speced for higher rate of charge. The current Bolt is speced for 50kW (125A charging). The Model S had been doing 120kW (370A) charging for quite some time. The next gen CCS 2.0 is aiming at 350A, but that is only a draft. Right now CCS maxes out at 200A (90kW at 450V, but only 80kW at 400V and probably 65kW in the real world), significantly slower than superchargers.

 

[melindav]

based on the quality of materials on my Solstice, there is nothing Chevy could do that would convince me to every consider buying another GM.
with less than 40k miles, on a car that 99% of the time without a passenger: the exterior passenger door handle broke (because it was made of lightweight plastic), all four dash vents broke - including the passenger side ones that are never adjusted, a cupholder broke, the convertible top's lightweight linkage bent so it could not be closed properly, and those are just the things that come to mind off the top of my head.
They certainly didn't do Franz any favors by cutting corners on materials

 

[RiverBrick]

I'll take my $37k Bolt please.

Will a base $37,500 Bolt come with a quick-charge port? If not, how much will it cost as a stand-alone option? Or, do you think you might have to purchase a bundle of options in order to be able to recharge at 50 kW?