Tesla Model 3 vs Chevy Bolt

[JohnSnowNW]

But KmanAuto mentions that this was his fastest charge ever and is under "ideal" conditions. I don't have my own S60 so I can't speak to which is more realistic.

Yes, and the point is that you're quoting GM numbers, which more than likely are idealized, but comparing them to non-idealized numbers for the Tesla pack...

 

[Jeff N]

Yes, and the point is that you're quoting GM numbers, which more than likely are idealized, but comparing them to non-idealized numbers for the Tesla pack...

Although they don't have a history of doing that. Their Volt charging estimates are pessemistic.

 

[Jeff N]

Actually no journalist was able to get GM to confirm that the 200+ mile claim refers to EPA. I don't think there is any quote from GM that refers to what GM expects EPA to be. They only say it gets 200+ miles in internal testing, but no reference to what cycle they tested on.

They are very skittish for legal reasons about making claims in advance of filing official paperwork for EPA estimates and having them accepted.

If you look at their press release website you will see that in the year before the official Volt EPA range they were discussing "GM-estimated 50 mile range" for battery-only driving only to later file official paperwork for an EPA combined city&highway EV range of 53 miles. It's clear from the context and pattern of their "GM estimates" both for the Volt and other cars that these are preliminary estimates of the eventual EPA filing.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Although they don't have a history of doing that. Their Volt charging estimates are pessemistic.

The Volt isn't entirely reliant on charging. Either way Kman's may have been under ideal conditions, but is a real world example. There seems little reason to dismiss it in favor of another data point.

 

[stopcrazypp]

They are very skittish for legal reasons about making claims in advance of filing official paperwork for EPA estimates and having them accepted.

If you look at their press release website you will see that in the year before the official Volt EPA range they were discussing "GM-estimated 50 mile range" for battery-only driving only to later file official paperwork for an EPA combined city&highway EV range of 53 miles. It's clear from the context and pattern of their "GM estimates" both for the Volt and other cars that these are preliminary estimates of the eventual EPA filing.

I don't think there is any legal reason to be skittish about saying something like "we expect more than 200 miles of EPA range." I feel it is more likely because they are just on the borderline and still has a chance of coming just under 200 miles EPA.

Actually, for the 2016 Volt, although they didn't put it in the press release, they told journalists they expected 50 miles EPA at the production unveiling (and they were clear it was EPA):
"Chevy projects that the EPA will rate the 2016 Volt at 50 miles of electric range, up substantially from the current model's rated range of 38 miles."
2016 Chevrolet Volt: 50-Mile Range, 41 MPG, Five Seats, All New (Photos)

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Looks to me like the height of M3 is about the same, but both length and width are substantially less than MS

The most important surface in drag is the leading surface. Doing away with the faux grille on the Model 3, the look now seemingly adopted as a Tesla calling card, looks to be much more efficient at cutting into the wind.

I think that Tesla learned a lot about that nose as they put it in the wind tunnel during Model X R+D, and it only made sense to use it (or its general shape/look) across the lineup.

I think the Model 3 we saw on stage is more aerodynamic than a Model S with the (now) "legacy" nose.

 

[jsanford]

Just looked at the website. The car is so ugly. I wish I could say looks didn't matter.

 

[Drivin]

You know that fact that Tesla has just had $14 billion dropped in their lap with projected sales of the Model 3 is a game changer. GM will no longer be able to claim to have an advantage of being the "bigger car company" with a resource advantage. Tesla is moving into the big leagues

Apples and oranges.

Tesla has 14B in potential orders over 2 years That 14B will require a certain amount of money to deliver on. Maybe 12B or so.
GM has 154b in orders per year


GM has 24B in cash and short term investments and another 50B in receivables and inventory.

So a bit silly to claim that GM will no longer be able to have advantage of being larger. Lol.

 

[Topher]

I don't think there is any legal reason to be skittish about saying something like "we expect more than 200 miles of EPA range."

So you don't remember the original press releases for the Volt, where GM made a prediction of 200 MPG, based on the then EPA procedure, only to have the EPA change the procedure leaving them looking like liars?

Thank you kindly.

 

[SageBrush]

So you don't remember the original press releases for the Volt, where GM made a prediction of 200 MPG, based on the then EPA procedure, only to have the EPA change the procedure leaving them looking like liars?

Thank you kindly.

My recall is a bit different. GM advertised an MPGe predicated on EPA acceptance of a submitted GM calculation method. The GM proposal was not then in use, or later adopted by the EPA, thus the egg on face.

Those days GM was also happy to promise 40 miles EV range on 8 KWh.

 

[Jeff N]

My recall is a bit different. GM advertised an MPGe predicated on EPA acceptance of a submitted GM calculation method. The GM proposal was not then in use, or later adopted by the EPA, thus the egg on face.

Those days GM was also happy to promise 40 miles EV range on 8 KWh.

Well, it wasn't MPGe -- it was an MPG calculation formula that the EPA was considering and ultimately did not adopt.

However, the European NEDC test cycle regulations did adopt a similar calculation and the European flavor of the 2011 Volt known as the Opel Ampera was officially rated as 196 mpg (US gallon) and 235 mpg (UK gallon). In 2013 and 2015 it would have been even higher if the tests were resubmitted due to the incrementally improved battery capacity.

If the 2nd generation Volt were sold in Europe it would likely be rated over 300 mpg (US) due to the larger battery range and modestly improved gasoline mileage.

The 40 miles on 8 kWh claim made for the prototype in 2007 was a bit too optimistic but it was based on the EPA city cycle (not combined) and was stated in 2007 before EPA made the window sticker results more conservative.

 

[SageBrush]

The 40 miles on 8 kWh claim made for the prototype in 2007 was a bit too optimistic but it was based on the EPA city cycle .

Just a bit.

There was speculation that the result was from an LA4 cycle but that was never confirmed or denied by GM, and most certainly was never part of the advert. Typical GM -- always happy to spin the truth so hard it feels like a lie to everybody but fanboys and lawyers.

 

[Jeff N]

Just a bit.

There was speculation that the result was from an LA4 cycle but that was never confirmed or denied by GM, and most certainly was never part of the advert. Typical GM -- always happy to spin the truth so hard it feels like a lie to everybody but fanboys and lawyers.

Not speculation. It was confirmed on the record as city cycle. I'm at a restaurant but can post a link later tonight.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So you don't remember the original press releases for the Volt, where GM made a prediction of 200 MPG, based on the then EPA procedure, only to have the EPA change the procedure leaving them looking like liars?

Thank you kindly.

GM used an MPG rating procedure that the EPA told them was in a work-in-process and would be changed. GM was 100% aware of that.
The Chevy Volt’s 230 MPG Rating. What Does It Mean? - HybridCars.com
Volt's 230 MPG Number Not EPA-Approved

The EPA range procedure on the other hand has no scheduled changes in the near term. As I noted in my comment, GM didn't have qualms mentioning to the journalists that the new (2017) Volt would get over 50 miles of EPA electric range.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

This has to be the battle Chevy has been waiting for. So without further ado, lets compare and judge this EV prize fight.

Pricing
Tesla has stated from the beginning that the Model 3 would cost the consumer $35,000.00 before federal and state tax credits. They delivered on that promise at the recent unveiling. Chevy’s Bolt will cost $37,500 before federal and state tax credits. Let’s stop here for a second and make sure everyone understands what a tax credit is. The tax credit does not mean everyone will get it. It will depend on multiple factors when filling your taxes. So we need to measure these cars by the MSRP without calculating the tax credit. If you decide to lease either car, then you don’t get the tax credit at all. Now, I know there could be an argument between which car will have the most technology in the base price, but I have to say with Tesla’s track record on delivering technology in their cars, they will crush Chevy. The winner is Tesla!

Winner: Tesla Model 3

Range
Chevy’s website states that the Bolt’s range will be more than 200 miles per charge. Tesla is stating their Model 3 will have 215 miles per charge. Since Tesla is telling us that 215 miles per charge is just the beginning, one would think there will be options to get the car up to 300 miles per charge maybe even higher. The Internet rumors have been saying Chevy might hit the 240 miles per charge range, which would be very nice but the one thing most can all agree on is both cars will not hit their EPA stated numbers. There are just too many factors that can hinder range on electric vehicles. I have to give this round to Tesla as they have better battery technology to date.

Winner: Tesla Model 3

Technology
With three vehicles in the Tesla line-up, we know what to expect from Tesla in regards to their technology from AutoPilot to the big computer screen that runs the whole car (there are only 2 buttons/switches on the dash). With Chevy, we really just don’t have a lot to go on yet other than what’s on their website. So far, from everything I have read about the Bolt’s technology, it seems they have a lot crammed into their base car, but they are going up against Tesla who really is a technology company first. Technology goes to Tesla!

Winner: Telsa Model 3

Performance
This will be a quick one. Tesla is faster than the Bolt. Elon said it best “We do not build slow cars” Tesla wins!

Winner: Tesla Model 3

The Look
Now here is where we come to the fork in the road. I assume Chevy’s design engineers want to wow us with their design capabilities, but the powers to be at Chevy are traditionally old school guys who think a car should look a certain way. Really guys? Why don’t you listen to the consumer? We want edgy in-your- face cars. Cars that will wow people as they pass by. Cars with such a wow factor they fly off the lots. That’s the space where Tesla lives. More wow factor in every design. You go Tesla! We know who wins this one don’t we? All you have to do is look at both cars side by side.

Winner: Tesla Model 3

Delivery Schedule
I have to admit; Tesla has not been the most punctual car manufacture as it relates to keeping a delivery date. Chevy has many more people and money to throw at production issues to make sure they hit their delivery dates. I just hope that Tesla has really learned from their past mistakes and can prove everyone wrong. Crossing my fingers…… The winner of this category goes to Chevy.

Winner: Chevy Bolt

Charging
One word ‘Supercharger” Enough said. Tesla kills Chevy. Chevy has no charging infrastructure and they rely on others to build it. That’s going to work, right? I blogged recently on this topic. It was called “Range anxiety – The Electric Highway” Please read that blog.

Winner: Tesla Model 3



Well there you go. I really feel with all the information we have so far on both cars; Tesla wins hands down over Chevy. Tesla might be a young car company, but they are truly reshaping the automotive industry like it or not.

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@elonmusk @chevyboltnews @teslamotors @chevrolet

Awesome post. Thank you! And recently saw a Bolt test mule in person... it DOES NOT look better in real life.

 

[voip-ninja]

It is not a good looking car, but they will sell quite a few because it is a bit more utilitarian than Model S, will possibly include more standard features at the entry price point and most importantly will be available first with few concerns about tax credits drying up immediately. Chevy also has a massive dealer network to care for them.

You will be able to test drive one and take it home the same day not wait 2+ years for it without ever having driven it.

I detest the Volt but know several people who walked in and bought one because it was immediately available.

 

[CoastalCruiser]

...and most importantly will be available first with few concerns about tax credits drying up immediately. Chevy also has a massive dealer network to care for them.

That actually is the first reason I've seen for anticipating decent Bolt sales since the Tesla first quarter conference call when the updated M3 production figures were released. Unless there is a substantial price adjustment on the Bolt it's hard to see how the car will sell in volume.

So perhaps some good initial sales upon first release, but not huge since the Model 3 will not be all that far behind... but then a big bump when the Tesla tax credits expire. Assuming they do.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Apples and oranges.

Tesla has 14B in potential orders over 2 years That 14B will require a certain amount of money to deliver on. Maybe 12B or so.
GM has 154b in orders per year


GM has 24B in cash and short term investments and another 50B in receivables and inventory.

So a bit silly to claim that GM will no longer be able to have advantage of being larger. Lol.

GM still have some advantages, but I think the gap in production costs between 14B in orders and 50B in orders is far smaller than the gap in production costs between 2B in orders and 50B in orders.

That actually is the first reason I've seen for anticipating decent Bolt sales since the Tesla first quarter conference call when the updated M3 production figures were released. Unless there is a substantial price adjustment on the Bolt it's hard to see how the car will sell in volume.

So perhaps some good initial sales upon first release, but not huge since the Model 3 will not be all that far behind... but then a big bump when the Tesla tax credits expire. Assuming they do.

I think that depends on what Tesla delivers. I can see a situation where Tesla's tax credit expires, and the reduction in pack costs from the gigafactory allows them to shave another $2500 off the price of the 3, which means a Bolt is only $2500 less than a 3 even after the tax credit. If the 3 provides better acceleration, supercharging for a modest fee (I'm thinking ~$1000-1500 alone), and other advantages, Tesla may retain a sales lead for years.

 

[alseTrick]

Considering Leaf sales are down this year (with the anticipation/reveal of the Model 3?), I expect a similar fate for Bolt's release.

 

[CT200h]

We all know superchargers are a huge advantage for Tesla 3 over Bolt. But I wouldnt mind having optional CCS connector on my model 3. That would give me great flexibility when I am not on long distance trips. I would be able to use Tesla dest chargers, J1772, and CCS DCFC units. Tesla joined CCS , hopefully they will offer integrated CCS or a low cost CCS adaptor.