Tesla Motors current and future battery degradation warranty...

[Chickenlittle]

Issuing new warranty terms connects potential new buyers WITH the company and WITH the existing customers in multiple ways. Two examples:

It is in the interest of existing customers that warranty doesn't attract new buyers on terms that backfire financially. Point for lowballing warranty terms.
It is in the interest of existing customers that warranty doesn't leave them in the rain, should product malfunction. Point for highballing warranty terms.

Choose your side.

So I have done the ver 6.0 update and now have 10 more miles of range as compared to original range 20 months and 23000 miles later. Will I have to now pay for the extra range. I mean it would only be fair since I didn't pay for them originally. Should they be rated at the cost of the car or just the battery. Let me know what you all think so I can cut them a check. I hope you all will pay your shares as well

 

[breser]

Firstly, you are attributing my words to somebody else in your quote.

Fixed not sure how I managed to do that.

All warranties are like this. When I bought my truck with a "bumper-to-bumper warranty", it turns out it excluded things that not only were "within the bumpers", but didn't account for normal wear-and-tear at all.

Yes all warranties have exclusions and yes warranties exclude consumable parts. The term "bumper-to-bumper warranty" is misleading too. I don't think Tesla should get a pass from avoiding misleading consumers just because other manufacturers/dealers have done so in the past, I expect more of them. Their brand image implies they're trying to be better than traditional manufacturers in a lot of ways, this should be one of them. I'd also argue that, Tesla has more of a responsibility here than ICE manufacturers because the technology is unfamiliar to new consumers.

Every marketing material that talks about warranties I've ever seen before has had fine print with more details or a link to the actual text. Tesla's specifically promoting their warranty on the US front page without anything like this or on the blog it links to. To find the exact text you have to happen to find your way to the specs page and click on a PDF link. On the UK site I can't find the warranty text linked anywhere (though I haven't seen them promoting the warranty on that site either). I haven't bothered to look for other countries.

Take a look at Hyundai's page about their warranty, pay particular attention to the fact that they put an asterisk on the lifetime hybrid battery warranty and then explain it covers the replacement and recycling cost of a failed battery:
America's Best Warranty

Tesla needs to have a page like this. Make it clear, up front and have the top level billing that their warranty promotion have. That's good for consumers, they'll be more likely to be informed and it's good for Tesla because they're less likely to have angry consumers that misunderstood what was warrantied.

 

[brianman]

So I have done the ver 6.0 update and now have 10 more miles of range as compared to original range 20 months and 23000 miles later. Will I have to now pay for the extra range. I mean it would only be fair since I didn't pay for them originally. Should they be rated at the cost of the car or just the battery. Let me know what you all think so I can cut them a check. I hope you all will pay your shares as well

Fair warning: Keep an eye on your numbers. I "gained" (on 90% charge) 18 rated range for less than a day with 6.0 (it's now back to 221 from 239 another day later).

 

[kbeckley]

Not to be too repetitive but what problem is Tesla needing to solve? Without any sort of natural degradation warranty they are selling every car they produce. Cars are not sitting on their lots. Why would they do anything until they need to? When they do need to put a number down (because not having a number is a reason some people are not buying and they have unsold car sitting around getting dusty) they will be in a better place to put out most aggressive number they can while still being confident about future warranty claims.

Somewhere I read in this thread that it was felt the Model S had a major design flaw because of the degradation (at least that is how I read it). Pffft. Who has ever bought a car from Tesla that has never owned a cell phone or a laptop? I fully expect my battery to degrade. Frankly, given the record of the battery in every phone I have owned it is amazing that many buyers (with little knowledge of active cooling, different chemistries, etc) take the leap of faith at all.

Last point: My last ICE car was never warranted against decreased MPG performance (which every ICE experiences). Why? Because history told us it wasn't a big problem as the degradation was small. If Tesla gains a reputation with the Model S that the batteries last you might never see a degradation warranty.

 

[Chickenlittle]

Not to be too repetitive but what problem is Tesla needing to solve? Without any sort of natural degradation warranty they are selling every car they produce. Cars are not sitting on their lots. Why would they do anything until they need to? When they do need to put a number down (because not having a number is a reason some people are not buying and they have unsold car sitting around getting dusty) they will be in a better place to put out most aggressive number they can while still being confident about future warranty claims.

Somewhere I read in this thread that it was felt the Model S had a major design flaw because of the degradation (at least that is how I read it). Pffft. Who has ever bought a car from Tesla that has never owned a cell phone or a laptop? I fully expect my battery to degrade. Frankly, given the record of the battery in every phone I have owned it is amazing that many buyers (with little knowledge of active cooling, different chemistries, etc) take the leap of faith at all.

Last point: My last ICE car was never warranted against decreased MPG performance (which every ICE experiences). Why? Because history told us it wasn't a big problem as the degradation was small. If Tesla gains a reputation with the Model S that the batteries last you might never see a degradation warranty.

No started as a pr campaign against tesla by a roadster owner who abused roadster battery and believes he can force tesla to give him a new battery by a campaign against tesla. Look under roaster and Kevin sharpe thread

 

[scaesare]

Again, I feel it's important to distinguish between that which meets or exceeds the status quo, versus that which is misleading or disingenuous.

Imploring Tesla to provide additional warranty coverage is something many feel would help defuse the issue in the minds of new buyers, and give them peace of mind. Several posters have pointed out that some other manufacturers provide such (i.e. 70% after XXX time/miles), thus Tesla doing likewise would meet the bar in their minds. Others have pointed out Tesla strives to "be better than" the existing industry, and by providing more disclosure and customer education they could raise the bar even higher.

Given that Tesla has set no expectation previously regarding a degradation warranty, should they decide to also offer such a warranty in the future, they would again be providing additional owner protection. I certainly would applaud that.

However... to state that they have misled potential buyers thus far is to ignore several things: There is no battery degradation coverage promised, and in fact is explicitly excluded. Battery degradation among electric "devices" is rather common knowledge, Tesla, nor other manufacturers attempt to hide this. Tesla has even blogged about battery life. All vehicles have "wear items" (brakes, clutches, etc...), as well as "degradation" issues (battery life, MPG, emissions output, etc..) that aren't warrantied.

The claim that because Tesla is touting what they DO warranty, but failing to prominently disclose degradation issues on "marketing" pages, is misleading people is at odds with many other similar efforts.

I just went to Toyota and there's no warranty info or disclosure I could see prominently on their page for a Prius. I had to click through the "build" process to get to warranty info, and here it is:

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage

Hybrid-related components for hybrid vehicles are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Warranty and Maintenance Guide for details.


For complete details about Toyota's warranties, please refer to the applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet or see your Toyota dealer.

Nothing about degradation, and those two additional referenced documents are not links... I'd have to go dig for them.

Looking at Chevy's Volt web site pages, again there's nothing prominent about degradation as part of the "marketing" of the vehicle. If I scroll to the footer text, there's a link to the warranty page, where I again have to click again to get to the Volt/Hybrid specifics, however it's certainly more useful than Toyota's:

Like all batteries, the amount of energy that the high-voltage “propulsion” battery can store will decrease with time and miles driven. Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10 percent to as much as 30 percent of capacity over the warranty period. A dealer service technician will determine if the battery energy capacity (kWh storage) is within the proper limit, given the age and mileage of the vehicle. Your Volt battery warranty replacement may not return your vehicle to “as-new” condition, but it will make your Volt fully operational appropriate to its age and mileage.

Neither of those two significant manufacturers of EV/Hybird vehicles are undertaking a customer education campaign on their "marketing" pages regarding battery degradation. Finding their coverage information is roughly on-par with finding Tesla's. Therefore I have to wonder why Tesla is being categorized as "misleading"?

If you want Tesla to more prominently disclose the issues surrounding battery degradation then fine.. let's recognize that doing so sets the bar even higher, and you are asking for even more of them. But to condemn them as being misleading today for not including in their marketing collateral the information that every potential buyer should o as part of their due diligence in purchasing ANY big ticket item or new technology seems a bit much.

 

[mknox]

Battery degradation warranty is exactly the same thing as mileage warranty on tires. Or paint damage, or seat wear or steering wheel wear. Battery is a consumable thing and as such there cannot be any reasonable warranty to how fast it will or will not be consumed.

FWIW, I've had ICE car lead acid batteries with a degradation warranty. If under test the cold cranking amps were below a specific value (even though the car may crank over albeit slowly) I would get a partial or full cost replacement, depending on it's age. These type of things are not unheard of.

 

[breser]

However... to state that they have misled potential buyers thus far is to ignore several things: There is no battery degradation coverage promised, and in fact is explicitly excluded. Battery degradation among electric "devices" is rather common knowledge, Tesla, nor other manufacturers attempt to hide this. Tesla has even blogged about battery life. All vehicles have "wear items" (brakes, clutches, etc...), as well as "degradation" issues (battery life, MPG, emissions output, etc..) that aren't warrantied.

Absolutely nobody in this thread has ever argued that people don't understand that batteries degrade. In fact the crux of my argument depends on the assumption that the average consumer understands this. I don't think Tesla has to do very much to explain that to people. In fact the number one question I get is "How often do the batteries need to be replaced and what will it cost." None of these people are thinking that one day the battery will just completely fail.

The claim that because Tesla is touting what they DO warranty, but failing to prominently disclose degradation issues on "marketing" pages, is misleading people is at odds with many other similar efforts.

Again just because other companies do a crummy job with informing consumers doesn't create an excuse for Tesla. Tesla should do a better job explaining this because it'll result in happier customers. Tesla depends on the success of EVs. Happier customers helps prove that an EV is a valid option and raises all boats with respect to EVs. Unhappy customers, even if they are unfairly unhappy doesn't.

I just went to Toyota and there's no warranty info or disclosure I could see prominently on their page for a Prius. I had to click through the "build" process to get to warranty info, and here it is:

Nothing about degradation, and those two additional referenced documents are not links... I'd have to go dig for them.

On the Prius pages I don't see anything about a warranty at all (actually the word warranty doesn't appear at all). That's the point. Tesla is going out of their way to promote the fact that they have a good battery (and drive train) warranty. That marketing effort (started due to the drive train issues) is creating incorrect understanding in the market about what is warrantied. Toyota doesn't even talk about a warranty, which is shame on them. Given their behavior with their marketing and EVs I don't think I'd look to Toyota for an example of a company that's being well behaved on that front either.

I used Hyundai as an example because they are doing exactly what Tesla is doing, touting their warranty as a selling point. Specifically in their case referring to it as "America's Best Warranty."

Looking at Chevy's Volt web site pages, again there's nothing prominent about degradation as part of the "marketing" of the vehicle. If I scroll to the footer text, there's a link to the warranty page, where I again have to click again to get to the Volt/Hybrid specifics, however it's certainly more useful than Toyota's:

Based on this sentence I'd say that Chevrolet is warrantying battery degredation:

A dealer service technician will determine if the battery energy capacity (kWh storage) is within the proper limit, given the age and mileage of the vehicle.

They of course don't bother to tell you what those exact limits are but they say as little as 10% or as much as 30%.

Given that they're not trumpeting a battery warranty (the battery isn't mentioned at all in the warranty info on the Volt page) and they are actually covering degradation I don't really see why I would expect them to explain that they aren't doing that.

Neither of those two significant manufacturers of EV/Hybird vehicles are undertaking a customer education campaign on their "marketing" pages regarding battery degradation. Finding their coverage information is roughly on-par with finding Tesla's. Therefore I have to wonder why Tesla is being categorized as "misleading"?

I'm not expecting Tesla to teach about battery degradation. Like I mentioned before I believe consumers are generally already aware of this. What I expect Tesla to do is to make their warranty information clear if they're going to tout the warranty so prominently.

Most peoples biggest concerns with their battery is range degradation exactly because of the point that many people have experience with batteries in laptops and cell phones. I've never had a battery just up and completely fail in on of those devices. I've certainly had the charge degrade to the point that I'm not happy with the performance.

If you want Tesla to more prominently disclose the issues surrounding battery degradation then fine.. let's recognize that doing so sets the bar even higher, and you are asking for even more of them. But to condemn them as being misleading today for not including in their marketing collateral the information that every potential buyer should o as part of their due diligence in purchasing ANY big ticket item or new technology seems a bit much.

I'm not saying that a buyer shouldn't do due diligence. If you buy a Tesla and end up with battery degradation and you're unhappy about it not being warrantied I don't have a lot of sympathy for you. But I also won't feel a lot of sympathy for Tesla if they end up with some unhappy customers about the range of their vehicles not being warrantied in a few years from now. Both sides have obligations to try and avoid misunderstanding. I hope that this thread helps encourage buyers to understand their warranty. I also hope this thread encourages Tesla to do a better job presenting that information to the buyers.

FWIW, I've had ICE car lead acid batteries with a degradation warranty. If under test the cold cranking amps were below a specific value (even though the car may crank over albeit slowly) I would get a partial or full cost replacement, depending on it's age. These type of things are not unheard of.

Yup. I actually had a battery I bought 2 years ago for my truck replaced because it came with a 3 year warranty and when I had the oil changed they told me the battery had a failed cell. The battery still worked but it wasn't hold as much of a charge as it should and the tech noticed the vehicle took longer to crank than it should have. Went to the place I got the battery they hooked it up to a test unit and it said the battery was bad. They replaced the battery at no cost to me.

 

[WarpedOne]

Yup. I actually had a battery I bought 2 years ago for my truck replaced because it came with a 3 year warranty and when I had the oil changed they told me the battery had a failed cell. The battery still worked but it wasn't hold as much of a charge as it should and the tech noticed the vehicle took longer to crank than it should have. Went to the place I got the battery they hooked it up to a test unit and it said the battery was bad. They replaced the battery at no cost to me.

Yup, Tesla does the same with roadster and MS. On this forum alone there are numerous reports of replaced battery packs.

How can it be if they do not warrant degradation!?!?!?!?!'1111oneoneone ...

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Yup, Tesla does the same with roadster and MS.

Nope, Tesla are no longer regularly replacing packs on the Roadster, and according to their 'warranty' are under no obligation whatsoever to replace packs regardless of the degradation.

For me the fundamental issue is that Tesla use the term "infinite mile warranty" knowing full well that it excludes battery degradation... IMO that is morally indefinable because we all know people will (and do) assume it includes battery degradation.

BMW and Nissan have already addressed this... Tesla must have the data and should implement a degradation warranty so that we have a line in the sand and can move on.

 

[WarpedOne]

Nope, Tesla are no longer regularly replacing packs on the Roadster, and according to their 'warranty' are under no obligation whatsoever to replace packs regardless of the degradation.

No sir, you are wrong.
When degradation is excessive regarding age, cycles and other "usage factors", the battery is replaced. If one brick fails like in dead, it is replaced with a working brick/sheet.
Your battery is completely normal. Doubly normal regarding your abuse pattern.

Try demanding a warranty replacement on your brake pads, because they wore out.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

When degradation is excessive regarding age, cycles and other "usage factors", the battery is replaced.

My battery was faulty on the day it was delivered and despite a repair by Tesla has continued to degrade. It's a great example of why customers need a degradation warranty because relying on Tesla's good will is not enough for most people.

If I had purchased a BMW or Nissan then I would know today exactly when they will step in if the worst happens. With Tesla I'm left hoping my battery fails completely before the warranty runs out. As someone who believes in "Tesla as a concept, a brand, and a suite of products" how do you think it will "ultimately prevails and lasts" if they treat customers like this?

 

[WarpedOne]

My battery was faulty on the day it was delivered

Yes, we already know you strongly believe that. Strength of your belief does not change reality though. It is still wrong belief.

despite a repair by Tesla has continued to degrade.

And that is a surprise to you?
Do you even understand what "battery degradation" means?
Are you so upset about your break pad wearing away? And why not?

As someone who believes in "Tesla as a concept, a brand, and a suite of products" how do you think it will "ultimately prevails and lasts" if they treat customers like this?

Yes.
And it is a simple case why: if my car has 4% degradation while similarly "old" and "similarly used" other cars only got 1% degradation I am obliged to replacement.

With a warranty set at 90%, they MUST say Ef Of, you are still OK.

 

[Chickenlittle]

My battery was faulty on the day it was delivered and despite a repair by Tesla has continued to degrade. It's a great example of why customers need a degradation warranty because relying on Tesla's good will is not enough for most people.

If I had purchased a BMW or Nissan then I would know today exactly when they will step in if the worst happens. With Tesla I'm left hoping my battery fails completely before the warranty runs out. As someone who believes in "Tesla as a concept, a brand, and a suite of products" how do you think it will "ultimately prevails and lasts" if they treat customers like this?

No your not left hoping. You are actively pursuing the behavior that put your Roadster battery in this shape. From your posts on the roadster site you are still range driving and trying to completely discharge your battery both things that the manual strongly discourages (not so for the model s with different batteries and pack). You are not left hoping you are actively ruining it. Like someone who did not do an oil change in an ICE car for 25000 miles continues behavior to get a new engine.

If you had purchased a Nissan you would not qualify for a replacement battery since you were at 19% and that warrantee kiks in above 30%. The warrantee does not promise a new battery only a replacement with one of at least 70% capacity

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

If you had purchased a Nissan you would not qualify for a replacement battery since you were at 19% and that warrantee kiks in above 30%. The warrantee does not promise a new battery only a replacement with one of at least 70% capacity

But that's exactly what I want as a customer... the knowledge that when the worst happens I will be ok... if I purchased a Nissan I would know that a 30% battery degradation would trigger a battery repair.

I don't think most Roadster owners expect a warranty to be applied retrospectively, but I do know that many Model S owners believe the "infinite mile warranty" covers battery degradation today.

 

[WarpedOne]

but I do know that many Model S owners believe the "infinite mile warranty" covers battery degradation today.

It does. It covers excessive battery degradation that normal usage cannot account for.
It does not cover degradation from you constantly driving the car to the max.

Try driving an ordinary ICE car on the racetrack and then demand warranty replacement because the engine overheated and failed.

You still haven't replied why you are not demanding brake pads replacement under warranty.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

You still haven't replied why you are not demanding brake pads replacement under warranty.

My Roadster brake pads were replaced under warranty... when I get a moment I'll look up the date.

- - - Updated - - -

Getting back OT I posed the following question on the Speak EV forum today;

"One thing I'd like to know is how many Model S owners purchased the car without knowing that battery degradation wasn't covered. The owners I know didn't realise this and I wonder if that will have an impact on sales as it gets better known in the future"

Here is a response from one Model S owner that confirms what we all know;

"Count me in on that one. I naively assumed the thermal control and advanced battery management would all but eliminate degradation, and didn't look into the fine print.

I just assumed, I'd be able to shift it for near 50% in 3 years time, especially with the remaining 5 years battery, and 1 years warranty.

I didn't go for Tesla's finance so I am worried about the future resales if battery degradation becomes a perceived problem"

 

[scaesare]

Absolutely nobody in this thread has ever argued that people don't understand that batteries degrade. In fact the crux of my argument depends on the assumption that the average consumer understands this.

Please re-read what I wrote. I explicitly stated, "Battery degradation among electric "devices" is rather common knowledge", and was speaking to Tesla not being misleading when ""degradation" issues ... aren't warrantied. "

Again just because other companies do a crummy job with informing consumers doesn't create an excuse for Tesla. Tesla should do a better job explaining this because it'll result in happier customers.

I already addressed this later in my post.

On the Prius pages I don't see anything about a warranty at all... I used Hyundai as an example because they are doing exactly what Tesla is doing, touting their warranty as a selling point.

My point about Toyota was that they also don't provide links to specifics.. .and refer to some warranty items as described in documents that aren't direct hyperlinks.

Touting a selling point for what it is (not what it isn't) is not particularly uncommon in the marketing portion of a site. That having been said, I agree with you that a link directly to the warranty, or other disclaimer would be a good move.... I'm just pointing out that the lack of a hyperlink or asterisk there doesn't make it misleading IMO.. no more so than the aforementioned "bumper to bumper" warranties.

Based on this sentence I'd say that Chevrolet is warrantying battery degredation:

Agreed, they are. My point was that you have to dig for their warranty specifics as well.

I'm not expecting Tesla to teach about battery degradation. Like I mentioned before I believe consumers are generally already aware of this. What I expect Tesla to do is to make their warranty information clear if they're going to tout the warranty so prominently.

Fair enough. I think it would be useful as well.

I'm simply trying to make the point that there's a difference between Tesla misleading people about their warranty coverage, as opposed to their providing extra clarity regarding that coverage.

To me, past action and intent mean something. The additional items that have been added to the warranty, and car upgrades that have been provided (both retroactively) that promote confidence and peace of mind for owners indicate a general willingness by Tesla to do the right thing.

I think that serves some benefit of the doubt in that they aren't attempting to be misleading... .and that there's such a thing as looking a gift horse in the mouth... if enough people gripe after giving them more, there's a tendency to stop. So, instead, I prefer proactively request additional positive change...

 

[Johan]

Here's something I noticed today relevant to this thread. Sorry if it's been posted before.

(Notice the wording "at beginning of life" after 60/85 kWh)

 

[yobigd20]

Yea that's weird wording I've not seen before.