Seems the Canadian configuration page still show the Standard range to be forthcoming. Not sure if that is the case or simply the Canadian webpage is not updated. Looking around at other countries, appears all of Europe doesn't even have a rear-wheel model available. However, the configurator in China not only has long-range rear wheel drive but it also states, "Standard endurance models will be available in the second half of 2019" (translated from Chinese to English by google).
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Tesla Removes Mention Of Standard Range Model 3 From Its Website. What's Going On?
- Thread starter Exscite
- Start date
Well they did pitch it at $35k before incentives.
Anyway, people are getting nervous now that Musk is saying it's $35k including incentives and the usual ridiculous "fuel savings".
You can tell how old that page is by the fact that they call it the "mid range" battery. No sign of the actual mid range version, or the new "standard range" re-branding.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Sure, and it still will be. No promises were ever made about what incentives, if any, would exist at time of sale (since the government can end or extend those at any time, both state and federal)
I agree citing fuel savings in the price is silly- but I don't think he's ever claimed they're NOT still going to produce the 35k car as soon as they can, nor that he ever claimed the current MR was in replacing it.
Yes, I mean it hasn't been updated for a long time, hence the use of the old name before the actual Mid Range model came out.
I mean, they actually did.
In post 48 on this thread cwerdna very clearly provides a screenshot where the release date of the "Standard Battery, $35,000 car" was said to be November 2017. At which point the full $7500 tax credit would still have been in play.
Just because Tesla and their fans want to play revisionist history with the promised SR car and when it was supposed to be here, because it conveniently fits the current narrative, does not change facts.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Nope, they actually didn't.
"we expect to reach this goal by this date" is not a promise in any legal sense.
Again, no, the release date was not promised to be November 2017.
What it ACTUALLY says is this:
Tesla said:
The ramp took longer than originally predicted. Therefore the release date of the SR is taking longer than originally predicted, since they're clearly telling you the 35k car will only arrived after production ramps
here in fact is a report from November 2017.
It mentions the original goal for the ramp at that point- 5k cars a week- was being pushed back to early 2018.
And as it turned out, Tesla still wasn't hitting 5k a week sustained early 2019
See here-
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
Where it shows that while they have had burst weeks of 5-6k, they hadn't managed sustained production over 5k as of January 2019... (though sustained had been over 4k solidly for a while).
Looking at most current data here-
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
We see they only got over 5k routinely in the last 2-3 weeks
So they've finally, now, reached their original 2017 goal.
Which means, having now ramped production, they should be finally be in a position to work on getting the 35k version released.
(and at least one person in this thread, who lives in the same place the gigafactory does, has claimed insider knowledge that such a battery pack is in the works/being produced in at least some amount- though I'm dubious about such claims without further evidence)
Who said anything about "in any legal sense"?
They put that info on their website. I have to think that at least a few people read that and, you know, took it to mean what it said.
They were still promising November 2017 availability as of October 2017 (per cwerdna above). I don't know about you, but I don't think it's the average person's responsibility to know that Tesla's product managers and accountants are galactically bad at forecasting.
I'm sure as you say they can trot out all kinds of excuses as per the ramp, such as not having an auto guy on staff who could tell them what a realistic production ramp looks like or how much you can actually automate an assembly line. Many of these excuses might hold up in court.
But if they had really NO IDEA when (or for that matter, IF) they were going to be able to offer a $35K Model 3, then they should not have mentioned it upon release. It's pretty simple.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Not sure what other sense you'd care about regarding a promise from a corporation?
They said they would "probably" reach target A by X date- and once they reach target A they'd soon after release the 35k car.
They didn't actually reach target A until basically 2 weeks ago... so you can't really call this a broken promise, since they only just reached the first condition for filling the promise.
You don't seem to be one of them though.
you think they promised "35k car November 2017"
They didn't though.
That's not what they actually said.
They made a conditional statement-- If A then B, and we think we will reach A by X.
Since they didn't reach A until 2 weeks ago being shocked you didn't get B by X doesn't make much sense.
No, they really were not.
They were hoping they'd get the ramp issue fixed by then, and THEN the 35k car would come soon after.
As noted, the ramp goal discussed then stuck around for well over another year.
Well, honestly if you don't know that you haven't been paying attention- but it doesn't change the fact you're taking a 2 part conditional statement and pretending it's a specific direct promise that it clearly isn't.
All of them would. But it continues ignoring the fact the failure of the ramp (the first part of the statement) is why the 35k car was delayed so long, and ignores the fact the Nov 2017 was when they thought the ramp issue would be fixed, and THEN the 35k car would follow.... and yet again- the ramp problem took over another year to actually get fixed and hit their 5k/week target.... something they just reached a couple of weeks ago
By all means you can be critical of Tesla for badly missing ramp deadlines and schedules... Tesla is simply awful at planning and logistics in a broad array of areas.... (including vehicle transport and delivery, spare parts, plus all the back-end MFG stuff).
But they never, ever, promised the 35k would come on a specific date, it was always "We hope to have it available in such-and-such timeframe IF/AFTER other stuff goes to plan" (which it repeatedly didn't)" and so acting like Tesla PROMISED anybody 35k with the full tax credit just isn't supported by the facts.
I know that. You know that. Most of the people here know that. I don't think all 400,000 presale reservationists are members on this forum AND fully aware of Tesla's penchant for missing deadlines.
They announced a $35K car three years ago, a product they have been unable to deliver to this point. If you really believe that Tesla's accountants were that bad at their job, then it makes some kind of sense.
We can argue all day long about the timing of the ramp and all the problems they had along the way. All your justifications are valid from Tesla's perspective. Some of the Day One reservationists may not be so forgiving. Everyone here brushes it off as "well how were they supposed to know" or "what's the big deal, it's coming eventually". But people have long memories. To this day, there are people who will not shop GM due to them ending the EV1 program over 20 years ago.
Will it kill the company? No. It's just my opinion, but how Tesla handled this was pretty crappy.
The main issue is that they’ve committed to reservation holders to produce the car. But, if there are development costs they want to avoid maybe they could substitute in a MR and take the loss. Not selling any more though is a good idea.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Honestly, no, most of them don't.
Wells Fargo literally defrauded their own customers with millions of fake accounts and millions in direct financial damage (fees on fake accounts) and indirect (credit score hits), for years... they paid some token fines and continue as the 3rd or 4th largest bank in the world.
Too removed from car people with "long" memories?
Volkswagen, for years, explicitly and intentionally defrauded millions of their customers with fake emissions results.... again they paid some fines (generally larger ones than Wells) and guess what happened in the 3 years after the major news of the scandal broke? They've been the highest selling car maker in the world.
That's not even getting into the car companies who were found to have run the math and found paying off dead families was cheaper than fixing known defects that killed their own customers. Again it didn't have much impact on sales.
We'd be here all day (week, month, and year) if we went over all the companies that did far more heinous stuff than come in late on a product delivery and continued to thrive because after a shockingly short time, nobody cared or remembered it happened.
It wasn't an accountant problem. It was a production problem. By the time they gave up on the original assembly line, production costs were high, the D was coming, and the SR went to the back of the line.
PS It wasn't GM ending the EV program that really angered people, it was selling the patents to an oil company, who effectively blocked the technology from use and development through onerous licensing terms.
Are those two companies under the same executive management as during the scandal?
How about Tesla? Already punished by the SEC once, perhaps now a second time.
The buck stops at Musk's desk, whether he's sitting behind it or sleeping underneath.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Not really sure how that's relevant to the actual point raised about "customers have long memories"?
But over at Wells the head of retail banking (the division that did all the fraud) had already retired a few months before the story broke in the news.
The CEO of Wells retired (he was in his 60s) a month or so after the story/fines happened....and was replaced by...the COO. WHOA MASSIVE TIDAL SHIFT THERE!
The board of directors didn't see any significant changes for a couple of years after the scandal broke.
Over at VW the CEO resigned...and was replaced with the CEO of...a VW subsidiary.... and similarly the Board of Directors post-scandal saw no significant changes for years....(ironically the chairman, in his late 70s, had previously left months before the scandal broke- for attempting, but failing, to get rid of the CEO)
But again doesn't seem relevant to the actual topic of customer memory...I'd bet the typical VW buyer couldn't name any of these execs- ditto the average Wells customer.
Not sure why you don't get it. It's a pretty simple concept.
The moves a company makes are due to the leadership at said company. Change the leadership and it's easier to forgive.
Musk is the one who goes out there and issues these promises and fails to deliver. The buck stops with him. The flufferbot, turnover, etc... all on his watch.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Like Elon, I often set challenging goals for myself and employees. As often as not I fall short of my goals, but the goals do their job. It forces me to concentrate my thoughts and efforts to attain them.
When I calculate that I am going to fall short I would just increase my efforts, or reset the amount or date of the goals. Again focus and effort would be concentrated for the new goal or date.
Not reaching my goals was never thought of as a failure. Often enough it was simply not understanding all the variables that occured on my way to the goal.
Elon almost failed with Space X. Initial rocket launches did not reach their goals of a successful launch, but he kept on launching and got his success at the last moment. Now that company is the premier launch solution for the world.
Elon again almost failed in his attempt to produce his electric car. Almost ran out of money, but was saved at the last moment by an investment from Mercedes.
And yet, still again, many sit at home and point to one goal or another that Elon has not reached. The elusive and hoped for $35,000 profitable base Model 3. He is almost there, and many still believe that he will make it, but other priorities have pushed the date further out than hoped.
Elon is ramping up production to achieve savings from volume and at the same time instituting cost savings in design and production. The production of the higher priced configurations is going a long way to making the $35,000 car a possibility.
Elon is still marching toward his goal. The Tax rebates are totally outside his control, but many can see a path to getting a Model 3 configuration for $35,000 and perhaps even below.
Throughout all this, Elon still is producing thousands of EV's every week. They are class leading vehicles that has caught the attention of the entire automotive community. His success is real.
When I calculate that I am going to fall short I would just increase my efforts, or reset the amount or date of the goals. Again focus and effort would be concentrated for the new goal or date.
Not reaching my goals was never thought of as a failure. Often enough it was simply not understanding all the variables that occured on my way to the goal.
Elon almost failed with Space X. Initial rocket launches did not reach their goals of a successful launch, but he kept on launching and got his success at the last moment. Now that company is the premier launch solution for the world.
Elon again almost failed in his attempt to produce his electric car. Almost ran out of money, but was saved at the last moment by an investment from Mercedes.
And yet, still again, many sit at home and point to one goal or another that Elon has not reached. The elusive and hoped for $35,000 profitable base Model 3. He is almost there, and many still believe that he will make it, but other priorities have pushed the date further out than hoped.
Elon is ramping up production to achieve savings from volume and at the same time instituting cost savings in design and production. The production of the higher priced configurations is going a long way to making the $35,000 car a possibility.
Elon is still marching toward his goal. The Tax rebates are totally outside his control, but many can see a path to getting a Model 3 configuration for $35,000 and perhaps even below.
Throughout all this, Elon still is producing thousands of EV's every week. They are class leading vehicles that has caught the attention of the entire automotive community. His success is real.
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