Tesla says "Gray area for the warranty" and says I drained it [12V covered under warranty - resolved]

[RGiezen]

5% a day is 30%, not 30km. let's say it's a model 3 RWD 60KWh, 30% is around 100-150km.

Cannot follow you. Its a model 3 performance. That lost 96 km in 5 days while parked.. The question is if that is normal and it is my fault or can I expect that this car can manage to be parked a week while having 96km batery capacity? If yes.. Then I will sell it tomorrow

 

[philly4]

So with this experience they would me to trust them and transport the car myself.

Transport does not equal drive. If it's not a warranty issue...you would be responsible for transporting (towing) if the car isn't drivable (unless you pay for mobile service etc.)

 

[RGiezen]

but as soon as you drain your HV battery to zero, Tesla doesn't cover the 12v battery under warranty. That's the way I read it.

Exactly. If I drain the HV battery to zero.. Then I would agree with the response. But since I only did not use the car for 5 days and there was 96km in the battery I think it is questionable if it was me who drained the battery. Is that normal then for a Tesla?

 

[E90alex]

According to Tesla sentry was on. I never used it and in my app it indicates off. Strange..

I thought it is safe to leave the car parked for 5 days with 96 KM charge 1/4th of a normal (80%) charge. When we wanted to re-charge it was too late. Do you also think this is normal?

The car is not yet a year old (Tesla model 3 performance) and only 15k kilometers

If you have the ability to charge in your garage then just leave it plugged in and you can set the charge limit lower like 50-70%. Letting it sit for long periods with too low or too high charge is not ideal.

It’s hard to say for now if there is a problem or just some settings/features you didn’t turn off. Sentry mode will use up a lot of battery. Smart summon standby will as well. If you have third party apps to monitor the car like Teslafi or if you alerted constantly checking the car status that would keep the car awake and drain more power. And if you have scheduled departure set up and didn’t turn off the car would still try to precondition everyday that you were gone. Or it could be family members opening doors etc to get things in and out of the car which would wake it up.

Or it could be you had a failing 12V battery to begin with and the car was constantly trying to charge it up with the HV battery causing it to deplete.

 

[RGiezen]

Did I miss where you confirmed that you dont use sentry mode, cabin overheat protection, and also have never (at any point) used ANY third party applicaton that can access your car?

I don't use and never used sentry mode and it is off in my app. But Tesla said that it is on? But then that is the only thing and I never used it..

 

[philly4]

The question is if that is normal and it is my fault or can I expect that this car can manage to be parked a week while having 96km batery capacity?

It depends...just like the 96km range may or may not be the range you actually can drive before running out.

If you let the car sleep (turn sentry mode, cabin overheat protection and don't wake up the car with the app/3rd party apps etc.) it will drain in the ballpark of <5% (about 25 km) if you have it parked for 5 days.

If you keep the car awake the entire time (sentry mode etc.) the drain for 5 days parked will be what you experienced.

 

[IdaX]

Cannot follow you. Its a model 3 performance. That lost 96 km in 5 days while parked.. The question is if that is normal and it is my fault or can I expect that this car can manage to be parked a week while having 96km batery capacity? If yes.. Then I will sell it tomorrow

The 12V battery died and sucked up more charge since it's dead. It's not normal behavior: it's the expected behavior when the 12V battery is no good. Replace it and you should be fine.

 

[RGiezen]

Maybe I missed it....where does the OP say Tesla told him to drive it?

Tesla did not say to drive it. Tesla tells that it is normal that the battery is empty after 5 days with no special features on and no cold weather etc. The car is less than a year and only 15k km. New and should have warranty. But I am now communicating with them for days and I still have no service. The ask me to transport the car and see for myself.

 

[RGiezen]

"So with this experience they would me to trust them and transport the car myself. " was in OP's first post. Perhaps I misinterpreted. Doing my best autocorrect replaced this 'would' with 'told'.

Transport with a transport company to transport the car. Not drive

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I don't use and never used sentry mode and it is off in my app. But Tesla said that it is on? But then that is the only thing and I never used it..

Trying again to help be completely clear:
1) Do you use or have you ever used Sentry Mode?
2) Do you use or have you ever used Cabin Overheat Protection?
3) Do you use or have you ever used any third-party application that can access your car?
4) Do you have or have you ever had any third-party hardware device plugged into your car?

 

[RGiezen]

The 12V battery died and sucked up more charge since it's dead. It's not normal behavior: it's the expected behavior when the 12V battery is no good. Replace it and you should be fine.

I agree that it is likely the problem of the 12V battery. But the car is brand new and I expect Tesla to support that without discussions. This is not about the cost. It is probably low. But they have the experience and how easy is it to send someone. But instead I am left over to solve it myself.

 

[RGiezen]

Trying again to help be completely clear:
1) Do you use or have you ever used Sentry Mode?
2) Do you use or have you ever used Cabin Overheat Protection?
3) Do you use or have you ever used any third-party application that can access your car?
4) Do you have or have you ever had any third-party hardware device plugged into your car?

1) Do you use or have you ever used Sentry Mode? NO (but Telsa tell me that I did..)
2) Do you use or have you ever used Cabin Overheat Protection? NO
3) Do you use or have you ever used any third-party application that can access your car? NO
4) Do you have or have you ever had any third-party hardware device plugged into your car? NO

 

[philly4]

1) Do you use or have you ever used Sentry Mode? NO (but Telsa tell me that I did..)
2) Do you use or have you ever used Cabin Overheat Protection? NO
3) Do you use or have you ever used any third-party application that can access your car? NO
4) Do you have or have you ever had any third-party hardware device plugged into your car? NO

How were you notified about the car being so low on charge? Were you checking in on the car with your phone app? Does anyone else have phone app connectivity with your car?

 

[RGiezen]

How were you notified about the car being so low on charge? Were you checking in on the car with your phone app? Does anyone else have phone app connectivity with your car?

I was not notified. The car is parked in an underground garage with less connectivity. I opened the tesla app on 15th and discovered it was zero. Because I could not believe it, I asked my son to check, see attached photo on original post.

 

[KenC]

Well, strange behavior. Definitely not normal. Under 20% SOC, Sentry shouldn't be on. The rate of drain should slow. While I see discussion of Sentry and COP, how about Smart Summon? Did you turn Smart Summon off, if you have that feature? That's also a mileage drain.

What version of software are you on? I'd consider doing a full reboot, to cycle the electronics, since it seems to be not functioning correctly. And, your service center is not helpful. Anecdotally, the comments I read about the Dutch service center generally seems to be not very helpful. Why? Dunno.

 

[wwu123]

Hope OP's situation is resolved by now.

My mother's Model 3 had a similar situation just a few months ago. My elderly parents don't drive much, so car is sitting garaged for 5-7 days at a time unplugged, and charged every few weeks, when it reaches 20%, to about 80%. Don't use any touchscreen features of the car, except HVAC heating/cooling and occasional GPS routing - but not Cabin Overheat Protection (even living in Vegas), no radio/streaming, no apps.

Most of the time, phantom drain is low, <1% per day - they were stranded overseas for 5 weeks when COVID started, car barely lost 10% that whole time. But both on their car and our Model 3 and S, the loggers show that the cars can enter a period of days or weeks of higher phantom drain, where the car won't sleep (or more accurately sleep and wake up right away). Through the data logger and actual events, this is the timeline:
-On 12/30, they receive the major update 2021.44.25 (logged),. Around the same time, the car popped up the 12v battery warning. One could've been before or after, they only notice both on their next drive days later.
-On 1/7 6pm, several days after their last drive, the car suddenly enters a period where it won't sleep, and excessive phantom drain (and presumed 12v cycling) instead of 0.1-0.3 kwh/day to 3-5 kwh/day. But this is unnoticed.
-On 1/10, they do a few short drives, charge the car to 80% SOC. High phantom drain continues
-On 1/15, logger shows the drain drops from 3-5 kwh/day to 1 kwh/day for a few days, before climbing back up a few days later. Car is not sleeping well the whole time.
-On 1/20, logger drops out due to API token refresh, car is at 43% SOC. They do a 3 mi drive the next day that is unlogged but car arrives home at 120mi range. They debate whether to charge but decide not to, expecting low phantom drain. Tesla will have the logs from 1/20 to 1/30, but we don't.
-On 1/30, the Tesla apps notifies us that the HV battery is at 0% SOC (so 4% range loss per day). They plug in the car and charge to 80%. Excessive phantom drain continues, by now I've noticed.
-On 2/28, excessive phantom drain abruptly stops, drops down to 0.3kwh/day. No firmware updates since 12/30. Unknown if MCU rebooted, since logger doesn't capture that.
-On 3/2, they decide to proactively replace the 12v battery at Tesla Service Center. It's covered under warranty.
-On 3/21, next firmware update to 2022.4.5.

My observations from this forum and having data loggers on three Tesla vehicles, is that there are a number of situations that can cause excessive phantom drain:
1) a bad recent firmware update can cause the car to not sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain
2) an OK recent firmware update, without a full manual power cycle of the MCU, can randomly cause the car to not sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain - sometimes resolved by car eventually rebooting itself
3) no firmware update, but just a badly written app, can randomly cause memory leaks (computer, not physical), causing the car to not sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling and subsequent HV battery drain
4) a bad or dying 12v battery can cause the car to not sleep well or other wonky behavior, reinforce excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain
5) owner use of certain car features while parked can cause the car both to not sleep but also use more 12v battery, causing excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain. Most of these features will de-activate below 20% HV SOC or so, to protect the 12v and HV batteries - I think at this stage of firmware maturity, Tesla tries to protect owners from themselves and it's very hard to quickly drain the HV battery while just parked.
6) misbehaving data loggers can prevent car from sleeping (probably not a factor in our case, since same logger for four years), causing car not to sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain

So did the firmware update cause the 12v battery cycling, causing it to go bad? or was a bad 12v battery the root cause to begin with, which can cause unexpected firmware and app behavior (there's even a separate pop-up warning for this)? Or was it just a coincident memory leak that started and stopped outside of the other events? Who the heck knows...

My conclusion is that yes, there are 1-2 behaviors an owner could do that could cause excessive drain, but there are also many things with the car itself that could cause it as well.

OP response seems to have ruled out the most likely owner behaviors...but my advice is that trying to win the argument with Tesla SC and leaving the car for days at 0% SOC in the cold may not be good for battery degradation long-term. Either pony up for the 12v battery (which may not even be the root problem) and do it yourself, and be done. Or have Tesla Roadside Assistance tow the car to the SC - per policy they will assist but you may have to pay (but once they start diagnosing the car logs, they may pull up one of the other root causes, so both the 12v and the tow may then be covered under warranty).

 

[show_stoppa]

Hope OP's situation is resolved by now.

My mother's Model 3 had a similar situation just a few months ago. My elderly parents don't drive much, so car is sitting garaged for 5-7 days at a time unplugged, and charged every few weeks, when it reaches 20%, to about 80%. Don't use any touchscreen features of the car, except HVAC heating/cooling and occasional GPS routing - but not Cabin Overheat Protection (even living in Vegas), no radio/streaming, no apps.

Most of the time, phantom drain is low, <1% per day - they were stranded overseas for 5 weeks when COVID started, car barely lost 10% that whole time. But both on their car and our Model 3 and S, the loggers show that the cars can enter a period of days or weeks of higher phantom drain, where the car won't sleep (or more accurately sleep and wake up right away). Through the data logger and actual events, this is the timeline:
-On 12/30, they receive the major update 2021.44.25 (logged),. Around the same time, the car popped up the 12v battery warning. One could've been before or after, they only notice both on their next drive days later.
-On 1/7 6pm, several days after their last drive, the car suddenly enters a period where it won't sleep, and excessive phantom drain (and presumed 12v cycling) instead of 0.1-0.3 kwh/day to 3-5 kwh/day. But this is unnoticed.
-On 1/10, they do a few short drives, charge the car to 80% SOC. High phantom drain continues
-On 1/15, logger shows the drain drops from 3-5 kwh/day to 1 kwh/day for a few days, before climbing back up a few days later. Car is not sleeping well the whole time.
-On 1/20, logger drops out due to API token refresh, car is at 43% SOC. They do a 3 mi drive the next day that is unlogged but car arrives home at 120mi range. They debate whether to charge but decide not to, expecting low phantom drain. Tesla will have the logs from 1/20 to 1/30, but we don't.
-On 1/30, the Tesla apps notifies us that the HV battery is at 0% SOC (so 4% range loss per day). They plug in the car and charge to 80%. Excessive phantom drain continues, by now I've noticed.
-On 2/28, excessive phantom drain abruptly stops, drops down to 0.3kwh/day. No firmware updates since 12/30. Unknown if MCU rebooted, since logger doesn't capture that.
-On 3/2, they decide to proactively replace the 12v battery at Tesla Service Center. It's covered under warranty.
-On 3/21, next firmware update to 2022.4.5.

My observations from this forum and having data loggers on three Tesla vehicles, is that there are a number of situations that can cause excessive phantom drain:
1) a bad recent firmware update can cause the car to not sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain
2) an OK recent firmware update, without a full manual power cycle of the MCU, can randomly cause the car to not sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain - sometimes resolved by car eventually rebooting itself
3) no firmware update, but just a badly written app, can randomly cause memory leaks (computer, not physical), causing the car to not sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling and subsequent HV battery drain
4) a bad or dying 12v battery can cause the car to not sleep well or other wonky behavior, reinforce excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain
5) owner use of certain car features while parked can cause the car both to not sleep but also use more 12v battery, causing excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain. Most of these features will de-activate below 20% HV SOC or so, to protect the 12v and HV batteries - I think at this stage of firmware maturity, Tesla tries to protect owners from themselves and it's very hard to quickly drain the HV battery while just parked.
6) misbehaving data loggers can prevent car from sleeping (probably not a factor in our case, since same logger for four years), causing car not to sleep well, causing phantom drain, excessive 12v cycling, and subsequent HV battery drain

So did the firmware update cause the 12v battery cycling, causing it to go bad? or was a bad 12v battery the root cause to begin with, which can cause unexpected firmware and app behavior (there's even a separate pop-up warning for this)? Or was it just a coincident memory leak that started and stopped outside of the other events? Who the heck knows...

My conclusion is that yes, there are 1-2 behaviors an owner could do that could cause excessive drain, but there are also many things with the car itself that could cause it as well.

OP response seems to have ruled out the most likely owner behaviors...but my advice is that trying to win the argument with Tesla SC and leaving the car for days at 0% SOC in the cold may not be good for battery degradation long-term. Either pony up for the 12v battery (which may not even be the root problem) and do it yourself, and be done. Or have Tesla Roadside Assistance tow the car to the SC - per policy they will assist but you may have to pay (but once they start diagnosing the car logs, they may pull up one of the other root causes, so both the 12v and the tow may then be covered under warranty).

I feel like I just 'read' an entire episode of Air Crash Investigation (actually Tesla Battery Crash Investigation)

But on a serious note. Great breakdown of things.

 

[RGiezen]

Well, strange behavior. Definitely not normal. Under 20% SOC, Sentry shouldn't be on. The rate of drain should slow. While I see discussion of Sentry and COP, how about Smart Summon? Did you turn Smart Summon off, if you have that feature? That's also a mileage drain.

What version of software are you on? I'd consider doing a full reboot, to cycle the electronics, since it seems to be not functioning correctly. And, your service center is not helpful. Anecdotally, the comments I read about the Dutch service center generally seems to be not very helpful. Why? Dunno.

Also dont understand why there is poor support. I read on their site something like customer first.. If Tesla want to beat German cars it has to look how they support their clients. And does not matter what a model 3 or the most expensive one. If they believe in the quality they should say. We will pickup the car sir, apologies. that this happened.. I now still cannot drive and cannot even enter the car...

 

[E90alex]

Also dont understand why there is poor support. I read on their site something like customer first.. If Tesla want to beat German cars it has to look how they support their clients. And does not matter what a model 3 or the most expensive one. If they believe in the quality they should say. We will pickup the car sir, apologies. that this happened.. I now still cannot drive and cannot even enter the car...

Tesla has always had poor after sales support and service ever since the explosion in popularity of the 3 and Y. They’re selling more cars than they can support and they don’t seem to care as long as sales numbers are high to please the shareholders and keep stock price high.

 

[RGiezen]

The 12V battery died and sucked up more charge since it's dead. It's not normal behavior: it's the expected behavior when the 12V battery is no good. Replace it and you should be fine.

Agree that I can replace it, but then maybe the warranty will be impacted. Its a new car.