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I don't think that IS true.

In fact, UAW specifically denied that claim back when the whole thing came up and someone claimed such a rule existed without evidence.







FWIW there's much to dislike about the UAW. But this isn't one of those things.

No. That was a disinformation campaign. That's why a google search for UAW stock options (that omits the terms elon musk tesla) has exactly ZERO search results.

Easy to prove this wrong. Post a link to any source showing where a UAW autoworker is receiving stock options as part of their compensation.

I'll wait.
 
Tesla has no insurance underwriting operations right now. They are simply brokering insurance policies to an underwriter sub. In California at least, Markel Insurance Company has done the underwriting for all of the policies.

Something must have changed since then. I got Tesla Insurance in California about 3 months back, and it is underwritten by State National Insurance Company (headquartered in TX).
 
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Today I sent the following email to the White House and the three people who represent me in Congress. You may want to express your opinion to those who represent you.

Please strike out the unionization requirement in the bill that includes an income tax credit or rebate to consumers who buy electric vehicles. Workers can always vote whether to unionize. Companies have no say. Neither do their customers. The government should not require workers to unionize for their company’s customers to receive tax benefits. A bill designed to encourage the manufacturing and purchasing of EVs should not also be a bill designed to encourage workers to unionize. Those are entirely separate matters. The best companies are those that treat their employees so well that they choose not to unionize.
Thank you, Curt! I submitted my opinion as well. Also, thanks to @Discoducky for making it easy to find the relevant politicians.
 
No. That was a disinformation campaign. That's why a google search for UAW stock options (that omits the terms elon musk tesla) has exactly ZERO search results.

Easy to prove this wrong. Post a link to any source showing where a UAW autoworker is receiving stock options as part of their compensation.

I'll wait.


You have it backward.

YOU claimed there was a UAW rule/policy.

You said:
it is UAW policy that none of their workers are permitted to receive stock options by Union policy


It's up to YOU to post evidence that policy exists.

You can't, because it doesn't.

I even cited a spokesperson for the union saying your claim is not true


Simply hand-waiving this as "Well, no UAW workers are getting options" doesn't support your claim there's any policy or rule that says they CAN'T get them at all

I don't own a buffalo. That doesn't mean my employer has a "policy" saying I can't have one.


UAW workers don't get options today mainly because they don't ask for them. They ask for higher base wages instead. That has more value than options in their opinion. There's nothing that doesn't "allow" them to get them if they wished to negotiate for them though,


UAW workers are likely to ask for their own slice of GM's profitability in the form of wage increases, experts say, not the stock options favored in Silicon Valle
 
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You have it backward.

YOU claimed there was a UAW rule/policy.

It's up to YOU to post evidence that policy exists.

You can't, because it doesn't.

I even cited a spokesperson for the union saying your claim is not true


Simply hand-waiving this as "Well, no UAW workers are getting options" doesn't support your claim there's any policy or rule that says they CAN'T get them at all

I don't own a buffalo. That doesn't mean my employer has a "policy" saying I can't have one.
You are correct For you owning no Buffalo. But That doesn’t say anything about all employees. The thing is, stock compensation is work related, in contrast to keeping buffalos. Stock compensation is not uncommon.

For a union stock compensation is problematic in that it aligns the interests of the company with the interest of the workers. So, a strike will not last very long, i.e. The union has less power. Even if there is no written rule: While stock options could benefit the workers, the unions while representing them will not propose it because it is bad for themselves.
I agree with most of what Curt wrote, but there are bad companies that put pressure on employees not to form a union, where they could use one. The ideal he mentions is not the standard for companies without a union.
in Europe it is hard to fire someone AND there is a financial safety net in case of unemployment. In the US it Is the opposite. I think that one should suffice. Universal basic income (as advocated by Musk), would go a long way solving that.
 
You have it backward.

YOU claimed there was a UAW rule/policy.




It's up to YOU to post evidence that policy exists.

You can't, because it doesn't.

I even cited a spokesperson for the union saying your claim is not true


Simply hand-waiving this as "Well, no UAW workers are getting options" doesn't support your claim there's any policy or rule that says they CAN'T get them at all

I don't own a buffalo. That doesn't mean my employer has a "policy" saying I can't have one.


UAW workers don't get options today mainly because they don't ask for them. They ask for higher base wages instead. That has more value than options in their opinion. There's nothing that doesn't "allow" them to get them if they wished to negotiate for them though,


De Factoly...

UAW workers are not getting stock options.

What's the purpose of making it a policy? Other than to draw negative attention that the fief lords are not looking after the vassals?

Ownership in a company by definition creates conflict with those who organize AGAINST the company.

Are you in a union or something? I expect less cognitive dissonance from a person of your seniority here.
 
You are correct For you owning no Buffalo. But That doesn’t say anything about all employees. The thing is, stock compensation is work related, in contrast to keeping buffalos. Stock compensation is not uncommon.

It's not uncommon at tech companies for rank and file.

It's pretty uncommon in legacy US auto companies.

See my earlier link which mentions UAW tends to want, and negotiate for, higher base pay rather than stock options.

But there's no policy saying they can't GET options as Artful Dodger claimed was true (but is not). They simply don't think they're as valuable to ask for as cash money.

(and I think, for example, UAW workers who got higher pay but no stock options at GM and Chrysler, leading into the bankruptcy of both, would say the UAW was correct to pick cash over stock)




I agree with most of what Curt wrote, but there are bad companies that put pressure on employees not to form a union, where they could use one. The ideal he mentions is not the standard for companies without a union.
and should be much stronger in the US. In eEurope it is hard to fire someone AND a financial safety net in case of unemployment. In the US it Is the opposite. I think that one should suffice. Universal basic income (as advocated by Musk), would go a long way solving that.


Agreed.

While there's been plenty of bad from unions in more recent times (and UAW has been especially bad here), historically they've vastly improved safety, compensation, and overall working conditions in the US.

As you seem to, I'd also rather see broad worker protections in law that apply to everyone- rather than carve outs only in places where EITHER there's a still-strong union to negotiate them, or there's a decent enough management that willingly provides them. Because there's still plenty of workplaces that have neither.


The government created laws that allow workers to unionize without company interference. But the idea of requiring workers to unionize in order for their company's customers to receive full tax benefits seems bizarre.

Any lawyer's here? How might the courts react to such a requirement?

They would likely review it under the lowest standard of judicial scrutiny (rational basis), so it'd be pretty easy for the government to get over that very low bar.

To pass the rational basis test, the statute or ordinance must have a legitimate state interest, and there must be a rational connection between the statute's/ordinance's means and goals.

That's it. So they explain to the court there's a legitimate state interest in supporting collective bargaining, and there's obviously a connection between the credit and those companies. Done. The courts tend to be VERY deferential to the government on this kind of stuff, especially regarding taxation.

Again there's a TON of stuff in tax law that treats folks differently in support of various public policy agendas (legitimate state interest)

Married and single people are taxed differently.

Homeowners and renters are taxed differently.

Parents and the childless are taxed differently.

Hell people who buy EVs vs ICE are taxed differently.

There's slews of tax cut-outs and special rates for companies that do one thing versus a company that does another.

Nothing different here.


As I mention to Kanweg I think there's better ways to achieve what this seems to be trying to do- but I don't think it'd have much issue surviving a legal challenge.



De Factoly...

UAW workers are not getting stock options.

What's the purpose of making it a policy?

No idea, but AD claims it is one.

It's not, but they keep disageeing and insisting it is.

I'm not in a union, I just prefer folks not make up imaginary rules they claim are true and then can't support the claim when someone points out it's not true and indeed the organization itself has stated is not true.
 
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(and I think, for example, UAW workers who got higher pay but no stock options at GM and Chrysler, leading into the bankruptcy of both, would say the UAW was correct to pick cash over stock)

Funny enough, the unions bankrupted GM and Chrysler. Can't adjust to market conditions if entrapped by thugs.

For the short term and especially the union bosses, cash in hand is better.

Companies under union stronghold don't have to thrive, just sustain enough to print checks.

We can't let Tesla face the same fate.
 
Lo, SP anti-gravity

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The government created laws that allow workers to unionize without company interference. But the idea of the government requiring workers to unionize in order for their company's customers to receive a full tax benefit seems bizarre.

Any lawyer's here? How might the courts react to such a requirement?
It’ll get challenged in court by not only Tesla but states like Texas.....and the union stipulation will be struck down very quickly. Which is why I don’t think any political or the Biden campaign will keep any wording of requiring union. It would hold up the entire infrastructure bill in courts for a long time