Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[dm28997]

True: $1,190.98 @ 09:47 ET

View attachment 735977

From Oil Change International

"Internationally, governments provide at least $775 billion to $1 trillion annually in subsidies, not including other costs of fossil fuels related to climate change, environmental impacts, military conflicts and spending, and health impacts.​

​

"This figure varies each year based on oil prices, but it is consistently in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Greater transparency in reporting would allow for more precise figures.​

​

"When externalities are included, as in a 2015 study by the International Monetary Fund, the unpaid costs of fossil fuels are upward of $5.3 trillion annually - which works out to a staggering $10 million per minute.​

​

"As of October 2017, Oil Change International estimates United States fossil fuel exploration and production subsidies at $20.5 billion annually.​

​

"Other credible estimates of annual United States fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually - yet none of these include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry."​

Cheers!

Thanks for posting. For decades now fossil fuel interests have become entrenched in governments and media creating anger and hate. As the culprits become exposed more disillusioned voters will step up to sweep out the garbage and leeches who not only take tax payers money but attempt to stall progress at every turn.
Things are actually looking good and I have to really thank Tesla and investors and owners along with the smart young adults like Greta Thunberg for cutting though the Wall of deceit that like the Berlin wall is crumbling.
I am so proud of Tesla that does the action making America more of a loving country. My Tesla's are made with love and that is the greatest power there is.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Woot, der it is... Intraday High now over $1,200 / chair

Cheers to the Longs!

 

[StealthP3D]

To provide an example of just how efficient Tesla is getting with both manufacturing and logistics, our brand new Y was manufactured 10 days prior to it arriving to our service center halfway across the country. Impressive for sure.

Yeah but if Tesla valued you as a customer, they would make your car months in advance, anticipating what you and others might want a few months down the road, and park them all on big lots all around the country with 10's of thousands of other cars so when you were ready to buy you could just walk around and pick out whichever one you wanted. You know, like all the respectable car makers do. And if they guessed wrong and the cars built up faster than they left the lots, they could offer you an incentive or two to take home the one they wanted you to have. Maybe you would get a 0% interest rate or $500 cash back. If you thought you still weren't getting enough for your money, you could offer them $3K or $4K less. If the sales manager realized you deserved a better value he might knock off half that amount. But if you were persistent enough, he might give you the full discount you were requesting. Tesla will never respect the customer like that!

/s

 

[Krugerrand]

This term triggers me. Can we call it a truncated week instead?

But what about the feelings of all the ??

 

[15Peter20]

It is not popular to promote such views, but I agree. The aviation examples are well known: More than half the Learjet 23 fleet crashed in it's first few months. That actually was the largest factor behind aircraft type ratings. The (in)famous Cessna 411 was so deficient in controllability with an engine out and so prone to engine failure that it was soon 'transmogrified' to the enormously popular and safe Cessna 414.

The car cases most popularized might have been the Chevrolet Corvair and it's swing axle, copied from the VW. The VW was not terribly stable either, but did not attract quite the notoriety of the Corvair, partly because of the Monza version that was vastly overpowered and great fun top the very competent but deadly to others.

Without belaboring the many other cases we do have numerous innovations and control differences between Tesla and all others. The Model S yoke and shifting are cases in point that attract lively different views among us, mostly Tesla enthusiasts as we are. That ignores all the updates, FSD/autopilot issues and the entire screen-based and/or voice activated features. These attract 'reliability' rating penalties when they really are training issues.

Imagine >100,000 Hertz and other rental floating around.

People will disagree, but there is an acute need for training to enable most normally competent drivers to use a Tesla, any Tesla, beyond the simplest maneuvers.

Just imagine the typical parking lot attendant safely handing a Plaid!

FWIW, I used to teach polite for their Airline Pilot License in a Learjet. They paid a big premium for that because getting the same rating in the more commonly uses Cessna Citation (deservedly dubbed 'near jet') did not impress airline employers. Before I would allow one of those aspirants anywhere close to the Lear I made them take an aerobatic course in a 'taildragger' so they'd learn basic 'stick and rudder' skills. To this day one crucial difference between airline pilots that service crises and those that do not is basic piloting skills.

The Tesla Performance versions, specially my beloved Plaid, should not be driven by either novices or imprudent people. People die who are not fit for the machine. I firmly believe that Tesla should make some basic training a part of Performance Model sales. That should include strong cautions about allowing non-training people to have access to those vehicles.

FWIW, I personally know about two recent fatal crashes, one Model S Plaid (less than two hours after pickup of the car) and one Model 3 having a 3AM 'demonstration of speed' on a city street, 30mph speed limit, a few blocks away from my residence. Not all fo these accidents will be eliminated by training, but many will be.

No, sorry, but "Teslas alone of all EVs need special training to avoid dying" will be manna from FUD heaven.

Sports bikes are as quick as a Plaid, with greater power-to-weight etc and people manage to survive (most bike accidents are due to third parties' incompetence). I managed to survive owning a 200hp, 200kg bike and never once came close to being out of control due to the excess power/torque, what have you.

The second example you cite above has no relevance.

Now, a free track day experience offered when buying Plaid or P would be a good idea.

 

[82bert]

Yeah but if Tesla valued you as a customer, they would make your car months in advance, anticipating what you and others might want a few months down the road, and park them all on big lots all around the country with 10's of thousands of other cars so when you were ready to buy you could just walk around and pick out whichever one you wanted. You know, like all the respectable car makers do. And if they guessed wrong and the cars built up faster than they left the lots, they could offer you an incentive or two to take home the one they wanted you to have. Maybe you would get a 0% interest rate or $500 cash back. If you thought you still weren't getting enough for your money, you could offer them $3K or $4K less. If the sales manager realized you deserved a better value he might knock off half that amount. But if you were persistent enough, he might give you the full discount you were requesting. Tesla will never respect the customer like that!

/s

I do not miss those days. Fortunately, I’m young enough that we only did it twice.

 

[Krugerrand]

I'm surprised there has been no discussion about the intro of Plaid into China. Did I miss something? I assume the 520 mi. range is WLTP. Anyone know?
TIA

Go ahead, start the discussion.

I imagine the range will be listed in the same format as the range is listed for every other Tesla in China.

 

[Krugerrand]

It is not popular to promote such views, but I agree. The aviation examples are well known: More than half the Learjet 23 fleet crashed in it's first few months. That actually was the largest factor behind aircraft type ratings. The (in)famous Cessna 411 was so deficient in controllability with an engine out and so prone to engine failure that it was soon 'transmogrified' to the enormously popular and safe Cessna 414.

The car cases most popularized might have been the Chevrolet Corvair and it's swing axle, copied from the VW. The VW was not terribly stable either, but did not attract quite the notoriety of the Corvair, partly because of the Monza version that was vastly overpowered and great fun top the very competent but deadly to others.

Without belaboring the many other cases we do have numerous innovations and control differences between Tesla and all others. The Model S yoke and shifting are cases in point that attract lively different views among us, mostly Tesla enthusiasts as we are. That ignores all the updates, FSD/autopilot issues and the entire screen-based and/or voice activated features. These attract 'reliability' rating penalties when they really are training issues.

Imagine >100,000 Hertz and other rental floating around.

People will disagree, but there is an acute need for training to enable most normally competent drivers to use a Tesla, any Tesla, beyond the simplest maneuvers.

Just imagine the typical parking lot attendant safely handing a Plaid!

FWIW, I used to teach polite for their Airline Pilot License in a Learjet. They paid a big premium for that because getting the same rating in the more commonly uses Cessna Citation (deservedly dubbed 'near jet') did not impress airline employers. Before I would allow one of those aspirants anywhere close to the Lear I made them take an aerobatic course in a 'taildragger' so they'd learn basic 'stick and rudder' skills. To this day one crucial difference between airline pilots that service crises and those that do not is basic piloting skills.

The Tesla Performance versions, specially my beloved Plaid, should not be driven by either novices or imprudent people. People die who are not fit for the machine. I firmly believe that Tesla should make some basic training a part of Performance Model sales. That should include strong cautions about allowing non-training people to have access to those vehicles.

FWIW, I personally know about two recent fatal crashes, one Model S Plaid (less than two hours after pickup of the car) and one Model 3 having a 3AM 'demonstration of speed' on a city street, 30mph speed limit, a few blocks away from my residence. Not all fo these accidents will be eliminated by training, but many will be.

People need to be told in a toaster instruction manual not to operate it in a bathtub.

I’m so over the nanny and ‘hold my hand’ state of things. We all have to pass a driver’s test (two actually - written and manual) to get legal permission to drive.

Smart people take additional accredited instruction to learn defensive driving and safety maneuvers. Smart people also pay attention when they drive and respect the fact it’s a privilege not a right to drive, and that people can get hurt and die.

As time goes on, driver’s courses will include additional information related specifically to driving an EV/Tesla if it seems warranted.

Thinking back to when I was learning to drive, it was a 50/50 split of people learning on a stick vs automatic, I don’t recall anything specifically different in the testing of either type of transmission. You still had to know the rules of the road and perform certain skills and maneuvers regardless what you were driving. Don’t see how that should change simply because it’s an EV.

 

[WattsHappening]

TGIFM.

 

[thesmokingman]

There it is... the Rivian honeymoon has taken a fiver.

 

[elasalle]

Was hoping for something more concrete than just this for GF Berlin...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1462808770711543817

 

[2daMoon]

WTH? At this rate we are gonna have to wait until tomorrow for the next ATH Close.

Such a disappointing stonk.

Too much trouble to list it on Craigslist. Guess I'll just HODL.

/s

 

[Nocturnal]

I don’t think Tesla will ever purposely price out others; it’s just going to happen organically like it is now.

I predict the government/s is/are/will lose their power to dictate any such nonsense down the road. I actually think that Tesla/Elon will address *this* down the road. Not sure how, but it falls under the categories of ‘safety first’ and ‘do the right thing’.

It’s interesting that for such a forward looking crowd, we’ve still got a lot of people thinking by analogy and 1960 standards.

Yes, I agree. To be clear I don't think it will be an intentional act like you might see with a Walmart artificially lowering prices to drive a competitor out of business. It will just be Tesla pulling levers to optimize their order books. (and of course doing it purposefully risks running afoul of regulators)

 

[jbcarioca]

No, sorry, but "Teslas alone of all EVs need special training to avoid dying" will be manna from FUD heaven.

Sports bikes are as quick as a Plaid, with greater power-to-weight etc and people manage to survive (most bike accidents are due to third parties' incompetence). I managed to survive owning a 200hp, 200kg bike and never once came close to being out of control due to the excess power/torque, what have you.

The second example you cite above has no relevance.

Now, a free track day experience offered when buying Plaid or P would be a good idea.

!. I did not say "Teslas alone" I did specify Performance. Not manna for FUD. That would be a distinctive feature that could alleviate some fo the FUD now happening, in particular with the idiot drivers. The training reduces risk.
2. The second example has relevance in that high performance and/or unusual features do benefit from training. Arguing otherwise does not make it true.
3. In offering track days, multiple day training sessions and ancillary activities through Porsche Club of America, for example, Porsche does not require but encourages greater proficiency. Were Tesla to do something similar that would be very positive. I do recall obtaining an insurance rate reduction for doing just that when I bought a 964 long ago. Similarly I earlier received a rate discount for a decades worth of high performance vehicles with zero claims (that one was not in the US).
4. I freely admit that specific mandatory training is a non-starter in the US, for the same reason that foolish people have managed to outlaw mandatory motorcycle helmets, vaccine mandates and other public safety measures. This topic invariably draws opposition on a political basis.

I promote some version of that idea for the same reason that I took some professional instruction before operating a wide variety of high performance vehicles, in my case airplanes, rotorcraft, boats, cars and motorcycles. I almost always favor higher training standards because they end out increasing the enjoyment of said vehicles while reducing risks. In my opinion the more one understands the products one uses the better the total experience and the lower the risk.

At the very least, better training will lower insurance costs.

 

[DragonWatch]

Forward Observing

Wedbush says Apple will build car; only real question is when.

First, when they start ~ welcome to the electronic/technology car era.

Sounds like they might finally be catching that iWind again.

FYI ~ I only have 118 shares.

Cheers

PS ~ GM should stick to producing tanks and military HMMWVs. And, as has been suggested stop production of fossil fuel cars and make a third attempt to build low income EVs. Third time is the charm.

 

[ThisStockGood]

Elon selling..? Seems so...

 

[woodisgood]

Elon selling..? Seems so...

Related sectors were all in quite a slide before TSLA was dropping. We held up quite well for some time.

 

[15Peter20]

!. I did not say "Teslas alone" I did specify Performance. Not manna for FUD. That would be a distinctive feature that could alleviate some fo the FUD now happening, in particular with the idiot drivers. The training reduces risk.
2. The second example has relevance in that high performance and/or unusual features do benefit from training. Arguing otherwise does not make it true.
3. In offering track days, multiple day training sessions and ancillary activities through Porsche Club of America, for example, Porsche does not require but encourages greater proficiency. Were Tesla to do something similar that would be very positive. I do recall obtaining an insurance rate reduction for doing just that when I bought a 964 long ago. Similarly I earlier received a rate discount for a decades worth of high performance vehicles with zero claims (that one was not in the US).
4. I freely admit that specific mandatory training is a non-starter in the US, for the same reason that foolish people have managed to outlaw mandatory motorcycle helmets, vaccine mandates and other public safety measures. This topic invariably draws opposition on a political basis.

I promote some version of that idea for the same reason that I took some professional instruction before operating a wide variety of high performance vehicles, in my case airplanes, rotorcraft, boats, cars and motorcycles. I almost always favor higher training standards because they end out increasing the enjoyment of said vehicles while reducing risks. In my opinion the more one understands the products one uses the better the total experience and the lower the risk.

At the very least, better training will lower insurance costs.

We have something like this in the UK. Certain accreditations will lower insurance costs, and that's fine. Let the market sort it out.

 

[Mengy]

WOAH, we just fell off a huge clilff, WTF happened?!?!?


Edit: I don't know why I'm sitting here eating my lunch while watching the ticker. I'm not selling any shares for a very long time anyway, yet I enjoy watching the rollercoaster for some stupid reason...

 

[jbcarioca]

People need to be told in a toaster instruction manual not to operate it in a bathtub.

I’m so over the nanny and ‘hold my hand’ state of things. We all have to pass a driver’s test (two actually - written and manual) to get legal permission to drive.

Smart people take additional accredited instruction to learn defensive driving and safety maneuvers. Smart people also pay attention when they drive and respect the fact it’s a privilege not a right to drive, and that people can get hurt and die.

As time goes on, driver’s courses will include additional information related specifically to driving an EV/Tesla if it seems warranted.

Thinking back to when I was learning to drive, it was a 50/50 split of people learning on a stick vs automatic, I don’t recall anything specifically different in the testing of either type of transmission. You still had to know the rules of the road and perform certain skills and maneuvers regardless what you were driving. Don’t see how that should change simply because it’s an EV.

I agree, no reason at all to differentiate licensing by motive source. I know no-one who disagrees with that point.