Whenever I hear anything about NIO, my only thought is, "Battery swapping bad."NIO's Q2 results are not good. Bigger loss, lower than expected earnings and poor guidance. This is similar to XPeng's Q2 results. Only Tesla seems to be doing well in the China market.
NIO Earnings and Guidance Disappointed. Why the Stock Is Rallying.
Chinese EV maker NIO reports a second-quarter adjusted loss that was wider than analysts' forecasts.www.marketwatch.com
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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
- Thread starter AudubonB
- Start date
I have a hard time understanding the new single motor model Y in Europe that cost less than the single motor model 3.
At first, with the rumor that giga Berlin will be producing model Y with LFP batteries, it made sense to me, buying a car build in Europe cost less than an imported from China one.
But now the salesman at my local Tesla store (in Belgium) told me (yesterday) that they will be coming from Shangaï.
Could someone helps me understand the logic behind this?
Thanks!
At first, with the rumor that giga Berlin will be producing model Y with LFP batteries, it made sense to me, buying a car build in Europe cost less than an imported from China one.
But now the salesman at my local Tesla store (in Belgium) told me (yesterday) that they will be coming from Shangaï.
Could someone helps me understand the logic behind this?
Thanks!
Building a Model Y is cheaper than building a similarly equipped Model 3.
Tesla developed mega-casting for a good reason.
Keep in mind that companies such a Magna and Valmet are contract vehicle manufacturers. Magna-Steyr, in particular has built cars recently for BMW, Mercedes Benz, Jaguar and Toyota. Several Chinese companies such as SAIC and JAC have done contract manufacturing for a long time.
Foxconn is already in the contract manufacturing business, in a 50:50 JV with Geely established a year ago.
Geely teams up with Foxconn to build cars, parts for other companies
Just as your phone or computer might be manufactured by a different company to the one that developed it, in the future the same could be true for cars.
On this forum we tend to drastically understate some very capable manufacturers, probably due to lack of familiarity with the names.
Major battery suppliers, such as CATL and BYD are already well ahead of the traditional names like LG and Panasonic. Just as Tesla buys from any battery supplier that can meet Tesla standards, companies like Foxconn have all the structural capability to manufacture quite excellent BEVs. I end with the battery supply topic because Foxconn is moving quickly:
Underestimating Foxconn is a hazardous undertaking. This is a superficial quick read on them.
Foxconn Success Story- The World's Largest Electronics Contract Manufacturer
Foxconn is a multinational contract manufacturer founded by Terry Gou. The company is a major manufacturer of Apple. Know its success story.
startuptalky.com
In short, Apple is very important to Foxconn, their single largest customer, but is only the most publicized part.
FWIW, if there ever were to be an Apple car it probably would be made by Foxconn.
Oh, I almost forgot: the Volvo/Geely order of GigaPress will probably be first deployed to advance their CMA architecture, now used for Volvo XC40 and C40, among others, when that platform evolved to be the first pure BEV platform. They'll change the name form CMA then too. That Geely:Foxconn JV will be primarily using GigaPress and highly integrated manufacturing too. In short Foxconn:Geely are learning Tesla lessons as quickly as possible.
Just to add a tiny hint: Li Shufu, Geely owner, also owns almost 10% pf Mercedes Benz, just a little less than does BAIC:
Shareholder Structure Mercedes-Benz Group AG | Mercedes-Benz Group
Here you can find the Daimler shareholder structure by ownership and region in percent of capital stock.
group.mercedes-benz.com
The more closely we look to the details the more we understand how quickly the BEV world is changing.
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ToTheStars
Member
I understand this. Can Tesla please start manufacturing mega-casted Model 3's?
Most of us seem to assume that nobody other that Tesla is adopting GigaPresses. Here is a recent article correcting that assumption:
europe.autonews.com
Since we also tend to underestimate manufacturers not well known in the Europe/NA world this little deal from 2019 is helping the Sino-Canadian forces to combine, albeit through the Austrian arm of the Canadians:
Disclosure: I have vested interest in some fo the entities mentioned in my last two posts.
An Italian supplier's Giga Press is changing car manufacturing
Like many new inventions, the first Giga Press unveiled by Italian die casting specialist Idra was greeted with ridicule. Now Tesla, Mercedes and Volvo are using the manufacturing technique.
Since we also tend to underestimate manufacturers not well known in the Europe/NA world this little deal from 2019 is helping the Sino-Canadian forces to combine, albeit through the Austrian arm of the Canadians:
Disclosure: I have vested interest in some fo the entities mentioned in my last two posts.
But then why would the long range mode Y cost more than the long range model 3?
petit_bateau
Active Member
Yes, especially soon in Berlin. That is my preferred purchase and I don't want crappy Fremont paintwork.
Without reference to your thesis about connector types you neglect BEV's sold in the US by Tata and Stellantis and also misrepresent charging station reliability as somehow related to connector type. All the connector types work pretty well. Charger station maintenance and design are relevant, highly relevant, but not connector types.Someone on another forum said the US goverment should just make CCS the standard for plugs in the US. I replied with this
Yes, pick the standard that 20% of the sales in the US use instead of the one that 80% use (that's also smaller and works better).
and after some back in forth with a different person I added:
...
Since my daily charging life includes both CCS and Tesla connectors my personal view is that both work perfectly well. The Tesla connector is smaller but not a material fact, in my life anyway. However I have yet to successfully use a CCS station in the US. Admittedly the ones I have tried have been EVGO and EA, but my half dozen attempts have all failed due to maintenance and/or interface failures.
The primary Tesla advantage is ubiquity and reliability. Those are far more important than is connector type.
Of course I prefer the Tesla connector, but that is NOT and will not be, the standard. During my entire life I have dealt with frequency/voltage/connector incompatibility issues in daily life, In my experience I really don't care what standard some strange place chooses, but I do prefer a single standard.
Tesla has already adapted to CCS in the EU, and will certainly head that way in the US, just to allow brand-agnostic charging. As an investor I applaud the choice.
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
Likely due to price increases being based on model/submodel specific backlog rather than on cost to build.
cliff harris
Member
NIO are not just a battery swapping company though as I recall? They are well known for that, but I thought that you can still just buy a nio, and home charge / public charge it like a Tesla?
Yup...just checked:
NIO Power | NIO
NIO Power is a mobile internet-based power solution with extensive networks for battery charging and battery swap facilities. Enhanced by Power Cloud, it offers a power service system with chargeable, swappable and upgradable batteries to provide users with power services catering to all scenarios.
I think nio is a very good long term bet. I expect tesla to be dominant, but I certainly wouldn't write off NIO, BYD or XPeng. The US investment community gets obsessed with Lucid and Rivian, companies who produce a frankly trivial number of vehicles, and super-expensive ones at that. I have some Nio stock and I'm not even going to consider selling it for another 5 years. Someone has to be second place global EV maker!
cliff harris
Member
All products are priced to maximise revenue, not a simple markup on cost. In theory competition will drive down prices so that they are close to cost to produce, but Tesla are nowhere near that. More people want a model Y than a 3, basically, and Tesla get to laugh all the way to the bank.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
No, they do not. The safety latch on CCS is routinely damaged by users. The bulkiness and weight of CCS compared to Tesla makes it a chore to insert and remove -- often times force is required. CCS users get used to yanking the connector out of the port, and when the latch is still engaged they break it.
You have to live with CCS for a while to grasp just how superior the Tesla plug is by comparison. The Tesla solution also has lights to tell the user when to remove the connector. That is **so** useful, and it is missing on CCS. I'm letting a friend use our CCS car for a few days, so I gave some thought to how to instruct him in DCFC use and not cause damage. Ughh
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ZachF
Active Member
The plunging yen is something to keep an eye on IMHO. It’s starting to turn into a disorderly rout, and Japan has so much debt that raising rates would basically instantaneously bankrupt the country.
At current FX rates Japans economy is probably smaller than Germany’s now. As I said yesterday California is probably larger than both of them now!
At current FX rates Japans economy is probably smaller than Germany’s now. As I said yesterday California is probably larger than both of them now!
I expect them to do so sooner or later. Not just to make M3 cheaper to build but to free up some much needed Fremont factory space.
Redesigning Model 3 has a fixed cost. Elon said as much as M3 rear end being pain in the butt. But it works.
MY lines in F/S/B are shorter than a M3 lines in F/S.
Just be careful. If anyone actually looked at some of the car companies that went under in the US from my post, you noticed the majority of them was during the dawn of ICE. It was a gold rush for everyone to start their own ICE company, not much different than the hundreds of EV companies in China today.NIO are not just a battery swapping company though as I recall? They are well known for that, but I thought that you can still just buy a nio, and home charge / public charge it like a Tesla?
Yup...just checked:
NIO Power | NIO
NIO Power is a mobile internet-based power solution with extensive networks for battery charging and battery swap facilities. Enhanced by Power Cloud, it offers a power service system with chargeable, swappable and upgradable batteries to provide users with power services catering to all scenarios.www.nio.com
I think nio is a very good long term bet. I expect tesla to be dominant, but I certainly wouldn't write off NIO, BYD or XPeng. The US investment community gets obsessed with Lucid and Rivian, companies who produce a frankly trivial number of vehicles, and super-expensive ones at that. I have some Nio stock and I'm not even going to consider selling it for another 5 years. Someone has to be second place global EV maker!
NIO's Q2 results are not good. Bigger loss, lower than expected earnings and poor guidance. This is similar to XPeng's Q2 results. Only Tesla seems to be doing well in the China market.
NIO Earnings and Guidance Disappointed. Why the Stock Is Rallying.
Chinese EV maker NIO reports a second-quarter adjusted loss that was wider than analysts' forecasts.
Sooner or later the other EV and legacy auto companies will not be able to hide that they can not make EVs profitably. If BYD can't do it then GM has a snowball's chance in in hell. With the EV credit I think Ford and a couple others might get to very low profits, but it won't be much.
This is absolutely true. I went to Disney World last year. The Magic Kingdom has only five L2 chargers for the thousands of cars parked there. Every charger is occupied all day every day.
Guess how many had a broken latch and were therefore unusable?
All five.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The latch looks the same on J1772 and CCS but I'm under the impression (not positive) that it functions somewhat differently. A CCS connector will not work if the latch is broken off, while a J1772 will. I think the general idea is that the risk of an arc flash increases with current.
Why would anyone use Starlink in a city?
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