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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Well Ghosen's other problems aside... while he may have been a fan of EV's, his execution left something toi be desired. It was a bit of a weirdmobile and had bad pack thermal management.

One of the things Elon realized that really pushed things forward was that you had to make EV's practical, performant, affordable, and stylish. Then they'll appeal to the masses as a whole, and not just a tree-hugging[1] segment that's willing to drive something that looks like a bug to save the environment.

[1] I don't use that term pejoratively, and happily count myself amongst those who think trees are pretty darn cool...
Cars are mostly the same... headlights, steering wheel, doors, 4 wheels, trunk in back/ICE in front (mostly) etc.. They have been differentiated in large part by style. The Prius and Leaf were both kknowingly styled to look bloody terrible. They could have given the Prius the styling cues of the Corolla... but didn't. They gave it its own visual language. Until Tesla came along, manufacturers deliberately forced buyers who want environmentally-progressive cars to choose something that looks different, weird, anaemic, odd. And put up with those looks. Meanwhile the Nissan Sentra and Toyota Corolla looked like perfectly-respectable low-end cars.

I agree with the folks that say if Tesla didn't exist, we would be stuck in the grip of manufacturers who say "if you want a nice looking car, buy ICE. If you want to save the planet, everyone will know what you think because you have to drive this compromised weirdmobile." And they would certainly not move or change/innovate fast enough to make any difference to climate change. Even the arrival of Tesla when it happened, may not be early enough to stop catastrophic climate change, but at least Tesla are speeding the process up in a way the other manufacturers never would have.
 
Meh. I still don’t like it.

Maybe charge double rates for out of network (Not a Tesla) cars and then offer a scaling discount based on usage tiers for folks on a subscription plan.
Might prove quite lucrative to Tesla depending on how the US Government-aided charging infrastructure buildout goes. IIRC Tesla was going to start installing CCS plugs on new SCs, but if OEMs start implementing NACS, then the upgrades should be "just" S/W on the Tesla side.

Tesla could very quickly increase the charging network by an order of magnitude for OEM NACS-equipped EVs and scoop up the government incentives. And we Tesla EV owners would benefit, because Tesla wouldn’t waste as much effort installing CCS plugs.
 
How are you so consistently clueless?
Lie much? Anyone familiar with Tesla's KNOWS that they are constantly evolving. From month to month they are NEVER built the same.

Do you have proof that the CT with structural pack is not happening? Source please.

Dent = straight to junkyard? You are an idiot and clearly have no idea how a car like this is built. You replace the affected panel (and don't even have to paint!!!)


Take your drivel elsewhere, your garbage won't pass the sniff test here.
Strawman arguments, so much so that there isn't anyone on this forum who needs an explanation of why your statements are hyperbole.
I will continue to disagree but this is the only time I'll bother to explain why.
Enjoy your day.

Please don't feed the trolls I ignore.
 
Technically, but that complicates things. An F350 can carry 6 people and doesn't require a CDL. Also has a bed that can be used if your trailer isn't a gooseneck.

I'm not even sure it's one we need to solve. The % of miles used by these edge cases are tiny in the scheme of things. Let boutique companies handle the mid/heavy pickup market for the foreseeable future. Economics will get those folks to either just book freight on an autonomous semi or modify how they do business.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.. it sounds like you are suggesting to offload towing/hauling needs to a company to provide the service...

Not sure that's practical for a lot of folks. I know it wouldn't be practical for the travel trailer I had.

The thing about this sort of "need" is that even though it may not rank high on the frequency of use axis, it does on the "importance" scale for many folks.

I might not need to tow/haul every day, but when I do it's critical to be able to do so.
 
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Sorry but the original Leaf was a city car. Just a niche. Nissan has been dragged along with the rest of the industry to make a real car people can travel in. Where is the Nissan Supercharger network? Why don't they make an EV as good as any Tesla model with all this experience? Toyota has had what 25 years of experience with their Prius electric drivetrain and their "coming soon" EVs are crap according to the reviews I've read. Nissan certainly proved there was a market for EVs but it was Tesla that made the EV a desired product.
I disagree with that because I don't think Nissan was "dragged along", it incrementally improved the Leaf, but not enough and was caught out and sales didn't expand. Part of the problem was that their cell and battery investments didn't pan out.

Without volume they can't afford to build a large network. Nissan initially invested quite a chunk of money in getting CHAdeMO chargers installed, but in the USA ultimately has made a charging deal with EVGo instead.

The Ariya has been pretty well received though.
 
Again, I disagree.

Historically, disruptive change has always come from outside an industry, from newcomers. The reason for this is established industries become entrenched with what works for them, what is familiar, and what they have invested heavily into. Big behemoth of companies resist big change because it upsets their bread and butter.

You might believe GM would have eventually pushed EV's to the mainstream, but history does not support this belief. Heck, even TODAY companies like GM are late to the party and slow to convert over. You need only look at how many EV's Tesla sells per year compared to legacy OEM's to see how behind they are today, EVEN WITH Tesla pushing them forward.

And you think they would have "eventually" moved to mass EV's of their own accord?

I respectfully disagree. EV only makes sense today because Tesla has explained it to everyone. :cool:
I agree with you here. Not sure what you're disagreeing with in the first place, though.
 
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Maybe you should watch the "Who Killed the Electric Car?" series. Elon Musk was (and still is) the best force for this transition, but he isn't the only one who care(s|d) about EV. They are long overdue, but Tesla was probably not necessary.

Also, China.
Without Tesla, in five years US OEMs would be trying (and failing) to compete with imported Chinese EVs. This still may happen, but potentially to a lesser degree.
 
In my opinion, without Tesla, the world would probably still be 100% ICE, and probably still be thinking that an electric car was not a viable possibility.

Kind of like the concept of landing rockets, and reusing them. Who would have thought? The rocket scientists and engineers of the day could not even imagine the obvious.

Honestly, without Tesla, it's my hunch that there would be no EVs. GM tried pretty hard to slam that door shut earlier on.
The hybrid would have continued to grow in popularity (likely the new local endgame) if not for Tesla. Hybrids are legacy OEMs wet-dreams....better MPG (implies they care), both ICEV AND EV drive trains (more serviceable parts plays favorably into their dealership service model), same production lines and conventional designers (minimal change). Thank you Tesla!
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this.. it sounds like you are suggesting to offload towing/hauling needs to a company to provide the service...

Not sure that's practical for a lot of folks. I know it wouldn't be practical for the travel trailer I had.

The thing about this sort of "need" is that even though it may not rank high on the frequency of use axis, it does on the "importance" scale for many folks.

I might not need to tow/haul every day, but when I do it's critical to be able to do so.
Just spit-balling. It will be a while before we have EV trucks that can handle what an F350 can handle. Sure those trucks could stay on diesel, but who will build them if the ICE infrastructure and manufacturing base begins to collapse?
 
I believe I'm well aware of the US' dependency on cars in all areas of life, but this sentence stil surprises me and makes me even more fortunate to never have had to rely on cars in my life (as a French, where most cities have high population density and -still- have good public transportation options).

I'm 100% behind Tesla to make the switch to EV but I wish we/Tesla would do something to reduce the reliance on cars for everything and make our cities denser / more walkable. I can't wait for all cars to be electric and autonomous but that's unavoidable with Tesla's roadmap and ambition, so I hope Tesla will next try to make transportation as unneeded as possible (in distance traveled but also in total weight transported).
That’s where Boring Company fits into this picture for our investments and the Tesla mission. Tesla is aiming for sustainable, clean, safe, high-speed, affordable terrestrial transportation.

I desperately want North American cities to become more walkable and bikeable. I spent most of the last decade not having a car and walking or biking or taking the bus as my primary means of personal transportation. Years before I began delving into Tesla, I have been asking myself how we can do this, against apparently overwhelming odds and extremely powerful cultural inertia and self-reinforcing dominance of car dependency.

Well, how do we do it? Underground autonomous electric vehicles and accompanying cheap tunnel networks. Look at Los Angeles or Houston or Atlanta on a satellite image. The majority of the land area of these sprawling concrete jungles is allocated to roads, parking, and marginal land around the roads and parking lots that’s either boring lawns or ugly patches of weeds and invasive species. Car critics including me have been shouting about these problems and inefficiency for years. What most are missing is that subterranean AEVs, while apparently just an extension of the same badly designed system, actually have the potential to wipe out the need for about 80-90% of the need for this expensive, ugly, and generally problematic surface infrastructure and in doing so also wipe out an astonishing array of economic, social, environmental and even national security problems all in one fell swoop. High-velocity motorized transport is fine, as long as it’s cheap, organized as a Personal Rapid Transit architecture, does not emit toxic pollution, and is separated from the rest of the living space by being underground. The Boring-Tesla symbiosis could solve almost all of the problems that have befallen North America (and to a lesser extent the rest of the rich areas of the world) in the last century since the ill-advised urban planning decisions of the 1920s set into motion the development of the transportation system we now suffer from today. The only problem I don’t see it solving is obesity and sedentariness, but even that it’ll probably help with somewhat if it gets more people outside walking and biking.

Las Vegas, a typical mid-sized American city with virtually no investment or ridership in traditional mass transit solutions at any point in the last century, is suddenly moving quickly towards a huge Boring Co Loop system faster than the rate of construction of subway and light rail infrastructure on this entire continent. This is happening with enthusiastic, unanimous, bipartisan approval within the local government; no taxpayer funding; and enthusiastic support from local businesses and trade unions. It will be better, cheaper, faster, more reliable, more inclusive to all socioeconomic classes, safer, and even more energy efficient than busses and trains. This is what early stages of a huge disruption looks like.

Tesla EVs are only half of the story, and this complementary element is profoundly underappreciated by the stock market. Has any pro institutional analyst mentioned this colossal long-term tailwind even ONCE in their research notes and public interviews? Even the smart ones who understand Tesla, like Pierre Ferragu and Alex Potter and Colin Rusch? Are the big retail YouTube/Twitter/TMC analysts discussing this much? Not at all from what I’ve seen.

If I as an investor got the opportunity to ask ten questions to Tesla management, three of them would be:
  1. How is Prufrock development going and how do you view Boring Co’s scaling and cost trajectory in the next twenty years?
  2. When will autonomous operation begin and what top speeds can we actually expect?
  3. How close together will robotaxis in the tunnels be able to safely operate?
I’m working on essays about this to present a thesis on this topic but I urge TSLA investors to dig into this some more on their own. I’m still estimating that a robotaxi operating in a Loop has roughly triple the financial net present value compared to a surface robotaxi and Vegas Loop robotaxi service is almost certain to be the first instance of Tesla autonomous ride-hailing, possibly by several years since we still don’t really know how hard true Level 5 autonomy is with Tesla’s approach.
 
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2 hours in and 90M shares traded.

A45EB614-2418-4443-ADB9-8A9BB611A3C8.gif
 
The hybrid would have continued to grow in popularity if not for Tesla. Hybrids are legacy OEMs wet-dreams....better MPG (implies they care), both ICEV AND EV drive trains (more serviceable parts plays favorably into their dealership service model), same production lines and conventional designers (minimal change). Thank you Tesla!
XHEV are, relatively speaking, low-maintenance vehicles compared to ICEV. They use a low-maintenance system to reduce the load on the high-maintenance system, so I don't think the service is an issue.

But the rest stands: it's easier for them to do PHEV.
 
If I as an investor got the opportunity to ask ten questions to Tesla management, three of them would be:
  1. How is Prufrock development going and how do you view Boring CO’s scaling and cost trajectory in the next twenty years?

And Tesla management would probably respond something like: "We have no idea, why are you asking us about a different company's products and plans?"
 
Las Vegas, a typical mid-sized American city with virtually no investment or ridership in traditional mass transit solutions at any point in the last century, is suddenly moving quickly towards a huge Boring Co Loop system faster than the rate of construction of subway and light rail infrastructure on this entire continent. This is happening with enthusiastic, unanimous, bipartisan approval within the local government; no taxpayer funding; and enthusiastic support from local businesses and trade unions. It will be better, cheaper, faster, more reliable, more inclusive to all socioeconomic classes, safer, and even more energy efficient than busses and trains. This is what early stages of a huge disruption looks like.

Tesla EVs are only half of the story, and this complementary element is profoundly underappreciated by the stock market. Has any pro institutional analyst mentioned this colossal long-term tailwind even ONCE in their research notes and public interviews? Even the smart ones who understand Tesla, like Pierre Ferragu and Alex Potter and Colin Rusch? Are the big retail YouTube/Twitter/TMC analysts discussing this much? Not at all from what I’ve seen.

If I as an investor got the opportunity to ask ten questions to Tesla management, three of them would be:
  1. How is Prufrock development going and how do you view Boring CO’s scaling and cost trajectory in the next twenty years?
  2. When will autonomous operation begin and what top speeds can we actually expect?
  3. How close together will robotaxis in the tunnels be able to safely operate?
I’m working on essays about this to present a thesis on this topic but I urge TSLA investors to dig into this some more on their own. I’m still estimating that a robotaxi operating in a Loop has roughly triple the financial net present value compared to a surface robotaxi and Vegas Loop robotaxi service is almost certain to be the first instance of Tesla autonomy ride hailing, possibly by several years since we still don’t really know how hard true Level 5 autonomy is with Tesla’s approach.

I agree, but note that Las Vegas did build a mass transit system last century, the monorail. It ended up a bankrupt disaster. Kills me how all these subway fanboys dump on Loop, but conveniently forget the Vegas monorail. Not to mention that most mass transit systems are uneconomical and heavily taxpayer subsidized.

So yes, give Loop a chance. It’s an innovative mass transit system for congested city cores. And a great marketing project for Tesla.
 
Without a strong, ambitious EV leader, the industry would have stayed making ICE for as long as possible. I don't believe nothing would have happen without Tesla.

EV make too much sense, economically, geopolitically, environmentally, financially, etc. We would have wasted some years without Tesla as the main force, but things would have changed.
I suspect those changes may have been inferior, however.

Adoption by mandate is seldom compelling.
 
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I think the point was about "refuel" time though. I have no doubt that the towing capability is is quite good, but unfortunately an EV cannot yet hold a candle to being able to completely refuel in 5 minutes.
IMO, that's where 4680s come in. Ultra high speed charging (and discharging). Has anyone like the Limiting Factor tested or compared - although it might be a difficult test since it would be looking for degrading performance over many cycles while using a similar cooling system... which is pretty big chunk of the research Tesla had to undertake. Anyway, that's the reveal I've been waiting for.
 
Maybe you should read the forum on a smartphone. Smartphones that would never have existed without Apple, obviously 😆
While that's a technically accurate snark, it's also misleading,

Were "smartphones" available before the iPhone? Yes.. kinda.

Did Apple "reinvent" the market". Also yes.

What we have today is light years ahead of the trajectory the rest of the cell phone industry was on. Perhaps another company would have done it, but the fact is Apple did it.

Same with Tesla.
 
In the same sentence, he said, the design was finished, he added, but we never really stop finishing the design or put our pencils down. the giga press is just another Texas size marketing. Any manufacturer can purchase a gigapress, they just can’t call it by that cool name. But Tesla doesn’t make it or a hold any patents to it. And they have no data on long-term ownership. If you get a dent does it goes straight to the junkyard.
They would never over sell anything, just like the Texas 4680. A game changer, so much that they had to modify the line to mainly produce Ys with other batteries. And who would buy one without a structural battery pack, the cheaper price, the longer range, the more kilowatt density? also to recycle them you must grind the whole pack up and convert back to ore, smart, very smart
You do realize that Tesla designed the gigapress in conjunction with IRDA right? They literally helped make the thing. And their metallurgy team developed a custom alloy needed to use it.

They just might have some IP and secret sauce there.
 
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