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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
11,663
32,296
Seattle, WA
Fortune published a tiny piece quoting Bill Gates as recommending that wind and solar subsidies be dropped, shifting the subsidies to other emerging renewable energy technologies.

Why Bill Gates Thinks It’s Time to End Subsidies for Wind and Solar Power

No questions posed about whether it might be better to eliminate the massive subsidies for the petroleum industry that dwarf all this piddly renewable stuff.
This kind of "free market" orthodoxy is going to get all humans killed.
 

Carl Raymond

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
1,572
13,329
NSW, Australia
I imagine if it does anything significant for racing, a whole lot of races will start adding explicit bans on air thrusters, since it changes what car racing means in a pretty significant way.

Also incredibly dangerous if not done with barge landing precision.

Imagine you are half way round a high g bend where only the thrusters are holding you in and down, and you lose thrust... You would set a record, for the size of the debris field.
 

MarcusMaximus

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
3,789
16,747
Los Gatos
I'm now curious about the difference between the Blue and Red Plaid prototypes...

Perhaps they are an identical car, and Tesla is playing it safe by having 2 cars available.

Or perhaps one of them is a "base model" with a smaller battery and smaller motors.

We will have to wait to be told officially, but if one is faster, my money is on the Red, but perhaps that is just the color making a difference :)

You take the blue car - the story ends, you wake up in your Taycan and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red car - you stay in Wonderland and Tesla shows you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,842
40,398
Oregon
Oh, and remember that dispute earlier over whether Turbo S could be gotten with summer tires on the Mission E wheels at all (let alone the specific ones they raced on)? There wasn't any disagreement at all that the Turbo can't. ;)

Now they are saying that the problem is we are looking at the US site, and if you order from the German site even the Turbo comes with summer tires. (I tried to use translators to look at the site and I couldn't find anywhere that specified the type of tires that came with the 21" Mission E wheels.)
 
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Jan 18, 2019
417
4,750
Mars Gigafactory 1
Have you watched that video where the lap record was set and seen anything about the car that did that lap? It's an actual race car - not something that pretends anywhere to be anything except a race car. I think it's either one of their Le Mans cars, or comes from that world.

Here we go: Porsche 919 Hybrid - Wikipedia

It's a Le Mans LMP1 class car. If I read the page correctly, at least a 2 time winner ('16, '17).

I think that talking and thinking about Roadster 2 as being competitive with a full on race car over anything other than a straight line acceleration, quarter mile, or similar is enjoying the Kool-Aid a bit too much.

(Sidebar - you really gotta watch the video. Reading the Youtube comments is also funny - any number of people commenting that they thought they'd goofed and set the replay to 1.5x or 2.0x, but nope - it was 1.0x. Plenty more people commenting they can't go that fast in their car racing video game :D)


Better / faster than any other production car that's been taken to the 'Ring - that I can readily believe.

Meh. I watched it at 0.75x speed and it ran an unremarkable 7:05.33
;)

That's utterly insane.

The top speed is impressive as I would expect it to be running quite a lot of down force to be able to corner that fast.

I wonder, do these cars have DRS systems like F1, any idea?

Interesting line around The Carousel too - all the way around the outside, I always took it on the inside camber, but hard to control the car around it then.

Thanks for posting the video - I think I've watched it 3 or 4 times now over the last few months. This last time, I think I saw the car drop under 100 km/h around 1 corner. Using the overhead map they helpfully supply, that "corner", looks like a 180 degree hairpin where the road folds on itself. Sure - I'd drop under 60 mph (instead of the 10 or 15 that is sane) for that too.

Yeah - that's well described as "horrifyingly fast".

It seriously is crazy fast.
The top comment of this video is too funny:
"I wore my helmet while watching this video just to be safe"
 

Rb48888

Here’s your sign.
Supporting Member
Jul 14, 2018
142
1,742
Tennessee
IMHO, This is a great opportunity for Tesla. to develop light way "racing seats" for plaid s/x/roadster and rotor/pad/caliper/tire combinations. and sell a competition package for the Model 3 in order fo the seats to benefit from Economy of scale slightly by offering it on a $25K+ package on the P3D. HUGE Margin car.

This.

While we're dreaming, a plaid-inspired high-flow lower grille for that Model 3 competition package too, please.

I'd like people to think of the world's fastest production sedan when they see me coming.
 
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lascavarian

little endian
Supporting Member
Jul 27, 2017
1,368
7,846
usa
To add on...there's absolutely zero reason to not give a price range, for example mid 130's, for the Plaid version.

Disagree. There is no reason to have any discussion beyond only the most vague of terms. In this case fear and uncertainty are your friend. I am mystified they are even giving it any discussion. For all we know this thing could grenade after a couple hard days.
 

StarFoxisDown!

Active Member
Jan 23, 2019
3,458
31,999
Seattle
Disagree. There is no reason to have any discussion beyond only the most vague of terms. In this case fear and uncertainty are your friend. I am mystified they are even giving it any discussion. For all we know this thing could grenade after a couple hard days.

Well sure. ;)....my preference would have been that this not have turned into a lot of publicity and Elon just stayed silent on this whole track testing anyways. Sure people at the track might have spotted it but oh well. It's not like porsche was going to crank out volume production on the Taycan at any point this year.....its not even hitting the US market until next year. Elon could've stayed silent on the Plaid version until Spring of next year easily and then brought it out to kill any Taycan hype just as porsche would be about to start actual volume production
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,587
14,511
QLD Australia
Disagree. There is no reason to have any discussion beyond only the most vague of terms. In this case fear and uncertainty are your friend. I am mystified they are even giving it any discussion. For all we know this thing could grenade after a couple hard days.

The Pickup reveal in November is a suitable time to disclose specs, prices and production timeline, if they want to..

I think they may also have a Plaid prototype Model X on display...

All this is a suitable "warm up act" for the Pickup reveal....

Otherwise if they just do a Pickup reveal, it is potentially a short event...

I'm 70% sure the Pickup reveal will say something about the Plaid power-train...

IMO the Plaid Model S is a Taycan competitor and only partially a competitor to the Raven Model S, once pricing an timelines are revealed, buyers can make a decision. Model S owners who were thinking of switching to a Taycan will wait for the Plaid Model S. Everyone else will make up their mind depending on their time-frame and budget... if a small number of buyers wait for a Plaid Model S rather than buying a Raven, that is possibly offset by better margins on the Plaid edition.
 
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Todd Burch

Voltage makes me tingle.
Nov 3, 2009
8,264
34,190
Smithfield, VA
It would be VERY bad for Elon to outline a price range well in advance of production.

Remember what the media did with the $35k Model 3? Don’t want to experience that again.

Tesla needs to complete initial track testing and durability testing before they can better hone in on the cost to build the car. A lot can happen in a year.

Plus, Tesla will want to gauge initial interest as well. If they announce $135k and find demand is off the hook, they missed out on charging $150k instead.

What’s certain is that this will not be a small price premium over the Raven.

My bet is it will be anywhere from $130k to $160k.
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,587
14,511
QLD Australia
It would be VERY bad for Elon to outline a price range well in advance of production.

Remember what the media did with the $35k Model 3? Don’t want to experience that again.

Tesla needs to complete initial track testing and durability testing before they can better hone in on the cost to build the car. A lot can happen in a year.

Plus, Tesla will want to gauge initial interest as well. If they announce $135k and find demand is off the hook, they missed out on charging $150k instead.

What’s certain is that this will not be a small price premium over the Raven.

My bet is it will be anywhere from $130k to $160k.

My guess is 2 versions base $120-130K, premium $140-145K.

If they don't reveal a price, they need to make it clear there is a significant price premium over the Raven, perhaps a range and a statement similar to yours is best ...."$130k to $160k." Even if I am right, your statement is a much better way of saying it, at this time,
 

SoGA Fan Club

Member
Supporting Member
May 22, 2019
557
3,151
Savannah, GA
My guess is 2 versions base $120-130K, premium $140-145K.

If they don't reveal a price, they need to make it clear there is a significant price premium over the Raven, perhaps a range and a statement similar to yours is best ...."$130k to $160k." Even if I am right, your statement is a much better way of saying it, at this time,

It would definitely be smart to announce a price now - even if the actual price is lower when it goes into production. Personally, I don't see why it wouldn't start at $185k - that's what the performance (uhhhh...Turbo S) Taycan starts at, and the Plaid is CLEARLY a far superior car in every way.
 
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acoste

Member
Nov 1, 2018
742
715
California
TLDR version: "No, we published a time from our slow car, without telling anyone at the time that it was our slow car, because that's a totally normal thing to do! What, did we race our fast car, and what time did we get? Um.... no further questions." ;)

And of course, the car they raced was neither Turbo nor Turbo S; it was a stripped pre-production prototype:


Stock my arse. ;)

Oh, and remember that dispute earlier over whether Turbo S could be gotten with summer tires on the Mission E wheels at all (let alone the specific ones they raced on)? There wasn't any disagreement at all that the Turbo can't. ;)

I suggest you look up the photos from Frankfurt. All summer tires....

and


If Taycan was not close to a production car, why would Porsche CEO say this:


It's great to see healthy competition. However, Zellmer also referenced the modified Model S as of late, saying:

"That's obviously going to limit their relevance of what they've been doing."
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,870
57,484
Los Angeles, USA
Honestly, I'm so happy when I see an electric vehicle advertisement on mainstream TV networks. Every dollar Porsche spends on producing and airing these things will lead to more EV converts, and more EV converts means more Teslas sold. It's better advertising than Tesla could pay for themselves.


So does advertising lead to more Tesla sales or not? 14 people gave this post a like but it seems the overwhelming majority on TMC assert paid TV/Radio/Print/Web ads don't work or wouldn't result in more Tesla sales because all lines of Tesla vehicles are production constrained and ads wouldn't generate higher ASP because youtubers and Elon's twitter feed has educated the entire world on Tesla features.
 

KarenRei

ᴉǝɹuǝɹɐʞ
Jul 18, 2017
9,619
104,589
Iceland
If Taycan was not close to a production car, why would Porsche CEO say this:

It's great to see healthy competition. However, Zellmer also referenced the modified Model S as of late, saying:

"That's obviously going to limit their relevance of what they've been doing."

*Facepalm*

Gee, I can't think of any reason would excuse away inconvenient facts about their own vehicle and try to cast aspersions on a competing vehicle. No sireee... clearly no possible reason there... ;)

Look at the pictures of the Taycan. It's visibly, heavily modified. And the "record" was set weeks before production started, with a vehicle produced some unknown time before that (a Taycan was first spotted there in May, half a year before production start, so if it is the same car, it was over half a year pre-production)
 

Carl Raymond

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
1,572
13,329
NSW, Australia
A few thoughts on Osborne.

Musk has already suggested that he doesn't much care what happens to Model S and Model X. The future of Tesla lies with 3 and Y and eventually pickup and semi. Obviously more S and X sales are better than fewer, but the survival of Tesla is not at stake. Perhaps Elon feels free to experiment/play with these models - for giggles.

The basic look and shape of a Model S is not changing. The halo effect of plaid means that anybody ordering a raven now buys some of that halo. It's obvious that plaid costs significantly more and involves a year of wait. Will more people order now, 'raven with some free halo' for $x, or will more people people defer a year to buy 'plaid with real halo' for $x plus 40%? I think more will buy now. A tiny percentage of buyers would even know what to do with torque vectoring.

Then there's the halo effect on the wider Tesla brand and Musk's other ventures - other models, solar, storage, boring, space, neuralink. Plus the free advertising of the whole ring circus - hundreds of headlines and ongoing.

All up, an immaculately timed track visit. Well played.
 

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