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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I can't wait to listen to it. But I bet the negative narratives by taking comments out of context will last for the next couple of months.

When Elon riffs with fanboys (I consider myself one) the shorts always take sentences out of context for their own purpose.

Unfortunately I have to agree. It’s particularly bad when Elon is surrounded by such cheerleaders (yes, Gali is a smart guy, but he gets overexcited too easily, and I’m not yet sure if anyone else in that group is more grounded / cerebral), he tends to play to the crowd and agree to some out-there, pie-in-the-sky ideas which have a very small chance of being realised in the short term. So I really hope they didn’t spend hours talking about robotaxis.

As an Elon Musk fan, however... wheeeee!
 
Unfortunately I have to agree. It’s particularly bad when Elon is surrounded by such cheerleaders (yes, Gali is a smart guy, but he gets overexcited too easily, and I’m not yet sure if anyone else in that group is more grounded / cerebral), he tends to play to the crowd and agree to some out-there, pie-in-the-sky ideas which have a very small chance of being realised in the short term. So I really hope they didn’t spend hours talking about robotaxis.

As an Elon Musk fan, however... wheeeee!
Never fear...momma Maye was there to keep everyone on the straight and narrow! ;)

Dan
 
Unfortunately I have to agree. It’s particularly bad when Elon is surrounded by such cheerleaders (yes, Gali is a smart guy, but he gets overexcited too easily, and I’m not yet sure if anyone else in that group is more grounded / cerebral), he tends to play to the crowd and agree to some out-there, pie-in-the-sky ideas which have a very small chance of being realised in the short term. So I really hope they didn’t spend hours talking about robotaxis.

As an Elon Musk fan, however... wheeeee!

IMHO, the fun part is how much the worst of the shorts - particularly Greenspan - despise Omar, from the tops of their pitchforks to the bottom of their hooves. And so there he is, palling around with Elon in person. It'll fuel endless rage and conspiracy theories, which only serve to make them look ridiculous.
 
Chinese “online marketing campaign” is a totally different animal.
If you are new to it, just assume 95% of the comments or forum posts are not from real customers.

That’s a real Wild West for smear campaigns, just yesterday I saw article saying MIC Model 3 will drop price by a further 30%, buried in a seemingly bullish article but in fact just trying to deter buyers by starting rumors.

For NIO, they had built up a strong user following, mostly through referrals programs, also by nationalism driven irrational decisions.

Disclaimer, I am long NIO with play money.

After GF3 reaches scale, Tesla will be able to produce EVs that are way better than anyone else at lowest production cost. All competitors will have a hard time.
 
You know... some things are meme-worthy. Some others aren’t. A natural disaster that killed over 10,000 people falls into that second category, in my opinion. You can say the shorts will get “wiped out” and I will agree with the figurative sense of that expression, however I would hope this community does not lower itself to the level of wishing for other people’s literal extermination, or make comparisons to that effect. While the video you included is not particularly graphic, please realise that that is the exact way in which many people got trapped in their cars in March 2011 and drowned to death. To paraphrase someone many of us admire: gravitas is a terrible thing to lose!
 
In case people here missed it, a while back Elon agreed to an interview with the guys from the Third Row Tesla podcast (which is when I personally became aware of this new podcast, and I still haven’t listened to any so far).

According to a tweet from Elon’s mom, the interview happened on Friday Saturday, 4th Jan. And now this happens:View attachment 496650

Twitter

Fasten your seatbelts, and prepare to kiss your loved ones farewell for a while…
Reminds me of a tune, dimly remembered from my youth:

Saturday in the park, I think it was the 4th of January
People talking, really smiling
Will you help him change the world
Can you dig it (yes, I can)
And I've been waiting such a long time
For today... :cool:

ENfNYgwUYAAGVGT.jpg


Be Well; Do Good. :D

Cheers!
 
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You know... some things are meme-worthy. Some others aren’t. A natural disaster that killed over 10,000 people falls into that second category, in my opinion. You can say the shorts will get “wiped out” and I will agree with the figurative sense of that expression, however I would hope this community does not lower itself to the level of wishing for other people’s literal extermination, or make comparisons to that effect. While the video you included is not particularly graphic, please realise that that is the exact way in which many people got trapped in their cars in March 2011 and drowned to death. To paraphrase someone many of us admire: gravitas is a terrible thing to lose!
Yes, I considered that which was reflected in my choice of clip.

I also feel its important to note that Tesla's float.
 
No, that was not my take-away. I believe he said TSLA has near-term value of around $900 (but I would have to re-listen to confirm absolutely). What he actually said is that his Put position was not because he thought Tesla was under-performing or there was anything wrong with the company, but because of the circus surrounding TSLA and the trading of Tesla. He thinks it will become very volatile (first up after Q4 earnings release and assumed short squeeze and then down after short-covering is satisfied).

I think he is over-confident to predict such a scenario with such apparent confidence. Totally baffling.

TSLA could be at any price between $600 and $300 on February 21st and he will have lost everything. Truly a baffling bet. I mean, why not purchase fewer options ATM instead so you'll at least make money on one side or the other?
 
My post actually referred to changing regulatory and reporting environments that are evolving to challenge past practices.

Four of the largest US participants self-deal by having both their own funds lending, but also using their affiliated lending agent (forced reporting since 2017) as well as affiliated brokers (unreported) and affiliated MMF (unreported). The latter two seem highly probable but are not disclosed. The four are State Street, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs and Vanguard. They did not even report lending agents until forced by 2017 legislation. Three others are more subtle about this by mostly acting for others i.e. State Street, BNY Mellon and Brown Brothers Harriman. We may safely assume that under current the US administration nobody will look at this, much less challenge it. This article becomes quite technical but it does lay out a pretty clear case for the net detriment to total returns tending to result from current securities lending practices.
SSRN-id3081123.pdf





However the EU is quite different because they ARE challenging these practices.
62946b2e-1a36-3bd9-9515-f48dfda43b2a.
That is a paywalled link to a recent illustrative FT article. I cannot post it openly here, but it points out how specifically the EU is attacking Securities Lending practice.

None of this suggests that following S&P inclusion TSLA net volatility will increase because of reduced participation by institutional investors. Black Rock first and foremost will fight with all their power to preserve their income streams, with the only slightly less connected ones, Fidelity, Goldman and Vanguard fighting with them. Obviously the third-party processing powers will do all they can to remain invisible outside the cognoscenti.

However, following S&P inclusion and the coming debt ratings improvements we also have both GF-3 and GF-4 which themselves will be powerful impetus for non-US institutional investor action. That non-US portion is very unlikely to participate in securities lending even through their favored US intermediaries. Specifically Deutsche, Commerzbank and nearly every major sovereign risk fund will be out of this practice. It is clear that until very recently many non-US regulators have turned blind eyes. Just as with other commercial issues (e.g. Boeing, Huawei) some US administration positions are engendering opposition rather than support.

So, in TSLA we have one of those rare species in which support outside the US is defiantly stronger than it is in the US. US attacks on TSLA are not well received, especially when they involve securities manipulations that are deemed illegal or, at best, suspicious by the EU and others.

Thus I argue that through S&P inclusion of TSLA, as symbol of maturity, quite a large body of investors will begin to participate that are distinctly different from the big US mutual funds and others. Those will have the net effect of reducing available float for lending.

There is my logic. I'm confident of it. There are many more research and opinion articles on the subject.

I am often wrong! Please argue if you think I'm off base.

Lastly, my belief is that some substantial part of current buying activity is the direct result of forthcoming GF-3 and GF-4 as demonstrations of major global support. For support of this thesis there are historical precedents recent and older. This topic becomes very long. In short: watch TSLA Supercharger expansions to see correlation to Belt and Road Initiative. As that effect grows more and more true 'buy and hold' non-US investors will rise rapidly.

On this one I am NOT wrong!! The evidence was overwhelming the day GF-3 began and repeated when GF-4 was so quickly begun.
Very good stuff, as usual, and we have come to rely on your commercial bank experience for lifting the carpet under some of those musty, dusty floors to learn what's crawling underneath.
My comment was specifically referring to passive index funds and their penchant for lending, however. So, unless you can convince me that the sheer size of the prime actors are so massive that they can indeed cut off their limbs to feed their maws, as it were*, then I'll stand by my comment.


*Can't fit into that reference the real point: If an entity or group of like-acting entities is such a massive player in a market - let's call it Brown Brothers Heisenberg & Co. - that lending all its shares out to short sellers can indeed drive the market down - and thus one might infer it is acting in contradiction to its and its clients' best interests. Better rename itself Brown Bros. Ouroboros & Co. BUT even in this head-swirling situation, that fund would STILL be outperforming - on an absolute scale - its index. Nonetheless: yuck.

Short version: I believe we were discussing different points.

PS: You placed BBHarriman in both the Inner 4 and Outer 3 groupings. Am trying to remember who the other actor is in fact. T. Rowe Price? Capital? Bessemer Trust?
 
TSLA could be at any price between $600 and $300 on February 21st and he will have lost everything. Truly a baffling bet. I mean, why not purchase fewer options ATM instead so you'll at least make money on one side or the other?

Like most options traders, he won't hold until expiry. But in order to make money, the stock needs to at least appear to be on the trajectory to one or the other. The theta on those options is terrible.

I encouraged him to at least sell right before earnings, when IV is high. He wasn't warm to the idea.
 
...

Short version: I believe we were discussing different points.
We probably were. There is zero probability that Black Rock, Fidelity and Vanguard will depart securities lending. They all three could easily have (note: I do not say do have) affiliated Money market Funds, Brokers and Lending Agents, each of which could take large enough cuts that they'd be apoplectic to disclose, much less stop. Also, that 2017 law will be eviscerated this quarter, if my rumor mill is correct, so we won't even know about the lending agent any more.
The total take from a loan of securities by any large player almost always exceeds the amount the borrower pays by more than twice. Just add the three categories; imagine how much each makes, include the float, add the ex-exchange arrangement fees. To my shame one of those that does all three paid me to help them do it.
additional note: I am subject to nda on many details because I worked on securities lending support structure for more than one of these named participants



 
A last addendum to the saga of shorts:

The more volatile a security is the easier algorithmic trading profits are. Anything that reduces volatility diminishes the consistency and percentage of profit. Those who calculate how much shorts have lost by a runup completely miss the point. The profits come from volatility. Talking a security down increases volatility. The broader confidence becomes the less the volatility, the lower profits from professional trader shorts.

By contrast the "political" shorts who actually bet on the price reduction of a security are doomed to lose money most of the time. The public rhetoric of both is hard to distinguish. The preeminent signal is if the participant remains active despite long runup in share price.
 
To date, I believe most EV's drop faster in value than comparable ICE cars. As far as I know, Tesla's are the only prominent exception. They retain their resale value better than comparable ICE cars.
This premise has been changing lately, at least in the UK. Some older Nissan Leafs haven't dropped in value at all and some are starting to increase in value as the market starts to understand them.
The used electric cars going UP in value - CarGurus Blog (UK)
 
Except, where's the technology for those battery factories going to come from? Not from LG Chem or CATL or Tesla. You think Japan will basically fund Panasonic to massively scale capacity? And Germany would invest in what, Northvolt? It's a big gamble that they'll still be on top of the battery game at that time. (Some possibilities: what if someone else comes out with solid state and lithium ion goes by the wayside? What if Tesla actually does come up with substantially superior lithium ion? What if CATL eats everybody's lunch?)

I guess they could fund an outsider to build giant battery factories for the local OEMs (as if the US had paid for Panasonic's part of GF1), but that seems like it would defeat the purpose of propping up locals.

If those countries don't seriously invest in battery technology, like, yesterday -- I don't see how a plan to build massive battery factories some time in the future is going to help.

Panasonic? Sure.

I think it will get to the point Germany and Japan would even fund Tesla to build the factories if need be (or perhaps more like GFs designed in California built in Europe and Japan, but for companies based in those countries). Elon started Tesla to speed up the global automakers moving to sustainable transport. If it requires giving them the GF construction “recipe” and “cooking lessons,” I suspect he’d gladly sign on.

I’m not ‘certain’ this will happen, but I think it’s likely.

I don’t see anything big happening in this direction in the next year or two, but somewhere roughly 2025-2030 I think it is likely.

I just don’t see Japan and Germany sitting idly as Tesla and China/Chinese emerging EV automakers dramatically hollow out a massive chunk of their economies, and, a feeling of ‘national identity’ so to speak. (Yes, if Tesla is called in to lead the GF build up process, some sensitivity to that ‘national identity’ feeling would probably be needed. We did see a humble, gracious Elon on stage in Germany receiving the Car of the Year Award next to VW’s CEO).

If this is what happens, I still see massive growth from Tesla for over another decade, with it doubtful we cross 50% EV supply (vs ICE) by 2030 despite probably being 90% or better demand EV by then.

Again, it’s not as if I ‘know’ this, but we’ll see.
 
Chinese “online marketing campaign” is a totally different animal.
If you are new to it, just assume 95% of the comments or forum posts are not from real customers.

That’s a real Wild West for smear campaigns, just yesterday I saw article saying MIC Model 3 will drop price by a further 30%, buried in a seemingly bullish article but in fact just trying to deter buyers by starting rumors.

For NIO, they had built up a strong user following, mostly through referrals programs, also by nationalism driven irrational decisions.

Disclaimer, I am long NIO with play money.
Looked into no but I cannot see how a car company will survive without a factory. They bought land for one when tesla did in China but sold it and cancelled plans to build one. Their margin is after the company producing the car gets theirs. Last qtr to sell more cars they discounted the price by 8%. That came off nios bottom line not the manufacturer. Their last free cash was 160 million which is less than the 200 million they had just borrowed to achieve that. They have warned that they do not have enough funds to continue without raising more this year. Many are betting that the Chinese government will bail them out but I do not expect the government to bailout the shareholders just the company. I like risk but this one does not make a lot of sense to me
 
Elon started Tesla to speed up the global automakers moving to sustainable transport. If it requires giving them the GF construction “recipe” and “cooking lessons,” I suspect he’d gladly sign on.

I don't think Elon ever imagine how thick the legacy auto makers would be. I imagine he thought there was a chance Tesla would have a short period of success and then big auto would see the error of their ways and adapt and overtake him quickly. Tesla could easily produce more EVs than many major automakers produce cars in 2-3 years. I think at this point Elon knows he's got leverage he never imagined he'd have in his wildest dreams.
 
Why hasn’t Nissan included the leaf in their 2020 car line offerings? Remember Carlos gone now. He was the champion of the leaf

It’s a good question. We have a 2020 Leaf Eplus SL in order. Expected delivery 1st week of April ish. There are currently 20 new leafs for sale in British Columbia...all model year 2019. Not one 2020. Our sales rep says anything coming out of the factory now is a model 2020 but they haven’t seen one yet.

Minor changes for 2020. More USB ports. Etc etc. OTA updates. Mostly the same though.

Nissan did update their YouTube channel with about 85 new owners manual type videos for the 2020.

Rumour has it the 2020 press kit will be realeasef during the CES show in Vegas. They have one there.
 
Nobody has mentioned this yet: 2020 is a Leap Year

So Tesla will have an extra day of production on Feb 29. I predict that Tesla will produce an extra 1,040 Model 3 cars at Fremont and ~500 at Shanghai because of this extra day of production.

Of course, S/X production should also increase, likely by about ~200 cars. Thats a total of ~1,740 extra cars produced total due to the Leap Year, generating ~$21M extra profit.

Cheers!

P.S. Anybody buying LEAPS? :D