Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
In other news, Pennsylvania's government is a shambles.

Pennsylvania Treasury. on Twitter
John Fetterman on Twitter
Actually, this is artifact of Twitter. The account, PA treasury, is not a government account at all. It is a private organization. Twitter should remove the couch due to confusion that it is a government account, but I doubt they will. I have reported for impersonation.

edit: I am wrong. Wow. WTF is an official account doing this kind of crap for?
 
Last edited:
Here’s a funny thing. On at least 2 occasions, when people saw my S with trunk open, they came up to me and said “oh I didn’t realize Tesla made a hatchback”.

My impression is that some people think hatchback is a sedan with trunk door that includes the back window.
It’s not?

Edit: It’s not?
 
...

Anyway, while I wouldn't read too much into a teaser, I still think it's pretty obvious that they are thinking of a smaller, less expensive, higher volume vehicle class - just like economics and the physics of city life is dictating it in China and Europe.

(But maybe I'm wrong about the small form factor too, not just the numbering scheme or the lack of it.)
I rarely disagree with your logic, but this is one of those rare times, and only on implications of smaller size.

The smaller size vehicles often have very fully equipped versions that sell for very premium prices. Examples include the 'hot hatch' category and the 'compact lux' models typically sell for ~0-50% more than do the base models, and also tend to have higher option take rates also. Those high-spec models typically account for 13-30% of unit volume, depending on the market. They also tend to represent most of the gross margin, and in the several cases that I have actually seen internal numbers they were >100% of gm. (Note: my direct knowledge is from work done on behalf of three different large auto manufacturers a long time ago. Thus, if the relative market composition has changed I could be wrong. All the evidence I see suggests these relationships are constant, specifically including Tesla).

For Tesla the specifics (e.g. FSD, connectivity, Supercharging, colors, wheels, interiors) all support that thesis with take rates producing huge gm improvements.

The smaller the form factor the more consequential the option takeup and premium version takeup become). For some reason almost everyone thinks small cars equal low gm's. 'T'ain't' necessarily true! That should be obvious to all of us as we reflect on the impact of those options above as one goes to smaller, cheaper form factors.

In other words, the impact of option takeup on gross margin tends to be inversely related to the base price of the model in question.

That the upcoming smaller models will end out with essentially Model 3-like gross margins. As new models proliferate using the same 'skateboard' gm will increase for all. The same effect will accrue as GF-1, GF-3, GF-4 and others enter production. As we all know now, capital efficiency is rising too, so incremental capex allocations per vehicle will steadily decrease, thus providing another virtuous cycle.

Somehow I believe that the recent dramatic increase in large buyers reflects the growing understanding that Tesla has reached critical mass and that pricing competitively with ICE is now happening while margins continue to rise.

That, coupled with what we are learning now about Tesla Energy distributed grid services etc all easily support the most aggressive analyst estimates. It seems ridiculous to imagine $650 coming soon, but think about it.

We think we're bulls while we're missing the actual achievements before our eyes. Anyway it seems so to me.
 
In other words, the impact of option takeup on gross margin tends to be inversely related to the base price of the model in question.

That the upcoming smaller models will end out with essentially Model 3-like gross margins.

I don't think we disagree (and thanks for the fascinating details about A-class pricing!), by "less expensive" I meant the base price, to increase the addressable market - and get people in the door and upsell them.

Lower entry price is crucial to China IMO:

  • China EV policies are shaping up to be like Norway was 10 years ago: exceedingly advantageous EV-friendly policies pushed by the government. Only that Norway's annual car sales are 0.15m, while China's is 25.7m, or 170 times larger (in units).
  • The main problem with China is that due to the lower purchase power of Chinese citizens the average new car price is a fraction of that of western car ASPs.
  • A smaller Tesla in the $20k-$30k price range (below 150,000¥ is ~$21k USD, 200,000¥ is ~$29k) would address a far larger portion of the Chinese market: with a "Tesla stretch" about a third of all Chinese car buyers could afford a Tesla Model 1, and in 5 years that might be 50% of the market or higher if China continues to increase in the purchase power of their citizens.
  • The numbers: average Chinese worker income was around 90,000¥ in 2019, but there was an about 10% growth in recent years - so annual income might be above 200,000¥ for families by the time the Model 1 arrives. Most middle class people buy cars where the ASP is about equal to their annual family income - that's a big psychological barrier to cross. So an entry price for the Model 1 of 150,000¥ would be able to capture close to half of all Chinese consumers, in about 3 years from now

But smaller vehicle is also more practical in cities, so I agree that it's not just about the price.
 
Regarding small form factor teslas:

As a UK driver, I can see theoretical enormous appeal for such a car. our roads are super narrow, our car parking spaces are tiny, and we aren't a nation of people towing boats around after us. a small car, even a 2 door tesla, would be theoretically very popular here.

HOWEVER

There are likely big technical challenges in making a smaller car, because people generally don't spend a LOT of money on a small car. My old lexus CT200h was £25,000 and thats a luxury car (think maybe $31k).

CT200h dimensions:
4,350 mm L x 1,765 mm W x 1,445 mm H


I can't see people spending more than $35k top on a CT200h sized tesla, and thats a luxury interior 4 door car, even given autopilot and so on.
...which means as an investor, i think there is a LOT of mileage in sticking with the S,X,3,Y lineup for quite a while. Tesla already sell every car they make, and thats without even including the Y. There are a LOT of jaguars and Mercedes and Aston Martins that should be replaced by the model S or X. There are a stupid number of audit and BMWs that should be replaced by the 3 or Y.

I would love to see a small form factor 'budget' tesla. I just think that without absolutely INSANE expansion, they are not going to hit the limits of S,3,X,Y sales for a long time, certainly a good few years.
It probably makes sense to really crunch the performance of batteries for a few more years before trying to make small form factor anyway. Plus more infrastructure in terms of charging points will be available then.
I agree with your points BUT they are already having INSANE expansion and the net ability to offer smaller form factors and still produce high profits is presented in your post. Here is the proof that your example is perfect:

A Lexus 200H is a Toyota Prius drivetrain married to a Toyota Corolla platform. At that $35,000 the Lexus 200h is well above 25% gm to Toyota. Their practice of using a totally different brand to enhance margins began in earnest in 1978
Lexus CT - Wikipedia
 
Interesting choice of words:
SmartSelect_20200115-084911_TD Ameritrade Mobile.jpg
 
You know that you can make deals related to that (selling calls), right? E.g. six months ago you actually could have made an agreement to be given free cash, yours to keep regardless of what happens with the stock, in exchange for giving someone the right to buy your stock at $350 in January. You can do the exact same sort of deal now, too. For the same ratio of current-price-to-future price (e.g. the right to buy your shares for $750 in July), people will pay you $21,18 per share (plus the $750 at that date if the stock exceeds that point). The $21,18 being yours to keep whether the stock hits $750 or not.

That's not a recommendation for taking such an option, of course; it's your call based on where you think the stock is headed, and I personally wouldn't go for that (without using the income to buy calls at a lower strike, at least ;) ) Contrarily, if you were scared at current prices, you could use that "free $21,18" to insure your shares against going below ~$395 for the next six months, or $485 for the next month.

I know I can sell calls against my common shares, but I'm not sure I want to...

What I can't do is sell puts, because I don't use margin and I'd need to have the cash amount sitting there in my account until the strike date.

Edit: Imagine last June, SP at $180, I sold Jan 2020 $400 strike calls - I'd be pretty pissed-off right now.

Buying calls I'm OK with because there is no downside other than the initial investment, selling, no... Even $1000 for this Jun would be risky IMO.

If the stock drops then I buy more, I'm 53 and although I'd like to retire now, I'm under no illusions that I'll probably work at least another 10 years.
 
Last edited: