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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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'In the middle of 2018, Pierre Ferragu, an analyst at New Street Research, came up with the Street’s most ambitious forecast at $530 a share. That price was topped for the first time this week. Mr Ferragu now argues that the company’s clear technology and product lead over other carmakers could justify a share price of as much as $2,000.'
 
Wow that’s some crazy non-diversification. I hope you realize how lucky you got. I can’t imagine someone doing that without plenty of access to insider information.
@Electroman
Read science fiction for the last 60 years
“What if this then that”
Imagine the future
Whom else best mirrors _your_ vision of the future
Watch a lot of different technologies
(Federal Labs Consortium gives awards to what they see are best for instance)
Be active in biotech for 50 years and learn to sequence by hand for one
(3-4 years can be done in a lazy few hours)
Realize singularities are punctuated and not evenly distributed
Look at uptake curves of technologies
It’s like we are walking on an exponential curve, flat behind us, vertical ahead, yet it keeps going
 
On the EV forum in Norway people are discussing the Ionity charging prices. And people are saying they considered various EVs but now comparing SuC and Ionity they say their next car will probably be a Tesla. And they say that perhaps the Tesla market valuation isn't as crazy as previously thought.
Ionity slutter med fastpris

Teslabjørn Nyland has been busy doing the numbers:


So it depends. If you pay drop in prices it is more expensive than diesel for some use cases. Expect the media to write about these outliers.

But people who charge a lot on Ionity or go on long trips will subscribe to get the price down. Then it's always better than driving a diesel car.

And in Denmark Ionity with a subscription is even cheaper than a Tesla Supercharger. Usually Tesla beats Ionity though - even with their subscription price.

And the winner: Home charging!

Ionities.png


Edit: Forgot the screenshot with the numbers. The "Tran" column is with an Ionity subscription.
 
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OK everyone. Stop whatever it is you're doing, and watch this. Sandy Monroe, and the guys at Autoline After Hours are fawning over Tesla and its Cybertruck like fans at a Beatles concert. Only the latest to join the ranks of Jim Cramer, Blackrock, ... you get the picture. Everyone's getting on board with Tesla, and anyone who isn't will be left standing in the cold ALONE.

"Elon Musk is a genius." Sandy Monroe

So I'm only a bit into it and I don't know the show or the guys, but when they started after Sandy Munro's 600k figures, insisting that the very idea of selling that many was ludicrous, Sandy pointed out the sales volume of the F150 and another truck, then the one guy said, "yeah, but that's trucks, we're talking EVs here" I started laughing so hard I started hyperventilating.

Sure, the dip isn't alone. A friend of mine doesn't like the cyber truck, not for its looks, but because "its an EV". People like that won't buy one, at least not at first. But this pretense that EVs operate in a niche market that is somehow separate from the rest of automotive. This insistence that Tesla sales are somehow coming at the expense of other EVs rather than legacy vehicles... It's ludicrous. No other way to put it. Whenever you point to the lost sales in a segment the naysayers will point to growth in a different one. And yet, automotive sales are down. Despite a growing population that would presumably have growing demand the sales stagnated around 2015 and have been falling since. And while Tesla isn't taking a big bite out of automotive sales, their sales do come at the expense of another vehicle sale.

While my Tesla purchase was not immediately at the expense (I was not in the market for a vehicle), it was a future cost. I will never buy a legacy vehicle again. And that's as good as it gets for the legacy makers: some EVs are sold through pull forward demand* so the drop is not immediately apparent, but it is still there.

The guy can laugh at Sandy Munro now, before the cybertruck is even on the market, and I doubt Tesla will initially make 600k per year. But he won't be laughing in five years...

* mostly when people say "pull forward" with respect to EVs they are talking about the effect of "tax break cliffs" but my point here is that some EV buyers are so enticed by the value proposition of an EV that they abandon their legacy vehicle before they would otherwise have purchased a new vehicle. And while I realize that my specific case is not that common (my income being so low that I literally had no tax burden so the tax break had zero impact on the timing of my purchase) I still think it is foolish to lump all pull forward demand in with tax incentives and ignore that EVs are just really that good.
 
Tesla dropping despite all my other stocks gaining is annoying. Lots of worrying about it being overvalued but if you take out the general market gains our run-up isn't all that crazy.

* mostly when people say "pull forward" with respect to EVs they are talking about the effect of "tax break cliffs" but my point here is that some EV buyers are so enticed by the value proposition of an EV that they abandon their legacy vehicle before they would otherwise have purchased a new vehicle. And while I realize that my specific case is not that common (my income being so low that I literally had no tax burden so the tax break had zero impact on the timing of my purchase) I still think it is foolish to lump all pull forward demand in with tax incentives and ignore that EVs are just really that good.
People who say that are straight up stupid. I won't mince words there. My Tesla is a few grand cheaper now than when I got it, even factoring in the $7500 tax credit. So in the net, my decision would have been exactly the same. (heck, I'd probably still pay my price but with no incentive because of how great the car is)

They won't sell 600k cybertrucks per year early on because they won't be able to make that many for several years. ;)
 
OK everyone. Stop whatever it is you're doing, and watch this. Sandy Monroe, and the guys at Autoline After Hours are fawning over Tesla and its Cybertruck like fans at a Beatles concert. Only the latest to join the ranks of Jim Cramer, Blackrock, ... you get the picture. Everyone's getting on board with Tesla, and anyone who isn't will be left standing in the cold ALONE.

"Elon Musk is a genius." Sandy Monroe

When I was listening to this

Sandy: well, Elon Musk...
Me: say it you son of a bitch!
Sandy: ... Is a genius.
 
Wow that’s some crazy non-diversification. I hope you realize how lucky you got. I can’t imagine someone doing that without plenty of access to insider information.
I'm also all-in since 2012, except for maybe 10% of my financial assets, as I have to keep some liquidity on the sides for a few non-recurring expenses.

I don't have access to insider info but do read TMC occasionally ;)

I've never owned a car, let alone an EV. I've never driven one regularly. I only ride a bicycle daily, the cheapest on can get at the local store. I did rent a BMW i3 once and that was last autumn.

My outsider information that justified the all-in strategy is simple:
  1. the Dumbest Experiment in History will have to end soon, otherwise the global economy will crash for a long, long time. Diversification cannot help.
  2. Apart from Tesla, no company is doing anything consequential in the transportation industry to stop the failed-but-still-ongoing experiment.
  3. The transportation industry remains the biggest culprit in this dumb experiment. Other industries should be changed drastically (going vegetarian for a start, going solar too, better HVAC could help, reinvesting in public services…) but switching to EV is still the priority IMO
  4. If Tesla fails – even today – I believe the industry would slow down its transition for a least a decade. If that happens, I won't care about my savings for very long. I'm in my mid 30s and I hope to find a job to live a simple life. My investment is to improve my future so I can't find a better way to supporting Tesla so it can further accelerate the transition (I mean that in a capitalist way: I believe neoliberalism is to blame for the current catastrophe, and hope to participate in the advent of a better system but that's another discussion).
Hope this makes sense to you.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Artful Dodger
You are aware that this link leads to a paywall? I doubt many people here subscribe to the FT. Can you provide a small recap of his arguments, without violating copyright. Thank you.
I can help. I found that among the jokes quoted in the article:

>Tesla is also facing serious competition for the first time, as bigger carmakers get serious about electric vehicles. “If it remains an overly competitive industry with too many players, all the advantages will be competed away,” said Mr Houchois.
 
A key question for Tesla’s margin as it grows sales volume going forward is what operating leverage can it achieve?
How much SG&A and R&D need to be added from 3Q19s annualised level of $3,720m to sustain double vehicle sales volume for example?

In 3Q19 vs 3Q17 SG&A was down 9% & R&D was flat despite 272% increase in deliveries & Model 3 launch in many new markets.
This shows there is very little true variable cost in SG&A & R&D aside from customer referral fees & sales bonuses (& both have been cut significantly).
Delivery network costs are mostly in Autos COGs, Service Centre costs are mostly in Service & Other COGs and Warranty Reserve (in Auto COGs). Tesla does not advertise, so there is little marketing costs to scale with scales.

I think most SG&A is likely regional and global HQ staff and functions, legal & consulting costs, management bonuses, rents, software teams, store network costs, website costs etc.
Very little of this cost base has to be scaled as Tesla launches new product lines & new factories. Tesla’s sales model is primarily free word of mouth & Twitter marketing & its sales channel is primarily online - so little marginal cost to expand sales. The stores and website Tesla does have can easily be leveraged to sell additional models within the same cost structure.

Tesla R&D is mostly future product design rather than maintaining/rebranding existing products (the norm R&D for most Auto OEMs) - so little R&D has to scale with new factories & products. Particularly as many components are designed in a modular way & shared between vehicles.

I think Tesla could potentially double sales with just a 20-30% increase in SG&A and R&D. The key uncertainty is whether Tesla has to start advertising or increase its referral bonuses to drive the higher demand.
On my estimates Tesla Model 3 delivered a $8.4k gross profit and $1.3 adjusted EBIT per car in 3Q19. If Tesla can double sales with just 25% increase in opex, this adjusted EBIT per Model 3 can increase to $4.0k.

I estimate GM cars made $0.7k gross profit (ex R&D) & -$2.8k adjusted EBIT in 2018. (GM disclosed 2018 variable profit/car for Trucks was 180% of the average, Crossover/SUVs, 50% & Cars 20%). GM make profit on Trucks & Crossovers but Cars help leverage fixed costs.
This also compares to 3Q19 adj. EBIT/car of $2.4k at Daimler ($8.3k gross profit) & $3.2k at BMW ($9.5k gross profit) which both benefit from SUV/Crossover mix. On a like for like product mix basis, Tesla is likely already significantly more profitable per car.

View attachment 501255

But operating leverage isn’t the only lever for Tesla to increase profit per car. Model Y profit should be ~$3k higher than Model 3 given higher ASP but flat COGs on new design improvements.
And Tesla will also continue to reduce like for like production costs/COGs. In 3Q19 I estimate Model 3s like for like mix adjusted COGs were reduced $5.2k year on year.
Because so many components in Teslas are designed from scratch (not sharing existing high volume components with ICE cars), many of these components (particularly batteries) will continue to benefit from > economies of scale & rapid early stage technology experience curves.
How much of Tesla’s further progress on COGs reduction will flow through to higher gross profit vs lower pricing depends on how it manages to ramp demand relative to production.

@DaveT has been expounding on this point in videos and in this forum for a while. Paraphrasing Dave: “We’ve hit an inflection point where gross profits now cover the cost of running the company”.

Thank you so much for putting numbers and analyses to it. This simple fact (that 70%-80% of gross profits from all additional sales will flow straight into net profits now that Tesla has hit scale), will catch many people off guard.

That’s just not normal in the Auto Industry. Tasha from Ark Invest predicts that soon many Tesla analysts will get very poor reviews, and be replaced with tech analysts.

P.S. I don’t know whether it’s true, but I remember shorts used to cry foul that some Supercharger costs were bundled into SG&A because they served an advertisement purpose.
 
People who say that Adam Jonas is

are all wrong.

If you think his job is to make realistic modeling and company valuation; write an "analysis" about it with probable outcomes and price targets, you are sadly mistaken.

His real job is to convince gullible investors to make certain moves (sell/buy/hold) that will benefit his employer.
In other words, he is a tool for market manipulation, and so is mass media with their reporting that is strong on sensationalism, but very weak on facts.

The price movement this morning proves that he is quite good at his job -- unfortunately.

Ok. Then he’s a crook, thief, and maliciously evil.