Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Shorts doing their part to convince people not to buy Tesla vehicles:

Tracie Wagman on Twitter

This is not new. They do this literally every day, sometimes with dozens of people per day - people considering buying Teslas and people who've had any sort of issue; they search Twitter, anyone who tags Elon or Tesla. It's horrible, and I wish more bulls/fans would allocate time to counter them, because they get away with scaring a huge number of people off - people who will then scare off their friends and families with the "stories that they heard".

Look at @ghost_scot's page - he's the ringleader (view in incognito mode - right click on the link):

Scot Work (@ghost_scot) | Twitter

One can check out their followers retweets to see who they're supposed to go after, or search for any of their hashtags:

Scot Work on Twitter

They organize via private chat. Recommend countering their targets with graphics from the Bloomberg survey, as well as revealing to them who TSLAQ is and what they're doing. Need to check in at least once a day.

Twitter banned him once, but he just re-registered with a new account, and despite Twitter affirming complaints against him for violating their platform manipulation policy, they never do anything about him.
 
Tesla Marketing very active today - letting others market Teslas that is.

On the EV forum in Norway people are discussing the Ionity charging prices. And people are saying they considered various EVs but now comparing SuC and Ionity they say their next car will probably be a Tesla. And they say that perhaps the Tesla market valuation isn't as crazy as previously thought.
Ionity slutter med fastpris

Then you have the Cybertruck. You can buy a replica already if you are eager enough:
Russian-Built Fake Tesla Cybertruck Looks Shockingly Good
This Is The First Tesla Cybertruck You Can Actually Buy
 
Ok, here comes the Market Manipulators, trying to avoid paying out all those options sitting at $500 (mods - we really need a ROFLOL emoji in this forum for the crap we have to report all the time...)

View attachment 501229

Yeah, apparently the pre-market drop was a "curious" timing of circulation of the decision by the NHTSA four days ago to open an investigation of the TSLAQ "petition" of sudden acceleration:

"On December 19, 2019, the Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) received a defect petition by email requesting a defect investigation of alleged sudden unintended acceleration in model year (MY) 2012 through 2019 Tesla Model S, MY 2016 through 2019 Tesla Model X, and MY 2018 through 2019 Tesla Model 3 vehicles. In support of his request, the petitioner cited 127 consumer complaints to NHTSA involving 123 unique vehicles. The reports include 110 crashes and 52 injuries. A copy of the petition will be added to the public file for this defect petition and ODI will evaluate the petitioner's allegations to determine if the petition should be granted or denied. If the petition is granted, ODI will open a defect investigation; if the petition is denied, ODI will publish a notice in the Federal Register."

Date Investigation Opened: Jan 13, 2020
Date Investigation Closed: Open​

So the NHTSA decided to open an investigation four days ago, today this was widely circulated by TSLAQ, combined with a bear attack, on options expiry day. ;)

Regarding "sudden unintended acceleration" I can only cite the opinion of SoylentBrown from Twitter, who has an engineering firm that works on Tesla matters with both institutional investors and shorts, and who has investigated dozens of such allegations in the past and never found a specific case where he'd even suspect Tesla to be at fault. It's usually floor mats and other objects, or simple human confusion that causes people to accelerate unintended, and then they mis-remember the accident.

Since the NHTSA has an interesting track record of investigating every single Tesla fire, it's no big surprise IMO that they opened an investigation here too. Tesla will from now on have input into the process and I expect this to be closed with no action, as many of the past investigations.
 
This is not new. They do this literally every day, sometimes with dozens of people per day - people considering buying Teslas and people who've had any sort of issue; they search Twitter, anyone who tags Elon or Tesla. It's horrible, and I wish more bulls/fans would allocate time to counter them, because they get away with scaring a huge number of people off - people who will then scare off their friends and families with the "stories that they heard".

Look at @ghost_scot's page - he's the ringleader (view in incognito mode - right click on the link):

Scot Work (@ghost_scot) | Twitter

One can check out their followers retweets to see who they're supposed to go after, or search for any of their hashtags:

Scot Work on Twitter

They organize via private chat. Recommend countering their targets with graphics from the Bloomberg survey, as well as revealing to them who TSLAQ is and what they're doing. Need to check in at least once a day.

Twitter banned him once, but he just re-registered with a new account, and despite Twitter affirming complaints against him for violating their platform manipulation policy, they never do anything about him.

There's this bot account that claims to identify such intimidation and post a boiler-plate guide, but I don't know if it actually works...

TSLAQ Alertbot (@TslaqA) | Twitter
 
Here we go again.

NHTSA petition to formally seek defects causing (claiming) sudden unintended acceleration. Will update if I can find the Reuters hit piece.

Second-fakest TSLAQ conspiracy theory ever (none can ever beat Whompy Wheels ;) ). Almost every single mass-market car out there has sudden unintended acceleration accusations against it, because people accidentally hit the pedal to hard when parking and then blame it on the car. Seriously, right now go try it - google "unintended acceleration <model name>".

Why does NHTSA do this, though? Why publicly announce investigations into things you haven't investigated yet? Are they trying to scare people away and hurt the stock?
 
Last edited:
There's this bot account that claims to identify such intimidation and post a boiler-plate guide, but I don't know if it actually works...

TSLAQ Alertbot (@TslaqA) | Twitter

Used to. But Twitter stopped it; they have a policy against bots contacting people who haven't contacted them first. Now it just focuses on adding positive noise to their hashtag collection. But Twitter deemphasizes its retweets because it's a bot (liking and/or retweeting them helps).
 
Yeah, apparently the pre-market drop was a "curious" timing of circulation of the decision by the NHTSA four days ago to open an investigation of the TSLAQ "petition" of sudden acceleration:

"On December 19, 2019, the Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) received a defect petition by email requesting a defect investigation of alleged sudden unintended acceleration in model year (MY) 2012 through 2019 Tesla Model S, MY 2016 through 2019 Tesla Model X, and MY 2018 through 2019 Tesla Model 3 vehicles. In support of his request, the petitioner cited 127 consumer complaints to NHTSA involving 123 unique vehicles. The reports include 110 crashes and 52 injuries. A copy of the petition will be added to the public file for this defect petition and ODI will evaluate the petitioner's allegations to determine if the petition should be granted or denied. If the petition is granted, ODI will open a defect investigation; if the petition is denied, ODI will publish a notice in the Federal Register."

Date Investigation Opened: Jan 13, 2020
Date Investigation Closed: Open​

So the NHTSA decided to open an investigation four days ago, today this was widely circulated by TSLAQ, combined with a bear attack, on options expiry day. ;)

Regarding "sudden unintended acceleration" I can only cite the opinion of SoylentBrown from Twitter, who has an engineering firm that works on Tesla matters with both institutional investors and shorts, and who has investigated dozens of such allegations in the past and never found a specific case where he'd even suspect Tesla to be at fault. It's usually floor mats and other objects, or simple human confusion that causes people to accelerate unintended, and then they mis-remember the accident.

Since the NHTSA has an interesting track record of investigating every single Tesla fire, it's no big surprise IMO that they opened an investigation here too. Tesla will from now on have input into the process and I expect this to be closed with no action, as many of the past investigations.

Odds that this was filed by Aaron Greenspan greater than 90%? (Who likely has never driven a Tesla but does hold a Tesla short position)
 
A key question for Tesla’s margin as it grows sales volume going forward is what operating leverage can it achieve?
How much SG&A and R&D need to be added from 3Q19s annualised level of $3,720m to sustain double vehicle sales volume for example?

In 3Q19 vs 3Q17 SG&A was down 9% & R&D was flat despite 272% increase in deliveries & Model 3 launch in many new markets.
This shows there is very little true variable cost in SG&A & R&D aside from customer referral fees & sales bonuses (& both have been cut significantly).
Delivery network costs are mostly in Autos COGs, Service Centre costs are mostly in Service & Other COGs and Warranty Reserve (in Auto COGs). Tesla does not advertise, so there is little marketing costs to scale with scales.

I think most SG&A is likely regional and global HQ staff and functions, legal & consulting costs, management bonuses, rents, software teams, store network costs, website costs etc.
Very little of this cost base has to be scaled as Tesla launches new product lines & new factories. Tesla’s sales model is primarily free word of mouth & Twitter marketing & its sales channel is primarily online - so little marginal cost to expand sales. The stores and website Tesla does have can easily be leveraged to sell additional models within the same cost structure.

Tesla R&D is mostly future product design rather than maintaining/rebranding existing products (the norm R&D for most Auto OEMs) - so little R&D has to scale with new factories & products. Particularly as many components are designed in a modular way & shared between vehicles.

I think Tesla could potentially double sales with just a 20-30% increase in SG&A and R&D. The key uncertainty is whether Tesla has to start advertising or increase its referral bonuses to drive the higher demand.
On my estimates Tesla Model 3 delivered a $8.4k gross profit and $1.3 adjusted EBIT per car in 3Q19. If Tesla can double sales with just 25% increase in opex, this adjusted EBIT per Model 3 can increase to $4.0k.

I estimate GM cars made $0.7k gross profit (ex R&D) & -$2.8k adjusted EBIT in 2018. (GM disclosed 2018 variable profit/car for Trucks was 180% of the average, Crossover/SUVs, 50% & Cars 20%). GM make profit on Trucks & Crossovers but Cars help leverage fixed costs.
This also compares to 3Q19 adj. EBIT/car of $2.4k at Daimler ($8.3k gross profit) & $3.2k at BMW ($9.5k gross profit) which both benefit from SUV/Crossover mix. On a like for like product mix basis, Tesla is likely already significantly more profitable per car.

upload_2020-1-17_13-43-52.png


But operating leverage isn’t the only lever for Tesla to increase profit per car. Model Y profit should be ~$3k higher than Model 3 given higher ASP but flat COGs on new design improvements.
And Tesla will also continue to reduce like for like production costs/COGs. In 3Q19 I estimate Model 3s like for like mix adjusted COGs were reduced $5.2k year on year.
Because so many components in Teslas are designed from scratch (not sharing existing high volume components with ICE cars), many of these components (particularly batteries) will continue to benefit from > economies of scale & rapid early stage technology experience curves.
How much of Tesla’s further progress on COGs reduction will flow through to higher gross profit vs lower pricing depends on how it manages to ramp demand relative to production.
 
A key question for Tesla’s margin as it grows sales volume going forward is what operating leverage can it achieve?
How much SG&A and R&D need to be added from 3Q19s annualised level of $3,720m to sustain double vehicle sales volume for example?

In 3Q19 vs 3Q17 SG&A was down 9% & R&D was flat despite 272% increase in deliveries & Model 3 launch in many new markets.
This shows there is very little true variable cost in SG&A & R&D aside from customer referral fees & sales bonuses (& both have been cut significantly).
Delivery network costs are mostly in Autos COGs, Service Centre costs are mostly in Service & Other COGs and Warranty Reserve (in Auto COGs). Tesla does not advertise, so there is little marketing costs to scale with scales.

I think most SG&A is likely regional and global HQ staff and functions, legal & consulting costs, management bonuses, rents, software teams, store network costs, website costs etc.
Very little of this cost base has to be scaled as Tesla launches new product lines & new factories. Tesla’s sales model is primarily free word of mouth & Twitter marketing & its sales channel is primarily online - so little marginal cost to expand sales. The stores and website Tesla does have can easily be leveraged to sell additional models within the same cost structure.

Tesla R&D is mostly future product design rather than maintaining/rebranding existing products (the norm R&D for most Auto OEMs) - so little R&D has to scale with new factories & products. Particularly as many components are designed in a modular way & shared between vehicles.

I think Tesla could potentially double sales with just a 20-30% increase in SG&A and R&D. The key uncertainty is whether Tesla has to start advertising or increase its referral bonuses to drive the higher demand.
On my estimates Tesla Model 3 delivered a $8.4k gross profit and $1.3 adjusted EBIT per car in 3Q19. If Tesla can double sales with just 25% increase in opex, this adjusted EBIT per Model 3 can increase to $4.0k.

I estimate GM cars made $0.7k gross profit (ex R&D) & -$2.8k adjusted EBIT in 2018. (GM disclosed 2018 variable profit/car for Trucks was 180% of the average, Crossover/SUVs, 50% & Cars 20%). GM make profit on Trucks & Crossovers but Cars help leverage fixed costs.
This also compares to 3Q19 adj. EBIT/car of $2.4k at Daimler ($8.3k gross profit) & $3.2k at BMW ($9.5k gross profit) which both benefit from SUV/Crossover mix. On a like for like product mix basis, Tesla is likely already significantly more profitable per car.

View attachment 501255

But operating leverage isn’t the only lever for Tesla to increase profit per car. Model Y profit should be ~$3k higher than Model 3 given higher ASP but flat COGs on new design improvements.
And Tesla will also continue to reduce like for like production costs/COGs. In 3Q19 I estimate Model 3s like for like mix adjusted COGs were reduced $5.2k year on year.
Because so many components in Teslas are designed from scratch (not sharing existing high volume components with ICE cars), many of these components (particularly batteries) will continue to benefit from > economies of scale & rapid early stage technology experience curves.
How much of Tesla’s further progress on COGs reduction will flow through to higher gross profit vs lower pricing depends on how it manages to ramp demand relative to production.

Do you know if any Supercharger costs are also part of OPEX? I never looked into where Tesla accounts for these on their income statement.
 
Second-fakest TSLAQ conspiracy theory ever (none can ever beat Whompy Wheels ;) ). Almost every single mass-market car out there has sudden unintended acceleration accusations against it, because people accidentally hit the pedal to hard when parking and then blame it on the car. Seriously, right now go try it - google "unintended acceleration <model name>".

Why does NHTSA do this, though? Why publicly announce investigations into things you haven't investigated yet? Are they trying to scare people away and hurt the stock?
Almost makes one think the NHTSA was run by TSLAQ, doesn't it.

And talking heads just thrive on the manipulation by those seeking to profit from hurting Tesla.

Thanks for the work you do on twitter. I saw your reply to Quintanilla, whom I believe is fair (followed him for many years.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thumper and Drax7
Do you know if any Supercharger costs are also part of OPEX? I never looked into where Tesla accounts for these on their income statement.

They have 3 different types of revenue here and may account for them all differently:
1) Customer supercharging one off purchases (Not clear if this is included in Auto revenue or Service revenue - likely low gross margin revenue).
2) Customer supercharging from unlimited free supercharging offer paid out of deferred revenue reserve (Tesla's deferred revenue should be at third-party equivalent pricing/gross margins, so likely low gross margin revenue). So these should be in Auto COGs as its really just equivalent to a price reduction offer.
3) Customer supercharging from unlimited free supercharging as customer referral rewards (it is possible Tesla record these costs at SG&A sales costs in which case gross margin could be 100%, but equally the accounting could be the same as for 2).

As Tesla does not give free unlimited supercharging on Model 3 anymore, wherever these costs are currently booked, they should not scale as fast as sales volume.
 
So they’ve collected all cases of people accidently stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake, put it in a petition and the NHTSA has decided to look at it. Big nothingburger. Nothing will come out of it.

FUD, it's FUD - helps shorty, helps MM's, delays the phase-out of fossil-fuels by a day, an hour, who knows, but that's what they want.

The people doing this are the absolute scum of the earth.