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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Exactly. I question if many of these fines even come to fruition. With almost every other car company other than Tesla facing fines, I think there will be a lot of pressure to delay those fines. It negatively affects too many companies/workers/voters.

Yes, this could actually become an issue.

We should not cheer for maximum cost this or even next year. Best case scenario the fees should be high enough to be a significant cost that ICE manufacturers can't ignore but not high enough that they can get workers and local politicians to revolt against it.
 
More BS from Ihor. Sounds like a short-squeeze is developing and he's trying to soften the blow for his clients.

Read your brokerage agreements, people. AFAIK, they will typically give your broker the right to lend your shares as long as they are in an account that qualifies as a margin account. And doesn't everyone have a margin account (even if not using margin)?

Is it time to recall our shares? :)

I regularly adjust my TSLA GTC (Good Till Canceled) sell order with a limit nearly twice the current price. My brokerage tells me that prevents them from lending my shares to short-sellers, even though I have a margin account.

Others might consider doing the same, although some brokers may require a tighter limit. :cool:
 
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More BS from Ihor. Sounds like a short-squeeze is developing and he's trying to soften the blow for his clients.

Read your brokerage agreements, people. AFAIK, they will typically give your broker the right to lend your shares as long as they are in an account that qualifies as a margin account. And doesn't everyone have a margin account (even if not using margin)?

Is it time to recall our shares? :)

Don't know if this is BS. My Broker (BINCK BANK, part of SAXO BANK) is very transparent about it: your shares are by default NOT available for lending, but you can activate "lend out my shares" at any time for a small gain (current average 2,1% yearly).

When lent out, you have not voting rights. You however do receive dividends.

The risk is small: in principle, if the Broker would declare bankrupcy, they cannot give you your shares back, but they are insured with collateral so that in this case you are paid the equivalent in cash.

The fineprint continues along the lines of: "if the above payout to our customers in case of bankrupcy exceeds our collateral, you might lose money in the end".

So hell no, I'm not lending out my shares. They advertise it like it's 100% risk free money, when it's not. (99,9% risk free maybe? Still, I only want to have worry about one black swan event (Tesla's demise), not two)
 
One of the great things about owning a Tesla is that although the initial price isn't low, driving it is practically free. Having a subscription model for FSD means that you're paying through the nose forever. (I stopped using Adobe too, there is plenty of other software out there.)

Well you might have stopped using Adobe. And lots of low end users loves to hate on them. But their stock has gone from $100 to $350 and their revenue $4 billion to $11 billion in the few years since they started the subscription model.

As a car buyer I would prefer a $30k Tesla with $0 monthly costs but that's not gonna happen.

I just googled and saw that the average new buyer in the US kept the car for around 8 years. At $7k that would be around $70-75 per month. And you have to come up with the money when you buy.

You are not gonna get a significant sum back from that if you sell your car after 8 years.
 
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I figure the dip is people who wished they had sold a little yesterday taking advantage of the pop this morning. Seems like whoever caused that pop would buy more at this price. (just thinking out loud)
More BS from Ihor. Sounds like a short-squeeze is developing and he's trying to soften the blow for his clients.

Read your brokerage agreements, people. AFAIK, they will typically give your broker the right to lend your shares as long as they are in an account that qualifies as a margin account. And doesn't everyone have a margin account (even if not using margin)?

Is it time to recall our shares? :)
Hmm, I did cut my margin to zero to balance out some of my Q4 ER options risk. With robinhood you can downgrade and remove margin. You only have margin on the Gold account that costs 5 bucks a month.

Strongly disagree, not listening to other opinions and positions is never a good idea, not in politics not in business or private life and not in investing. TESLAQ made a big mistake by isolating themselves in an echo chamber with a twitter block list and that was for many not a good idea. Lets not repeat that mistake.

Thats does not mean you have to agree or disagree to Ihor or me but having more information is just helpful to build a meaningful opinion.

Beside of that Ihor is a good source of information in a variety of aspects which again does not mean I agree or disagree to all what he said.
It's painful, but that's one of the two reasons I dip into the TSLAQ crowd on twitter here and there. I owe it to myself to ask if any of their points are valid and consider if they are correct.

The other reason is to laugh at their insanity.
 
Well you might have stopped using Adobe. And lots of low end users loves to hate on them. But their stock has gone from $100 to $350 and their revenue $4 billion to $11 billion in the few years since they started the subscription model.

As a car buyer I would prefer a $30k Tesla with $0 monthly costs but that's not gonna happen.

I just googled and saw that the average new buyer in the US kept the car for around 8 years. At $7k that would be around $70-75 per month. And you have to come up with the money when you buy.

You are not gonna get a significant sum back from that if you sell your car after 8 years.
I disagree with the last sentence. I think an 8-year-old Tesla with FSD will be worth significantly more than one without FSD.
 
First analyst chiming in on GF3 coronavirus disruption:

Wedbush Doesn't See Major Tesla (TSLA) China Production Disruption Related to Coronavirus Outbreak

Wedbush analyst Daniel Ives weighed in on Tesla related to China risks with the Giga 3 production amid the coronavirus outbreak.​

"... as of now we do not see any major disruption on the horizon for Tesla post Chinese New Year other than a timing issue (pushing back a few weeks) and are not overly concerned that the China bull thesis takes a major dent despite the tragic coronavirus outbreak."​

On demand, Ives said:

"we could see roughly 6k to 10k Chinese made Tesla units based on our analysis/timing of deliveries that push from the March quarter to the June quarter in a worst case scenario which is not significantly moving the needle on the China demand thesis for the year."
The analyst reiterated a Neutral rating and $550 price target on TSLA.​

BTW., 6k-10k for Q1 is significantly below the estimates here, so maybe our expectations of 10k-15k are a bit high.
 
Don't know if this is BS. My Broker (BINCK BANK, part of SAXO BANK) is very transparent about it: your shares are by default NOT available for lending, but you can activate "lend out my shares" at any time for a small gain (current average 2,1% yearly).

I have some of my TSLA shares in an ALLY account, and TWICE in the past 2 months they have emailed me asking to lend out my TSLA shares. Yeh, right! :rolleyes: I just thought is was very odd with their timing, as they have never asked me before.
 
PSA is €928m I suspect. :D

Interestingly the PSA fines appear to be lower in this estimate than in @Prunesquallor's?

By 2021 the PSA-FCA merger will probably have closed already, so Tesla's EU ZEV credits pool might increase to 2.4+0.93=€3.33b - or $3.6b.

Even if FCA revives the Fiat500e for the "supercredits", that's still a substantial pool for Tesla to deliver into.

@Fact Checking
I would interpret the PA Consulting numbers with caution. Their PSA penalties looked very low to me given what I saw when I tried to assess a FCA-PSA-Tesla emissions pool, so I've tried to reverse-engineer their analysis. Also, keep in mind this is somewhat different than the pooling assessment, as PA is looking at non-pooling advancements that existing manufacturers might make/have made going into 2021 that would replace portions of their ICE fleets.

In the PA PSA assessment:

1) The 2018 PSA CO2 emission level (113.9 g/km), 2021 emission target (91.6 g/km) and EU fleet size (2.47 million) appear consistent with the EU references I used (fleet size was backed out of their 2021 penalty prediction and 2021 emission prediction).

2) PA assumes VERY aggressive PSA progress in emissions - a reduction to 95.6 g/km by 2021. This is a reduction of ~80% of their 2018 emissions violation. Given THAT assumption, their penalty computation (€938 million) appears correct. If their emissions remain at 2018 levels, I get a penalty of €5.25 billion.

3) This progress appears much more aggressive than any other manufacturers (Figure 7 in the report).

4) Paradoxically, the report notes that PSA emissions have actually been getting worse in recent years (Page 9 in the report).

5) When I run my model, it appears that to get this level of reduction, the equivalent of 340,000 ZEVs would have to replace ICE vehicles in the PSA fleet in 2021.

So what is the basis for this aggressive CO2 reduction prediction?
In the "Methodology" section of the PA report (p.41):
"To forecast CO2 emissions, targets and fines, we used a proprietary analysis based on public data and our industry expertise." This seems to include predictions of average fleet weight, powertrain type, car segment which feeds into emission prediction. Obviously, this is opaque to us.

Additionally, in their "Analysis in Detail" of PSA they state:
"PSA’s new platforms, CME and EMP2, give them more flexibility in their production lines, enabling them to manufacture petrol, diesel or electric vehicles from the same facility. This will help them ramp up production and adapt to changes in technology."
I know nothing of these platforms, so can't assess their potential. Others should chime in.

Also:
"The Group has made progress in the electrification of its portfolio and aims to only offer fully-electric (PHEV & BEV) models by 2025, with the first on sale from 2020. By the end of 2020, all brands will have one BEV car available. We expect PHEV and BEV to make up 10 per cent of its sales in Europe by 2021." That would be ~250,000 PSA PHEV/BEVs by next year (see comment below).

Final note. It's not clear to me PA Consulting is using Super-Credits correctly in their calculations. On page 43 they acknowledge they account for Super-Credits, but do not point out the important fact that Super-Credits only apply to the first 7.5 g/km of emission reduction. Omitting that would make their results optimistic and would indicate they could indeed meet those 2021 emissions with 250,000 ZEVs rather than my calculation of 340,000.
 
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A nice chart in today's WSJ, and an article about option activity

Tesla Poised for Dramatic Move After Earnings, Options Show

highlights:
"Options traders are forecasting as much as an 11.8% move in Tesla’s shares over the two sessions following its earnings report. That is a bigger swing than the average 9.5% move over the past eight quarters, according to data provider Trade Alert."

"The projections are based on an options trade called a straddle, which entails acquiring both bullish and bearish options contracts that allow investors to buy or sell stock at a specific price. The trade doesn’t measure the direction of the swing, just the size."

"The recent options activity reflects the dramatically different views investors tend to take on the company’s share price."

"Some popular options trades have recently included bearish put options that would pay out if Tesla shares drop to less than half their current level and hit $200 over the next year, as well as bullish call options tied to a rally to as high as $1,015, Trade Alert data show."



upload_2020-1-28_11-50-47.png
 
First analyst chiming in on GF3 coronavirus disruption:

Wedbush Doesn't See Major Tesla (TSLA) China Production Disruption Related to Coronavirus Outbreak

Wedbush analyst Daniel Ives weighed in on Tesla related to China risks with the Giga 3 production amid the coronavirus outbreak.​

"... as of now we do not see any major disruption on the horizon for Tesla post Chinese New Year other than a timing issue (pushing back a few weeks) and are not overly concerned that the China bull thesis takes a major dent despite the tragic coronavirus outbreak."​

On demand, Ives said:

"we could see roughly 6k to 10k Chinese made Tesla units based on our analysis/timing of deliveries that push from the March quarter to the June quarter in a worst case scenario which is not significantly moving the needle on the China demand thesis for the year."
The analyst reiterated a Neutral rating and $550 price target on TSLA.​

BTW., 6k-10k for Q1 is significantly below the estimates here, so maybe our expectations of 10k-15k are a bit high.

I think 10k to 15k Made-In-China Model 3s is high for Q1. If we assume the 1k per week was a test spike rate, not a sustained rate, then I think it safe to assume an average rate of 1k a week spread over Q1. Add in 3 weeks downtime for the holiday + extension due to virus, and that narrows to about 10 weeks of production. So, I'm going to estimate 7k to 10k Model 3s made in China in Q1.

I, however, will point out that my estimates should carry less weight when compared to the more experienced and knowledgeable members here.
 
As an illustrative case, I decided to make a graph comparing 3 different options strategies over the same timeperiod with roughly the same cost basis (you may need to enlarge it to see the details). I've added guidelines and extra colour enhancements to help amplify the differences.

Newb question Karen: what is the X axis in your graphs? Time? In what increments? Just curious, as I have NO intention of going down the options rabbit hole. :p
 
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Read your brokerage agreements, people. AFAIK, they will typically give your broker the right to lend your shares as long as they are in an account that qualifies as a margin account. And doesn't everyone have a margin account (even if not using margin)?
Not everyone does, but more importantly, it depends on the broker. With Fidelity, each trade in a margin account can be made as margin or cash. IIUC only margin purchased shares can be lent.
 
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I regularly adjust my TSLA GTC (Good Till Canceled) sell order with a limit nearly twice the current price. My brokerage tells me that prevents them from lending my shares to short-sellers, even though I have a margin count.

Others might consider doing the same, although some brokers may require a tighter limit. :cool:

I wonder how they handle it if they have already lent your shares out when you place the GTC order? I just put some of my shares under a GTC $2200 Sell Limit order.
 
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A nice chart in today's WSJ, and an article about option activity

Tesla Poised for Dramatic Move After Earnings, Options Show

"Some popular options trades have recently included bearish put options that would pay out if Tesla shares drop to less than half their current level and hit $200 over the next year, as well as bullish call options tied to a rally to as high as $1,015, Trade Alert data show."



View attachment 505115
I have two contracts at $690 for 2/21. I'm expecting them to expire worthless, but for the cost it seemed an ok gamble in the event that earnings beat by a solid amount and we see this mythological short squeeze. Fortunately my other handful of options are much more reasonable. I grabbed a $600 1/15/2021 back in December that is currently my prize jewel.
 
I regularly adjust my TSLA GTC (Good Till Canceled) sell order with a limit nearly twice the current price. My brokerage tells me that prevents them from lending my shares to short-sellers, even though I have a margin count.

Others might consider doing the same, although some brokers may require a tighter limit. :cool:

No kidding! Mine only accepts 15% above/under actual price.