Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
This post speaks to me a great deal. I currently work on the assembly line for one of the big three in Ontario, Canada and as the lone Tesla driver in the entire plant (99% sure lol). From the inside looking out, people don't see what's coming. Like you mentioned with solar, people I talk to day to day just see EV's as an annoyance and brush them off as stereotypical "neutered" green-mobiles. The writing really is on the wall for legacy OEM's because everything Sandy Munro has referenced with regards to OEM's retrofitting to EV's and the capital cost's involved is real. I thank the heavens (and Elon :p) I got my initial purchase of shares in April of Last year after taking a test drive in a relative's Model 3. Been WOKE ever since (P3D- purchased in August) three more tranches this year and i am holding long and strong.

Also this was released Tuesday, but I refer everyone to this clip from Joe Rogan's podcast with Lex Fridman and his learnings from Elon, if Cathie Wood's words don't soothe the selling itch, take a listen and enjoy WHO we're getting behind.

P.S I think Lex is referring to institutional investors :p

Great first post. Welcome to the club; keep us informed if you start to notice the mood change there!
 
What amazes me most is how many times in one week can one share change hands?

I tend to believe that as soon as volume drops, SP should shoot back up but for now, some just keep selling.

I do believe that there was a fanciful idea, might have been from Richard Feynman, that the universe might actually consist of only one electron, which is travelling through time so as to be everywhere at once to make up everything we observe.

A bit the same idea...

So interesting day, indeed! But volatility brings opportunity...
- HODL account dropped $130k since $968, meh, so what...
- cashing out my options Monday wasn't such a bad idea after all - although I left $100k on the table had I sold Tuesday, they're worth less after today - good learning experience for the future
- rebought the 34 shares I sold on Tuesday for $925 at $750 (which seemed the bottom at that moment)
- bought 10 x $1000 strike lottery tickets, $3 per contract for Friday, fully in the knowledge that I probably won't see that money back
- still hold a sold put for Friday for $905, will let that exercise and then sell covered calls against those until sold

Be greedy when others are fearful, eh?

And remember, nothing changed fundamentally from this time last week, if anything we potentially have GF5 about to be announced!
 
Regarding 2019Q4, at the end of the segment Dan said that all of their net income came from tax credits. That’s not what I recall - in fact the subsidies were described by Tesla as very small. Cathie didn’t dispute Dan’s comment but did say that ARK didn’t even factor in EV subsidies in to their work.

Am I not understanding what was said or misreading the Q4 report?

There were regulator credits of $133M, while GAAP profit was only $105M. So in that sense it was. (non-GAAP profit was $386M.)
 
Regarding 2019Q4, at the end of the segment Dan said that all of their net income came from tax credits. That’s not what I recall - in fact the subsidies were described by Tesla as very small. Cathie didn’t dispute Dan’s comment but did say that ARK didn’t even factor in EV subsidies in to their work.

Am I not understanding what was said or misreading the Q4 report?

Does it matter? The tax credits are real, cold hard cash. It is valid revenue. Cathie ignored the comment because the answer is “so what?”.
 
if you Google "TL0" you will get a quote in Euros. That's "tee el zero".

There's two European exchanges that matter to Tesla pricing: Frankfurt (FWB) opens at 8am, Xetra (XETR) at 9am, both are German exchanges/platforms and the servers of both are located in Frankfurt btw.

Symbol on both is TL0. (Zero at the end.)

Tesla indeed gained in Frankfurt trading in the first 25 minutes, €678, $745.
 
Last edited:
Regarding 2019Q4, at the end of the segment Dan said that all of their net income came from tax credits. That’s not what I recall - in fact the subsidies were described by Tesla as very small. Cathie didn’t dispute Dan’s comment but did say that ARK didn’t even factor in EV subsidies in to their work.

Am I not understanding what was said or misreading the Q4 report?

Lol, you missed the obvious 3rd possibility: Dan is LYING.

"EV subsidies are propping up *sugar*" is a long-standing denier/short trope. Most people are simply too lazy to spend 30s of Googling to find the truth.

"A lie can travel half-way round the world before the truth gets its boots on."
-- Mark Twain

Seems like you missed more than one thing. ;)

Cheers!
 
There's two European exchanges that matter to Tesla pricing: Frankfurt (FWB) opens at 8am, Xetra (XTRA) at 9am, both are German exchanges and the servers of both are located in Frankfurt btw.

Symbol on both is TL0. (Zero at the end.)

Tesla indeed gained in Frankfurt trading in the first 25 minutes, €678, $745.
Do you happen to know exactly how Tradegate (Tradegate Exchange) plays into that?
Volume today already at 13234 there.
 
Oz Law seems remarkably similar to US law on this, so I was happy to hear either US or Australian response. Responses have been useful. Until now I thought all my TSLA shares were equal. Now I realise I must have batches of shares, each batch with a purchase time stamp and a price per share.

At some point I may learn how to selectively sell shares from the earliest or latest batch. I haven’t come across that option yet in IG.com’s interface.

Australian govt site:
Investing and tax - Moneysmart.gov.au

If you sell an investment for more than the cost to acquire it, you make a capital gain. You need to include all capital gains in your tax return in the year you sell the investment. Capital gains are taxed at your marginal rate.

If you've held the investment for more than 12 months, you're only taxed on half of the capital gain. The is known as the capital gains tax (CGT) discount.

Talk to an (Australian) accountant .... this would be common and relatively straight forward.... (I think)
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Carl Raymond
Fantastic graph.

You can grab the best, most uptodate data from here:


They also include source links - but those are usually Chinese.

Note that the latest day, February 5 in this case, is updated live - i.e. provinces that have not reported yet will be listed with yesterday's data - which can be confusing.

Update to @KarenRei, and to those preferring text summaries, to get the very latest data just from Hubei, and to see the reporting density of previous periods (Hubei was not reported on all days), you can also run this short shell script:

Code:
wget -q -O - https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/ \
             https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/01/timeline-coronavirus-epidemic/ | \
             html2text | \
             grep -iE 'hubei|February \*\*\*|January \*\*\*'

*** 6 February ***
*** 5 February ***
    * 22:10: 2,987 new cases and 70 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 4 February ***
    * 22:13: 3,156 new cases and 65 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 3 February ***
    * 22:10: 2,345 new cases and 64 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 2 February ***
    * 22:08: 2,103 new cases and 56 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 1 February ***
    * 22:10: 1,921 new cases and 45 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 31 January ***
    * 22:20: 1,347 new cases and 45 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 30 January ***
    * 22:40: 903 new cases and 42 new deaths in Hubei province, China. (Source)
    * 15:45: 317 new cases in Hubei province, China. (Source)
*** 29 January ***
    * 22:24: 1,032 new cases and 37 new deaths in Hubei province, China.
*** 28 January ***
    * 22:32: 840 new cases and 25 new deaths in Hubei province, China. (Source)
    * 00:53: Hubei province reports 1,291 new cases and 24 new deaths. (Source)
*** 27 January ***
*** 26 January ***
    * 23:05: 371 new cases and 24 new deaths in Hubei province, China. (Source)
*** 25 January ***
    * 23:05: Hubei province reports 292 new cases and 11 new deaths. (Source)
    * 15:40: 31 new cases and 1 new death in the city of Huangshi in Hubei
    * 06:05: 1 new death in Hubei province at 7 a.m. Authorities had previously
      confirmed 39 fatalities in Hubei province up until midnight, plus 2 other
*** 24 January ***
    * 20:01: 180 new cases and 15 new deaths in Hubei province, China. (Source)
    * 01:06: 105 new cases in Hubei province. (Source)
*** 23 January ***
*** 22 January ***
    * 14:39: 69 new cases and 8 new deaths in Hubei province, China (Source)
      to Hubei province, which includes the city of Wuhan. Two new cases have
*** 21 January ***

Just paste the first 4 lines into a Unix shell as-is, on a system that also has wget and html2text installed.

From the text output we can see that reporting up to January 27 was not reliable but improved afterwards. Last night's update from Hubei also showed the first drop in new infections, which might be the first sign of this particular outbreak peaking.

If we assume that like with SARS the run-up will be similar in duration to the ramp-down, then in about 17 days we should see new cases drop below 1,000, and the Hubei quarantine might be (partially and symbolically) lifted in about 30 days - end of February.

In terms of GF3 impact and Shanghai:

Code:
wget -q -O - https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/ \
             https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/01/timeline-coronavirus-epidemic/ | \
             html2text | \
             grep -iE 'shanghai|February \*\*\*|January \*\*\*'

*** 6 February ***
*** 5 February ***
    * 23:41: 11 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 06:12: 10 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 4 February ***
    * 23:58: 14 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 06:14: 11 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 3 February ***
    * 23:59: 5 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 06:40: 10 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 2 February ***
    * 23:57: 11 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 06:05: 5 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 1 February ***
    * 23:30: 8 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 05:56: 16 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 00:04: 18 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 31 January ***
    * 05:30: 7 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 00:24: 16 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 30 January ***
    * 06:25: 11 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 00:14: 5 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 29 January ***
    * 07:20: 16 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 00:05: 14 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 28 January ***
    * 00:04: 13 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 27 January ***
    * 00:17: 13 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 26 January ***
*** 25 January ***
    * 23:55: 7 new cases and 1 new death in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 00:15: 13 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
*** 24 January ***
*** 23 January ***
    * 23:58: 4 new cases in Shanghai. (Source)
    * 01:00: 7 new cases in Shanghai, one of whom is in critical condition.
*** 22 January ***
    * 03:50: 3 new cases in Shanghai, China (Source)
*** 21 January ***

Shanghai reporting was spotty up to January 27 too. They appear to have peaked on February 1 but are on a slow downward trajectory since then. The multiple entries are I believe updates within the same day, i.e. the best approximation is to take the largest value, as these are Weibo messages from different official (looking...) sources.

I'd say we can consider the Shanghai outbreak contained once it drops back to single digits new cases, and below 5 in particular. With precautions and continuous monitoring GF3 should be safe to open on February 10 (next Monday).
 
Who are the biggest bears birds on TMC?
FTFY
May have to get rid of my avatar, it seems :(.

To avoid missing the topic, here's my TSLA-record:
Code:
05.02.2020     Kauf                         20 Stück    735,10 EUR
08.01.2020     Kauf                         15 Stück    417,25 EUR
23.12.2019     Kauf                          5 Stück    368,45 EUR
25.11.2019     Kauf                         10 Stück    310,45 EUR
21.10.2019     Kauf                         10 Stück    227,10 EUR
14.10.2019     Übertrag Eingang             55 Stück
13.05.2019     Kauf                          5 Stück    200,40 EUR
26.04.2019     Kauf                         10 Stück    217,50 EUR
15.03.2019     Kauf                         10 Stück    242,33 EUR
04.03.2019     Kauf                         10 Stück    252,51 EUR

Considering myself a strong long, although I tried to sell 30 shares in December 2019 (this failed due to greed / too high order limit o_O). My sincere thanks go to all experts and everyone else in this forum for the excellent information and encouraging instructions suggestions words:).
 
Last edited:
No Xetra shenanigans so far today, on medium volume trading:

upload_2020-2-6_9-41-28.png

Note that the overnight "drop" in this graph is due to Xetra closing 2pm ET, two hours before Nasdaq regular trading closes, in reality the after-hours price on Nasdaq closed on $727, i.e. €660 - the current €676 price is a +2% gain over that closing price, which, if things don't change in the next 15 minutes, might be carried over into Nasdaq pre-market opening price of around ~$743.

I believe the gains are primarily a reflection of the overnight macro improvements in Asian markets.

Once Nasdaq pre-market trading opens, these secondary exchanges will mostly follow the Nasdaq price.
 

Honestly this sounds pretty legit. @ReflexFunds might find this interesting
Pretty much all the call option buyers at WallStreetBets drove up the stock by... buying calls

Thank you for the video, it's a good summary of the delta hedging mechanism.

It's amazing that even now no one in the media has talked about the options delta hedging impact.
The market is so blind here on everything; Tesla's EV technology, Autonomy Technology, Business Fundamentals and Stock Price technical drivers.

I pointed out the potential for uncontrollable delta hedging feedback loops back In early November, as did @Fact Checking I believe.
Yet I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else before this video this week.

Also worth noting, I would guess some hedge funds have been playing call options and are likely larger holders of call delta exposure than retail.

Further to the talk on Tesla options and short interest earlier, I thought I'd add a comment on how this can drive the high volatility in Tesla stock price.

Due to the very high option open interest and very high short interest in Tesla, stock prices moves can be very self fulfilling.

For example, the high open interest in call options will be mostly delta hedged by market makers – requiring them to buy stock to hedge the call options they’ve sold. But as the stock goes up and more call options get closer to the money, delta increases and market makers have to buy more shares to maintain the hedge on their options – and these purchases act to drive the price up further.

At the same time, the higher share prices increase the $ size of the Tesla short position – therefore they need to invest more capital to maintain the same number of shares short. Many will not choose or be able to do this, so they will reduce the number of shares they are short to keep the same $ size of the position. To do this they need to buy Tesla shares – and these purchases act to drive the price up further.

Also, if a market maker has sold puts, these will be mostly delta hedged by shorting stock. But when the stock goes up delta on the put options reduces and market makers can reduce the size of the hedge - to do this they reduce the size of their short stock position and buy shares – and these purchases act to drive the price up further.

A higher share price can also attract new investors who now have more confidence in Tesla’s future - leading to share purchases which will drive the price up further.

Higher share prices also increase staff compensation and can increase staff incentives, moral and productivity – leading to better results – which in the long run will lead to a higher share price. It can also give customers more confidence in the company’s future and make them more likely to buy the car – leading to better results – which again leads to a higher share price. A higher share price also makes it easier to raise more capital with lower dilution.

Of course, this can also all work in reverse when the share price is going down. Which is why Tesla’s enemies have been so intent on producing FUD and employing the confidence crisis short and distort strategy to damage the company.

The feedback loop between market prices and company fundamentals is called Reflexivity by the way.

Similar self fulfilling feedback loops act with Wright's Law/Moore's Law/Experience curves. Wright's Law works because companies believe it is going to work so they invest in the growth that is needed to drive the mechanisms that lead to the learning rates. This increased cumulative production volume leads to lower production costs which leads to lower prices which creates the higher demand the volume was built for which leads to investment in further growth etc.

Given this is such a powerful driver of Tesla stock price, I thought it worth trying to quantify all of these options delta hedging and short stock feedback mechanisms. The result is larger than i expected. I believe a +$10 increase in share price would require the purchase of 4.7 million Tesla shares worth $1.6bn. I think much of all stock volume every day is delta hedging related.

Full detail on all Tesla options value and delta exposure from calls, puts and converts below. These are approximations, but I think close enough.

Tesla Calls open interest:
There are call options on 69 million shares outstanding.
The current market value of all call options is $3.3bn with $0.8bn expiring this week and $2.1bn expiring within the next 3 months. $2.8bn of the calls are in the money and $0.5bn out of the money.
It will be interesting to see what call holders do with their profits. Take profit, buy stock or buy OTM calls?
Delta hedge requirement for these call options is 38 million Tesla shares, worth $13bn. So if all Tesla call were sold by market makers (most likely were) and are 100% delta hedged (market makers should be), then 38 million shares would have to be held to hedge the option position. In reality some of this is cancelled by Put options.

Tesla Puts:
There are put options on 144 million shares outstanding.
These have collapsed in price and current market value of all put options is now only $0.4bn with $0.1bn expiring within the next 3 months.
Delta hedge requirement for these put options is 5.5 million Tesla shares sold short, worth $1.9bn.

Convert hedges owned by Tesla:
Tesla bought call options and sold warrants to limit potential dilution from its 2021, 2022 and 2024 convert issuance. The value of the Tesla calls Tesla owns are currently worth $1.4bn and the Warrants it sold worth $0.6bn. For banks to delta hedge their net option exposure to Tesla from the calls & warrants would require purchasing 4 million Tesla shares.

Net delta exposure from options market.
The gross delta exposure from Calls, Puts and Convert Hedges can all be netted out – they are all likely held by the same market makers. So this is 38 million long from Call open interest, 5.5 million short from Put open interest and 4 million long from Tesla’s convert hedging transactions. This nets out at 36.6 million Tesla share long, currently worth $12.6bn.
Note that while individual market makers can delta hedge with other options rather than shares (but they mostly do shares), this is only passing on delta exposure to a different exposure. So this 37 million shares overall options market delta exposure is what is needed if everybody is 100% delta hedged. Some calls will be sold unhedged by people like Mark Spiegel etc, and some puts likely sold by Tesla retail longs, but I expect the vast majority of the market is delta hedged most of the time. So these means delta hedging accounts for ownership of towards 37 million Tesla shares currently. This is relative to 212 million total Tesla shares (180 million real shares outstanding, 32 million virtual/duplicated shares sold by shorts). Many of these market makers likely loan their long shares to shorts so they may not disclose ownership anywhere close to their real economic ownership of stock.

Convertible bonds:
Most convertible bonds will be held by funds who will delta hedge their exposure to Tesla equity. At current prices this would require selling 8.7 million Tesla shares short. So this is a large chunk of the 30 million Tesla short interest. These are held by different investors to the options open interest so can not be netted out.

Outright short equity:
Short interest is currently 32 million shares sold short or c.$11bn. About 23 million of these shares of c.$8bn are likely sold by real shorts and not from convert hedging. These 32 million short shares are shares that are now owned by 2 different long investors. The short borrowed a share from one long, promised to give it back eventually, then sold it to a new long. Two different long investors now have economic ownership of the same share so in effect the share has been duplicated, with a virtual share or repayment obligation now also trading in the market. This means there are now really 180 million real shares outstanding plus 32 million virtual shares owned by Tesla longs, or a total of 212 million shares.

What is the exposure of all of these positions to a +$10 move in Tesla share price?
For +$10 the net change in delta hedging requirement from the whole options market and from the convertible notes hedging is + 4.0 million shares or $1.4bn of Tesla stock purchases. This is an incredibly powerful feedback mechanism to drive the stock higher.
For +$10 share price the size of the Tesla short owned by real shorts will increase in $ terms. To maintain the same $ size of position Tesla short will have to buy Tesla shares to reduce the number of shares short. For $10 this would have to be 0.7 million shares.
So between the two, this is buying pressure for 4.7 million shares due to a $10 increase in share price.

What is the exposure of all of these positions to a -$10 move in Tesla share price?
For $10 the net change in delta hedging requirement from the whole options market and from the convertible notes hedging is - 4.7 million shares or $1.6bn of Tesla stock sales. This is again a powerful feedback mechanism to drive the stock lower. At the moment the mechanism is slightly more powerful in the downward direction – this is because the recent price increase has moved so many Tesla calls into the money and delta to its maximum of 1. There is more room for changing in delta with downward movements currently. This will likely even out as calls mature and people roll calls into more out of the money strikes.
For -$10 share price the size of the Tesla short owned by real shorts will reduced in $ terms. To maintain the same $ value, Tesla shorts will sell a further 0.7 million shares short.
So between the two, this is selling pressure for 5.4 million shares from a -$10 move in stock price.

Note: All these numbers are approximations and use a $345 share price and a fixed 45% volatility for all options/strikes/maturities. I don’t have a data source with volatility or option price for every option matched to open interest, and these approximations makes it much easier to make quick options pricing calculations.

@Fact Checking @hacer @Zhelko Dimic @EVNow @MFranc123 @Doggydogworld
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the video, it's a good summary of the delta hedging mechanism.

It's amazing that even now no one in the media has talked about the options delta hedging impact.
The market is so blind here on everything; Tesla's EV technology, Autonomy Technology, Business Fundamentals and Stock Price technical drivers.

I pointed out the potential for uncontrollable feedback loops back In early November, as did @Fact Checking I believe.
Yet I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else before this video this week.

Correct, I've pointed out this effect before earlier in 2019, but I haven't quantified it beyond very crude estimates.

Regarding this initial estimate you made back in November:

"The result is larger than i expected. I believe a +$10 increase in share price would require the purchase of 4.7 million Tesla shares worth $1.6bn. I think much of all stock volume every day is delta hedging related."​

IIRC you later updated this to around ~2 million shares per $10 increase in the TSLA price? Could you perhaps re-run your calculations with the latest open interest and the current layout of the options positions?

In particular due to the very sharp rise Implied Volatility is very high all across the options series (70%+ instead of the regular 45-50%), and this necessarily increases delta hedging requirements well over what the standard Black-Scholes model (or its fancier modern extensions) would predict. I believe options market makers would use the market's expectations of volatility to estimate risk, not modeled volatility, when market IV is significantly higher. They'd prefer to over-estimate risk rather than under-estimate it - but this effect magnifies the feedback loop...

Also note another effect: the exploding options prices made it very expensive to hedge short positions with calls, and I believe this too might have caused short positions to be closed.
 
Last edited: