Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I have also pretty much given up on Tesla PV. I contacted them I think 3 times now, once in store, for solar on my commercial building that is currently under construction. Not one response.
I understand though. They are making batteries as fast as they can, and allocating them via priorities.
1) Island of T’au. Does a tiny microgrid make sense? With batteries? Go for visibility
2) Hornsdale plant wind solar batteries in Australia. Grid stability, FCAS, (freq control, ancillary services) high visibility. Big gain or loss. Super big win.
3) Island of Kaua’i that is rapidly going 100% renewables. High visibility, lots of competition. (Visited in oct 2018, solar _everywhere_)
4) fall 2017 hurricanes Irma and Maria, Irma straight up the middle of Florida after coming ashore at Marco Island early September. (3 million of us fled the state that could on 2 traffic jammed interstate highways, intense) then Maria nailed Puerto Rico dead on. _Wiped_ out the electrical grid, PV and batteries going in there but little to no information. (My Solar PV company installation based in Puerto Rico 11.655kW) (with solar farms there and powerwall certified installers)
Other stuff
This all to me implies they are supply constrained w regards to batteries even though they are making multiple gigawatts/year they need to go faster, and are. So I could have waited for Tesla to install my PV, which is not virtually a commodity ($600/watt in 1956, $101/watt in 1974, now 20-30 CENTS a watt today), the smart inverters can almost island w/o batteries for a home “microgrid” (or neighborhood microgrid)(VPP)
I was counseled to be patient for the battery being over 70 I get stunned at the rate of increase of technology and then it accelerates, red shifting.
We will get batteries soon enough, others have greater needs, meanwhile, prepare.
/rant off
 
Predictions are never going to be fully correct but what predictions exactly do you have a problem with? [...]

I'm sure Elon has made many bad decisions at Tesla, but many of the key decisions at Tesla are calculated risks; some work out well and some work out badly, but the outcome and consequent hindsight bias do not necessarily tell you whether the decision was good or bad and whether the risk was worth taking in the first place.

Performance = Skill + Luck

This is true. Always.

I believe this is one of the key reasons why passive investing generally kicks active investing's behind... Even if you do everything right, you can still fail. Likewise, if you have a lot of success people ascribe that to their skill, almost never to just being lucky. Nobody wants to hear it. The more expert the less likely folks accept that. However: the more skill you have the less luck you need (which is why Tesla is the only stock I own aside from my index portfolio). I do think that Tesla was lucky the right times in the past and I do think that their skills are unparalleled.

I do think we all too often think of good decisions only in terms of their outcomes. Tesla takes many good decisions and more often than not their outcomes confirm that, too (i.e. sometimes luck is on their side, too)

I do think this applies to you and the other's attacked here (@neroden, @KarenRei, @Fact Checking and others, too). Nobody is infallible. But great skill reduces the number of times we need to be lucky.

Thanks to all of you (and everyone else on this board) to advance the skill side of the performance equation we all need a little less luck :)

/OT end...

EDIT: German TFF-Forum is full of folks that ordered immediately when they could in December (i.e. before X-Mas) and are still waiting for their car. I don't understand why the delivery estimator on the website is so bad (overly optimistic in terms of early deliveries) but what I do understand is, that despite record deliveries in Europe many early buyers are still without their cars. I'm worried how Tesla will be able to satisfy all the European demand.
 
Last edited:
Looks like Switzerland is gonna get a few more deliveries the coming weeks:
Shortsville Times Headline

"More proof Tesla demand falling...now in Europe. Huge parking lot of Teslas they can't sell! Model 3 is now a bomb world wide. Sell your stock. Run away. Suck in the glorious emissions coming out of that tailpipe and worship the petroleum Gods!"

Well, at least the headlines are getting more creative. lol!

Dan
 
Performance = Skill + Luck

This is true. Always.

I believe this is one of the key reasons why passive investing generally kicks active investing's behind... Even if you do everything right, you can still fail. Likewise, if you have a lot of success people ascribe that to their skill, almost never to just being lucky. Nobody wants to hear it. The more expert the less likely folks accept that. However: the more skill you have the less luck you need (which is why Tesla is the only stock I own aside from my index portfolio). I do think that Tesla was lucky the right times in the past and I do think that their skills are unparalleled.

I do think we all too often think of good decisions only in terms of their outcomes. Tesla takes many good decisions and more often than not their outcomes confirm that, too (i.e. sometimes luck is on their side, too)

I do think this applies to you and the other's attacked here (@neroden, @KarenRei, @Fact Checking and others, too). Nobody is infallible. But great skill reduces the number of times we need to be lucky.

Thanks to all of you (and everyone else on this board) to advance the skill side of the performance equation we all need a little less luck :)

/OT end...

EDIT: German TFF-Forum is full of folks that ordered immediately when they could in December (i.e. before X-Mas) and are still waiting for their car. I don't understand why the delivery estimator on the website is so bad (overly optimistic in terms of early deliveries) but what I do understand is, that despite record deliveries in Europe many early buyers are still without their cars. I'm worried how Tesla will be able to satisfy all the European demand.
As to the delivery issue, I suspect Tesla will handle it better than they did for the initial rollout here in the states. As you recall, end of Q3 delivery was a nightmare...including mine. That said, they got through it. They learned from it and they improved. I think Tesla's biggest issue is that they tend to be a victim of their own success. They don't anticipate slowdowns anywhere along the line, and it seems that happens, often with issues beyond their control, be it shipping delays etc.

Remember, for those of you that don't know the story, I named the car in my Avatar "Patience" because that's what she taught me above all else. Yup, no doubt being on the cutting edge of a new product in a new market sucks pretty hard at times. However, I wouldn't trade Patience for any other car in the world. OK, that's an exaggeration. I would take a Gen 2 Roadster...but then I'd have to wait ANOTHER 2 years! lol!

Dan
 
Predictions are never going to be fully correct but what predictions exactly do you have a problem with? Minor variations in quarterly profit or a few months shift in timing of events aren't significant in the long run, but most of the key changes at Tesla this year have been predicted by someone on this forum. Also, I rarely see people here claim to be certain of their predictions and they often offer alternative cases.

I'm sure Elon has made many bad decisions at Tesla, but many of the key decisions at Tesla are calculated risks; some work out well and some work out badly, but the outcome and consequent hindsight bias do not necessarily tell you whether the decision was good or bad and whether the risk was worth taking in the first place.

Many people here acknowledged there will be a significant reduction in weekly sales in the US this year if no demand levers are pulled, but also explained why this isn't a problem. I argued that Tesla already had the ability to launch the base SR whenever they chose from the start of this year (but this wasn't my base case, i thought leasing and SR PUP/MR non-PUP were more likely for now). Neroden has argued for a long time that Tesla should close it's store network. Many people here have said that Tesla could significantly reduce S/X pricing while maintaining gross profit through cost savings and mix.

On US demand after exhausting the firm order book in Q4
December 21st - "It shouldn't be a concern that Tesla nearly exhausted the near term order book for $46k+ cash sales models in the US. The fact that Tesla have persuaded c.150k people to trade up from a $35k reservation to a $57k average sales price is pretty spectacular, but they were always going to have to increase their addressable market size sooner or later.

To begin with, lease options generally increase demand 30-50% and is an easy move to increase demand for the current $46k product range in the US.
Tesla can significantly increase addressable market size again by launching in Europe and Asia. The European luxury market is 2x US and China EV market c.4x US.
They will also significantly increase the market size in the US by launching lower optioned cars. The US addressable market size roughly doubles for every $5k reduction in ASP. The cheapest model 3 is $46k currently but they appear on track to release options down to $35k in around 6 months.

So Tesla only need long term of 1-2k US weekly sales of the currently available $46k+ options to map to around 10k weekly worldwide sales across all models including lease option."​

On upcoming S/X price cuts.
January 14th - "Looking just at Model S for now, I think Tesla can afford to reduce S100D price from $97k to $87k and PS100D from $135k to $130k while maintaining the Q4 average gross profit per car (which is higher than the current level post Jan price cuts). I don't think this will be enough to sustain demand at c.50k annually though, $87k is still a large step up from the Q4 $77k S75D base price.

The S100D price can be reduced further (probably to around $83k) if they introduce a new S120D top of the range option.

All of these estimates are without any cost savings from a move to GF1 cells or motors, either of which could help bring the pricing down while keeping a constant average gross profit per car."

January 23rd - "With the efficiency savings, Tesla probably only needs to sell 70-75k 100Kwh S&X at current pricing to make the same gross profit as 100k S&X sales in 2018 at the old mix. I think it is difficult to trade so many previous 75kwh buyers up in price so significantly though simply by removing the cheaper option. Tesla definitely has another move to make on pricing or refresh."​

On ability to launch the base model already:
January 21st 2019 - "I estimate if Tesla ramped to 7k/week & opened orders for all options (including the $35k base) at the start of Q1, then Q1 model 3 gross profit would be down $30-40m & SG&A up $10-20m vs producing 5.5k/week with current available options.
...
There are a few reasons why Tesla is not releasing all car options immediately:
  • Although Model 3 would be profitable on average, the unoptioned $35k would still be unprofitable at this stage, particularly outside the US without GHG credits.
  • This could lead to negative profits in 1Q19 and 2Q19 (but likely still positive profits in 2H19 and positive for the full year).
  • Delaying ramp to 7k/week buys more time to fix service business issues before ramping fleet size further.
  • New AP3 hardware is due in March/April and Tesla may wish to wait for this to be ready before ramping production to 7k/week, to limit retrofits.
  • It makes sense to save release of lower price options for the US tax credit step downs. This allows them to sell the narrative to customers/press that Model 3 has continued to get cheaper despite the tax credit cut."
Disclaimer on projections generally:
"Projections are by nature uncertain and without a doubt will be incorrect, but that doesn't make them useless. Best guess assumptions based on all known available data and that reconcile to previously reported accounts and future guidance are far more useful than saying the future is uncertain therefore there is no point trying to anticipate it. It is always worth stressing a model with changes to your key assumptions though, rather than believing in an arbitrary base case."​

Key Model sensitivities:
"Key sensitivities to my $1,348m annualised net profit are:

· +- $1k Model 3 production cost for a $35k SR base Model 3: +-$331m annualised net profit.
· +- 10% Standard Range take rate: +- $166m profit
· +- 10% EAP take rate: +-$166m profit
· +-2.5k S&X deliveries per quarter (+-10k annual): $268m profit
· +- 1% Model S&X gross margin: +-$88m profit
· +-10% take rate for premium interior: +-$99m
· +-$20m Quarterly SG&A and R&D costs: +-$80m."​
Hey @ReflexFunds, as far as I’m concerned, there is no reason for you to waste your time replying to this person. Your body of work speaks for itself. I, for one, am grateful for the effort that you put forth in here and for the quality of your posts. The same goes for the other individuals that were called out by name. Thanks to all of you for making this a better place.
 
I’ve never understood paying employees stock options as incentives to sell Tesla’s. The car pretty much sell themselves. Also having 5-8 employees working at each store is a waste, wind it down to 2, stock options should be gone now, so that will save us some money.

Every publicly traded company can issue, i.e. print employee stock options and ESPPs essentially for free, with only minimal dilution. They register them with the SEC, and once the options vest and get excercised the NASDAQ creates new shares "out of thin air", with no cash cost to Tesla.

Equity compensation is a way to lower Tesla's labor cash costs - but it's also a way to retain top engineering talent.

In Silicon Valley it's standard practice to have equity compensation, and the fact that Tesla gives every full time employee stock compensation has kept out troublemakers like the UAW far away from Tesla. (The UAW insists on union members as contractors, with no ownership stake in the company - this makes it easier for the UAW to negotiate against shareholder interests.)

The UAW, who even in NUMMI days represented Detroit's interests, would LOVE to be inside Tesla's premises...

Elon also does this at his other firms, such as SpaceX: every employee gets stock. It's a great way to reward everyone who takes part in a very hard to achieve mission, with a poor work-life balance.

And yes, I think retail employees should get similar stock compensation deals: tending to future customers at showrooms or helping customers during delivery or at service centers is just as critical to the mission as maintaining machines at the factory.
 
Last edited:
I have also pretty much given up on Tesla PV. I contacted them I think 3 times now, once in store, for solar on my commercial building that is currently under construction. Not one response.
OT
@oneday
not to beat a dead horse but it's the weekend
I viewTesla as Tesla Energy, batteries with wheels (cars) stationary batteries, and all that entails
It's up to _you_ to keep after them.
I had a new roof, (thanks hurricane Irma i guess), 5 _years_ of monthly data of electrical usage and needs, smoothed the skids for my install
I wanted the 'panache' of a Tesla logo on my solar panels ($2.71/watt total installed cost with BOS, labor, profits etc)
every piece of data necessary, and realized I could wait for Tesla panels (panel cost of under $1/watt) or get 16,000 - 18,000+kWh/year now buying commodity, so went with Hanwha Q.Cells, for now not later
Tesla has the _battery_ that's their value added. plan for a battery upgrade in a year or 2, (powerpack? do you need it? maybe)
take a class or 3 at Solar Energy International,
Solar Training, Solar PV Training, Solar Installer Training, Solar Energy International
keep after tesla (i emailed the folks probably 10x+ and got answers with prodding)
send them _your_ data and requirements. (i min/max ~580 - 1,258kWh/month, 10,500/yr and climbing)
 
Last edited:
And yes, I think retail employees should get similar stock compensation deals: tending to future customers at showrooms or helping customers during delivery or at service centers is just as critical to the mission as maintaining machines at the factory.

BTW., one piece of the retail stores puzzle are those weird stories from Q3-Q4, where customers got their referral bonus despite not having passed a referral code at the time of purchase. (!) I saw numerous credible appearing reports about this on social media.

Speculation was that certain Tesla retail employees entered referral codes of associated third parties, without the knowledge of the customer. Some of the top prizes had real, marketable monetary value. This, if it indeed happened, was basically theft and defrauded Tesla, and might have been one of the reasons why the referral program got stopped.

We don't know the scale of this "referral theft", but if it was significant and widespread, then it might have played a role in the store closure decision as well.
 
BTW., one piece of the retail stores puzzle are those weird stories from Q3-Q4, where customers got their referral bonus despite not having passed a referral code at the time of purchase. (!) I saw numerous credible appearing reports about this on social media.

Speculation was that certain Tesla retail employees entered referral codes of associated third parties, without the knowledge of the customer. This was basically theft and defrauded Tesla, and might have been one of the reasons why the referral program got stopped. We don't know the scale of this "referral theft", but if it was significant and widespread, then it might have played a role in the store closure decision as well.

I've also heard reports that sales staff were able to tag customer names in the system themselves to collect their sales bonus, even if they never had contact with the customer and the sale was fully online.
 
Can someone decode this chart on Tesla Financials from a short seller pitching bankruptcy? Seems to be saying that “free cash flow” is dangerously low, in the $132M range, and that has a red flag next to it showing “-221.71M”, presumably meaning that the $132M should be $222M higher to get a gold star.

View attachment 384692

No. It's gibberish.

It's wrong (free cash flow is showing negative for q3/q4), so there's no need to decide it.

Why wrong? It's a graph of FCF for the trailing 12 months.

Using 12-months trailing average FCF to estimate current cash levels of Tesla is extremely misleading, because it includes Q1-Q2 2018 negative free cash flow quarters when Tesla was spending a lot of cash on ramping up Model 3 production, while not having matching Model 3 income yet.

But the ramp up was a success, it was effectively a one time cash expense, and those two early quarters have no impact on today's cash flow levels. So using "12 months trailing average" to extrapolate Tesla's current cash position is a flawed methodology which has no connection to reality.

12-month trailing FCF is often a good metric for low growth companies: the 12 months tail smoothes out many seasonal effects such as holiday sales. But Tesla is a high growth company with a non-trivial ramp-up expense in the last 12 months.

Instead the correct way to estimate Tesla's cash levels is to use an intelligent mix of Q3 and Q4 results - like @schonelucht and @ReflexFunds has done - which results in current estimated mid-quarter lowest cash levels of around ~$1.6b or so, under fairly conservative assumptions.

(Plus Tesla owns billions of dollars worth of already manufactured cars en route to customers, which assets they can readily borrow against should they wish to make even more cars in this quarter. Finished goods inventory is not included in FCF nor in cash and cash equivalents figures.)

So this is a classic case of factually correct data that is worse than an outright lie.

These tactics are frequently used by TSLAQ FUDsters: their use of the technically correct external YCharts data lends false credibility to their lies.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The absolute worst thing Tesla can do is to create a demand they can't fill. Right now they are selling all they can produce. Spending money on this kind of education now and not filling the demand created, would likely cause people to purchase some other car. Why? Because once someone gets in a car buying mode, they buy a car--even if it is not the car they first thought of (Car salespeople use this kind of emotional tactic all the time). If Tesla eventually gets in a position where they can't sell all they can produce, then this kind of education makes sense. In the meantime, everyone who owns a Tesla meets people who don't know about electric cars. The vast majority of Tesla owners (and Leaf and other EV owners for that matter) talk about how they like their cars, how they'll never go back to gas, and debunk the FUD.

There are now something like 400,000 S and X owners worldwide plus all the new 3 owners. If each one only has one acquaintance that purchases a Tesla over the next two years, that's 200,000 per year plus those who see Teslas and Tesla owners at events such as Drive Electric Week, and Tesla galleries.

THIS!!!!

Ya just dropped the mic.....

To all concerned....

“Lighten up... Francis”

Fire Away!:)
 
You are indeed better than most. Nevertheless here we are 3 years later and you still don't realize the SolarCity thing was a bad idea.
Because the merger wasn't. The merger was a smart vulture move.

SolarCity was not a good company, due to the awful "borrow short-term, lend long-term" business model. Which is why I didn't invest in it. However,
(1) (as many pointed out) it wasn't viable reputationally to allow it to go bankrupt
(2) they got it for around its scrap value, which is a good deal
(3) by virtue of financial scheming (sweeping SolarCity's bank account and monetizing that "scrap value" of old leases), it was actually a cash raise, something most people still haven't noticed after three years, including yourself apparently
(4) they needed to buy some solar installer/distributor (arguably there were better choices)

I certainly did miss how badly things were going at the Buffalo factory, but without much inside information, anything there is a guess.

I bet there are people here that think q1 is going to be a small loss.

It is. Of course, it depends how you define "small", but it certainly ain't gonna be Q2 2018 with its $717 million loss.

Sure hasn't been a lot of effort to model 6k$+ in price cuts

If you're wildly pessimistic, you could estimate 6k * 86k = ~516M worse than Q4's $140 milion, which would give a loss of $376 million, which I think is rather the worst case possibility for a loss. It'll likely be better than that due to higher volume, production cost cuts, declining depreciation, and cuts in fixed costs, though one-time costs could counteract some of that.

Cash flow, which is much more important at this time, will be substantially better due to how much of the costs are already-paid-for depreciation (and likely more non-cash charges attributed to non-controlling interests for the solar financing entities).

There are some serious wild cards on cash flow, and I'll be the first to say that it might be negative, but I expect it to be positive.
 
I’ve never understood paying employees stock options as incentives to sell Tesla’s. The car pretty much sell themselves. Also having 5-8 employees working at each store is a waste, wind it down to 2, stock options should be gone now, so that will save us some money.
Were there seriously that many employees per store ?!?! Yowza.

The stores were bloated.
 
There are now something like 400,000 S and X owners worldwide plus all the new 3 owners. If each one only has one acquaintance that purchases a Tesla over the next two years, that's 200,000 per year plus those who see Teslas and Tesla owners at events such as Drive Electric Week, and Tesla galleries.

BTW., Tesla will probably deliver their one millionth car near the end of this year.

Within 10 months Tesla will have built the world's largest car sales force: around one million happy, satisfied customers.

Retail stores? The buggy whips of the 21st century.