Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[larmor]

Sigh, techcrunch....

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First they say that, then show specs that blatantly show that the Taycan is basically twice the price:

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Porsche Taycan vs Tesla Model S: Spec for spec, price for price – TechCrunch

Love it!!! Comparing to turbo, tesla is half the price, a bit faster, some more range (90 to 100 miles more).

Still overall it is better that porsche sells the taycan (i dont like the name, someone should have checked if it was taken). More sales of the taycan are overall better to replace existing ICE cars. The market is huge, and more EVs will be overall better for tesla. I still think tesla is going to pivot shift to an energy company and i'm keeping my tinfoil hat....

 

[Singuy]

And you can 4 Bolt EVs for the price of a Model S, but no one is doing that. What’s with all the “If not a Tesla, then it’s DOA?” There are gobs of people who are brand loyal to Porsche and they will pay whatever the price is, just like some posters here are brand loyal to Tesla. Everyone’s got different taste and that’s perfectly fine.

It's not if not Tesla then it's Doa. Ever wonder why Android always had bigger screen size, better pixel density, cheaper price and other features ahead of iPhones? Because that is what it takes to take market share from Apple. Having an inferior product, or a more expensive product (in this case it's both) will not get you anywhere. Will they sell 5000 of them in a year? Sure...but you can sell 5000 anything in a year. You can even buy female feces from Japan and I bet they sell more than 5k a year.

 

[stef]

Steve Jobs Ghost on Twitter

Poor Chanos ...

 

[Tslynk67]

And you can 4 Bolt EVs for the price of a Model S, but no one is doing that. What’s with all the “If not a Tesla, then it’s DOA?” There are gobs of people who are brand loyal to Porsche and they will pay whatever the price is, just like some posters here are brand loyal to Tesla. Everyone’s got different taste and that’s perfectly fine.

You're right. My mate is buying a Taycan because he's a Porsche person, and there will be many other enthusiasts do the same.

For neutrals who are EV curious though, it's a very high entry price.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

Yes, I think the will make a base model for under $90k.

Everyone has taken Tesla's lead and start with higher trims so as not to lose money while ramping.

What makes you believe they will deliver on the promised price of low $90,000 for the regular Taycan when the Taycan 4S and Taycan Turbo turned out to be $50,000 and $55,000 more expensive than promised?

 

[Tenable]

OT stuff:


Those transactions were cancelled by Tesla. Lots of threads regarding this (which settled down in your absence)
Used Tesla Model 3s pricing error?

Mongo, I did read about unhappy deal buyers getting cancelled on. However, I have been seeing many posts from people taking deliveries. The latest post was on a FB group I'm in thanking the group for helping them "score" a AWD DM M3 for 36k. One person said Tesla called and told them it was a pricing error but only asked that they pay an additional $400. These were posts in the last week. I have no idea how widespread the issue is, but it appears to still be happening. It actually has me fairly confused as I'm seeing people citing tons of demand locally and in markets abroad.

Again, no idea what to conclude by it. If it affected 30 cars or 200 hundred its probably not the end of the world as long as it isnt widespread. Just another data point. Now, if this was happening to thousands of cars and Tesla was letting the transactions complete.. I'd be far more worried.

Thank you for the reply and linking me to the thread.

 

[Artful Dodger]

I fully expect Ford’s electric truck to be a “hemi”.

No: Dodge = Hemi

Ford = Dumi​

 

[Doggydogworld]

I see what they did. Turbo was supposed to be a top model. Now with the S at the end there's another price hike for the top model.
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Raising the Turbo price and adding an even higher-priced "Turbo S" model signals high demand from top end buyers. That's good, we want EVs to be profitable. Of course it's also possible they've completely misjudged their market. Base price for the various Panamera models ranges from 86-190k, so this pricing isn't out of line.

Note that the "wow" 265 kW regen likely results in very uncomfortably hard braking, which they'll mostly use for range certification tests and tracks, where aggressive regen helps.

Uncomfortably hard braking, lol. Performance friction brakes easily exceed 500 kW at high speeds. But yeah, 265 kW regen is obviously not for normal driving. What Porsche is designed and priced for normal driving, anyway? Think track, Autobahn, etc.

WLTP/EPA range test profiles don't have 150 mph speeds or 1G braking. The EPA Highway test profile doesn't exceed 60 kW of braking power for this car. Maybe the aggressive US06 profile hits 90 kW for a second or two.

 

[Tslynk67]

Tesla AP did not have any auto-braking at that time (2018), AFAIK, I'm not even sure it does now either, not for totally stationary objects? So it worked as designed, the fault is 100% on the driver: Highway Accident Brief: Rear-End Collision Between a Car Operating with Advanced Driver Assistance Systems and a Stationary Fire Truck

 

[Foghat]

This fundamental to why Tesla has a 10 year advantage:

You *can not* be an ICE company and compete with Tesla.

You must be all in on BEV infrastructure/ecosystem or fail.

It’s clear as day. The graveyard of Tesla killers is mounting by the hour.

This is proving the first principles of market dynamics to the letter.

You can’t get any more obvious.

Tesla will continue to stand atop the fallen giants with its slingshot of innovation for the foreseeable future.

 

[Chocochip]

Tesla:
We make a great performance electric car that's practical (loads of seats, storage), goes very far, very fast, and you can charge it quickly almost anywhere! And we're trying hard to have price parity with ICE cars in the same "class", but of lesser performance!

Porsche:
We make expensive cars, so that when you drive one everyone knows you're rich! We also have more buttons & knobs, more touchscreens, menu systems that take a long time to figure out so that when you navigate them your passengers will be simultaneously confused and impressed! We also have an analog clock thingy right-smack on the dash, to indicate the fact you have refined tastes! Aaaand... we've got LEATHER EVERYWHERE!!! (also available in leather-free version for wealthy tree-huggers!)

 

[Todd Burch]

Let's not get too gloaty over the $150,900 price. Per TechCrunch, cheaper variants will come. They're basically pulling a Tesla and starting with the higher-end variants. Makes perfect sense, and no one here complains too loudly when Tesla does it, which is 100% of the time.

The difference is that when Tesla did it, there was no competition.

 

[Fact Checking]

What Porsche is designed and priced for normal driving, anyway? Think track, Autobahn, etc.

I think of my own long track record of ~200 km/h Autobahn driving, and you almost never want to brake hard, and definitively not at 0.9g...

(If it happens frequently to you on the Autobahn then IMO you are playing Russian roulette and are half in the grave already. )

Braking hard is for rare emergencies and for track driving. There's no "etc." - these two situations cover almost 100% of the use cases of hard braking.

I.e. it's a carefully packaged marketing gimmick, because Porsche was unable to beat Tesla on acceleration and range.

 

[Scott7]

What was Porsche even doing when benchmarking the Model S for the last few years? Did the product marketers force them to sandbag it to not throughly trounce the rest of their lineup?

 

[willow_hiller]

Funny detail in the Taycan configurator. You can choose whether you want to be in the closet about your Porsche's fuel type. By default there's no "electric" badge.

 

[Chocochip]

it's a carefully packaged marketing gimmick, because Porsche was unable to beat Tesla on acceleration and range.

"The Taycan is slower than a Model S Performance..."

Porsche: The Taycan is slow...ing much faster zen a Model S Performance wiz Advanced German Slowing-Down Technology*, and our number iz very high! Alzo, efficiency, ya?!

*regen braking, activated by pressing the brake pedal

 

[Speedr117]

Configurator is open on the Porsche website. It get's real pricy, real quick. Similar spec to a Tesla Model S Performance is $200k!

MobileCharger

• Speedr117
• Sep 4, 2019

My personal favorite: you HAVE to buy a charger, either the Mobile Charger Connect for...wait for it...$1,120, or the Mobile Charger Connect incl. Home Energy Manager (currently unavailable) for $1,660. They MAKE you buy the charger!!! And it isn't cheap!!! Wow, a new low in nickle and dime pricing.

 

[Todd Burch]

Dear Porsche,

I like the general exterior design of your Taycan.

Everything else, though (which is where I told you yesterday it would really matter)....sigh...

Dear Tesla:

Your cars look great, but hire a few Porsche designers.

But damn, let them keep their engineers.

 

[Artful Dodger]

But if your only defense against invading armies is a moat, you will not last long. What matters is the pace of innovation rate of outgoing fire.

FTFY (haha, let's keep with the analogy).

But let's roll that Roaster, Elon! And no 20-Century 'Turbo', but if we have to wait past 2020, then let's (v3) Supercharge a 240 KWh 'Maxcell' bty in 1 hr.

Cheers!

 

[jerry33]

What was Porsche even doing when benchmarking the Model S for the last few years? Did the product marketers force them to sandbag it to not throughly trounce the rest of their lineup?

Porsche has always made a lot of their money by selling technology to other OEMs. Their cars are to showcase the technology. In an EV world there is no place for advanced ICE technology, so making an EV that is better than their ICE cars will kill them quickly. They are just buying time.