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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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The value of existing shares doesn't get hurt by a company issuing new stock. You own a smaller part of a more valuable company. Paging @Curt Renz, who has explained this (many times) before.

Sorry Paulus I can't let this go because it's an important point to get right.

What you say is arithmetically correct at a single point in time, however it ignores your share of the future growth of the company. I own Tesla shares not for the value they are today, but for the value they will grow to in 5 years time. If my holding is diluted today I suffer no loss today, for the reason you correctly state, but I will have a smaller share of the future growth of the company. I am happy with the % of Tesla I now own, I do not want it reduced.
 
Why all the fuss about a Model S refresh? There's still no real indication that one is coming, right?


Drivetrain refresh is 100% coming (plaid) likely shown (and likely even available for immediate sale) on 9/22- though I expect the raven DT will continue for sub-100k priced models.

RUMOR is the body/interior will see a refresh of some kind then too (and honestly that'd make some sense, but YMMV)
 
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Sorry Paulus I can't let this go because it's an important point to get right.

What you say is arithmetically correct at a single point in time, however it ignores your share of the future growth of the company. I own Tesla shares not for the value they are today, but for the value they will grow to in 5 years time. If my holding is diluted today I suffer no loss today, for the reason you correctly state, but I will have a smaller share of the future growth of the company. I am happy with the % of Tesla I now own, I do not want it reduced.
If those new dollars are put to accelerating growth then your stocks may actually be made more valuable than they would have been without the dilution.

If this wasn't a common occurrence why would any company ever go public?
 
Sorry Paulus I can't let this go because it's an important point to get right.

What you say is arithmetically correct at a single point in time, however it ignores your share of the future growth of the company. I own Tesla shares not for the value they are today, but for the value they will grow to in 5 years time. If my holding is diluted today I suffer no loss today, for the reason you correctly state, but I will have a smaller share of the future growth of the company. I am happy with the % of Tesla I now own, I do not want it reduced.

This is hopefully balanced to the plus side by better, faster and more margin growth.
 
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Drivetrain refresh is 100% coming (plaid) likely shown (and likely even available for immediate sale) on 9/22- though I expect the raven DT will continue for sub-100k priced models.

RUMOR is the body/interior will see a refresh of some kind then too (and honestly that'd make some sense, but YMMV)

I think a body refresh is confirmed at least for the Plaid version: it's been confirmed that it will be different than the existing S and as seen on track testing. (Fender flares etc.) No confirmation if non-plaid models will have a different body though.
 
This is hopefully balanced to the plus side by better, faster and more margin growth.

Now that is a debate worth having.

Frankly, with the slow speed the competition is moving at, I don't think it's a given that the dilution would pay for itself because the kind of growth required to be worth the dilution exposes Tesla to potential strategic blunders that might not have happened if the growth was more measured. There is such a thing as management having too much on their plate to eat it all without getting indigestion.
 
:rolleyes:

You can see your speed in your peripheral vision. You can’t be complaining about looking at maps because that has never existed in a forward facing dash except for Tesla.

Audi was showing maps in the instrument cluster for the TT as early as 2014, I believe before Tesla, which initially only showed current maneuver while you were navigating.

Audi TT.png


Note also that Model 3 was not the first vehicle to not have an instrument cluster in line with the steering wheel. The Toyota Prius has had that for a decade now.

PriusDash.png


Actually, even the Model T has all instrument displays in the center:
Model T Dash.png



As a Model 3 owner I don't miss the instrument cluster in front of the wheel and do appreciate being able to adjust seat and steering wheel for comfort without having the constraint of having the see the cluster.

Headroom is what killed a Model S Signature purchase for us back in the day. We were tempted with Model X, but are happy with Model 3. And Model Y has even better headroom than Model 3.

At this point, we're going to trade in our early Model 3 (with the alcantara headliner!) in for a Model Y or Model X. But only if the Model X interior gets a refresh - the landscape display is, IMO, better than the portrait on the Models S & X.
 
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Now that s a debate worth having.

Frankly, with the slow speed the competition is moving at, I don't think it's a given that the dilution would pay for itself because the kind of growth required to be worth the dilution exposes Tesla to potential strategic blunders that might not have happened if the growth was more measured. There is such a thing as management having too much on their plate to eat it all without getting indigestion.

Or Tesla could make loads of mistakes (multi part wheel arches) and innovate out of trouble before others take advantage.

They should only employ the best managers, engineers etc. I think talent should be the limiting factor. Once bureaucrats are in, they self select their incompetent yesmen underlings and it goes bad. Avoid those types.
 
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There are two things going on here. There's FUD. I think we can all recognize that.

Then there are analysts like Tony Sarcophagous (or whatever his name is) at Bernstein who is probably being mostly sincere with his over-valuation call (he just doesn't know how to value a company like Tesla). Investors with real money to invest will always be more accurate (in the aggregate) at putting a value on a company than someone who is simply paid to tell you what its value is. Because investors who are no good at determining future value soon find themselves with a lack of funds with which to place bets while those who are good at it have ever increasing amounts of money with which to risk. And, analysts who are below average tend to keep collecting a paycheck even when most of their calls are a complete miss. And, they are not betting their own money.

The same thing happened with Microsoft analysts in the late '80's. I don't think it was bad intentions. Software was a new thing and analysts had never valued a company that had such huge margins and growth rate. As sales grew, each additional sale was almost 100% profit. Even though analysts knew this intellectually, they couldn't translate that into valuations that made sense (the market valued it higher than analysts for many years). So, for a number of years most analysts considered MSFT over-valued and couldn't recommend it their clients. They missed out on one of the most profitable stocks of the software boom. It wasn't a bubble, it just kept growing earnings faster than analysts could model reasonable valuations for.

I think Tesla will turn out similar. Analysts like Tony claim they are "on-board" the EV revolution but I doubt they understand just how fast the growth will be and how quickly the cost curve will continue to decline as those volumes explode. They also will tend to over-estimate the ability of legacy automakers to compete (either with their gas cars or their EV's). And then there is the matter of other initiatives Tesla may succeed at (just when you think valuations are getting really crazy).

So, yeah, I don't worry about "over-valuation" as long as Tesla's future initiatives stay on track relative to the market. In general, you have to pay a premium to get the kind of growth I expect out of Tesla once investors start to figure that out. And that is exactly what has been happening since late last year.

My problem with the valuation argument is the money being spent by worldwide automotive manufacturers on electric vehicles. On this metric alone, Tesla has disrupted the automotive and petroleum industries. Only the most obtuse Luddite, cue Bob Lutz, would argue otherwise. On this basis alone, TSLA is dramatically undervalued.

Today, Elon has turned his focus and innovative leviathan toward the electric utility industry. I would ague from firsthand experience, the utilities are far less adaptable than the automotive industry. They are beset with systemic bureaucratic incompetence, and devoid of innovation. They will fall easy prey to Mr. Musk.

Overvalued, hardly.
 
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Joe Rogan says he's moving from California to Texas for 'more freedom'
Joe Rogan moving from California to Texas for 'more freedom'
More freedom like putting people in cages for enjoying a harmless plant or keeping gay people from being married. (until SCOTUS ruled)

Honestly I find both CA and TX people to be insufferable at times. I'm sick of them both, and both states need to make changes.
Elon issued a plea to nickel miners to mine more nickel
What else would nickel miners be mining?


;)

My problem with the valuation argument is the money being spent by worldwide automotive manufacturers on electric vehicles. On this metric alone, Tesla has disrupted the automotive and petroleum industries. Only the most obtuse Luddite, cue Bob Lutz, would argue otherwise. On this basis alone, TSLA is dramatically undervalued.

Today, Elon has turned his focus and innovative leviathan toward the electric utility industry. I would ague from firsthand experience, the utilities are far less adaptable than the automotive industry. They are beset systemic bureaucratic incompetence, and devoid of innovation. They will fall easy prey to Mr. Musk.

Overvalued, hardly.
From my own first hand experience I strongly agree. They are basically like government agencies.