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Code name ..Corolla ;)

Code name: Scarab*

japanese-beetle-on-borage.jpg


"Corolla" means "flower petal" in Japanese. *Scarab is a variety of Japanese Beetle which eats flower petals...

Same way the top-of-the-line Ford F-150 is powered by a Coyote engine, and Tesla's 4680 bty pilot line in Fremont is called "Project Roadrunner". :D

Cheers to the Longs!
 
Yep, and if not for the Q2 shutdown in China I'm pretty sure both P&D would have been over 50% for the year. That shutdown really hit P&D hard.
How do you arrive at this conclusion? It seems like a stretch to say that the Q2 shutdown in China prevented 100K deliveries (which is the total number of deliveries short of 50% growth). Wouldn't this shortage have been made up in later quarters if the demand were there? And why would they have shut down production the last week of December? And why would the deliveries shortage be out of proportion to the production shortage?
 
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What clarification? IRS changing guidance slightly and Model Y 5 seat becoming eligible isnt a problem and it wouldnt happen that quickly. Safe to assume if IRS change guidance at all it will happen when the announce the battery guidance in March. So you have 3 months to take orders and maybe build up a backlog again.
So you are saying there is zero chance of Treasury issuing new guidance that is retroactive to all of 2023?
 
This in itself is concerning. Remember the list of cars that the IRS provided was supplied by Tesla. Tesla has known for a good deal longer what cars they were going to tell the IRS were eligible. If Elon hasnt been able to make decisions yet on any adjustments to the pricing and options for cars that is bad, but not nearly as bad as simply not telling prospective customers visiting Tesla.Com which cars are NOW eligible for the tax credits. Maybe he indeed attended the meeting where decision makers discussed these things and he wasnt paying attention.

I am sorry there is no valid excuse to not have Tesla.Com updated with the "Potential Savings" price not take into account the $7500 tax credit. Tesla has known for weeks what cars they said are eligible.
Tesla has never cared all that much about their website. It's often behind. Usually we found out about things here before the site was updated.
 
I think most people were assuming 50% growth now with a decline as we approach 2030.

Except that Elon specifically guided for 50% growth on average for the forseeable future, with some years possible a little less, and some years much more.

Starting at 500K in 2020, 50% average growth gets Tesla to 20M production by 2030. This specific growth target was also reinterated by Tesla's BoD Chairperson Robyn Denholm during her introductory remarks at the 2022 AGM.
 
Need to read up more on this. I wonder if something as simple as an LLC would get this credit.
Good thought. Hard to imagine otherwise. I operate under an LLC and there isn't much I can't take advantage of when it comes to vehicle purchases.

I've been planning on having my business by my CT to take advantage of the 179 loophole (hummer loophole, only 80% accelerated deprecation this year), and totally wrote off getting a tax credit under the IRA due to personal income...but looking at the commercial clean credit looks like I'd be able to collect $7500 under my LLC as well. Wow.

This also has impacts for my other reservations which were made with an idea of using them for Robotaxis or Turo etc. If the IRA is still in place when Robotaxis come online that suggests that every Tesla vehicle purchased by a business for an RT network will get the credit. I think the CBO needs to readjust their cost projections. 😂



I am sorry there is no valid excuse to not have Tesla.Com updated with the "Potential Savings" price not take into account the $7500 tax credit. Tesla has known for weeks what cars they said are eligible.
At least a note and link to the IRS page saying "some vehicles may quality, ask your accountant".
 
How do you arrive at this conclusion? It seems like a stretch to say that the Q2 shutdown in China prevented 100K deliveries (which is the total number of deliveries short of 50% growth). Wouldn't this shortage have been made up in later quarters if the demand were there? And why would they have shut down production the last week of December? And why would the deliveries shortage be out of proportion to the production shortage?
87K cars short for the year, most of which could have been in Q2 but some in Q3 too as the ramp up from the shutdown likely lowered the Q3 production a bit too.

Could have looked like this without the shutdown:

Q1: 310,048
Q2: 335,000 (254,695 actual)
Q3: 355,000 (343,830 actual)
Q4: 405,278

That would have gotten us the 50% for the year.

EDIT: One interesting aspect of looking at these numbers, you can see just how minimal the miss of 50% for the year truly was. The Q2 shutdown simply interrupted Tesla's gradual production ramp among its factories, a "speed bump" in the production ramp.
 
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People keep talking about the Big Miss on deliveries. Wasn't it made clear on an earnings call that Q4 deliveries were expected to be lower than usual due to Tesla transitioning away from "The Wave" at quarter end?

If the company tells everyone that deliveries are going to be reduced, is it really considered a miss after what they tell us to expect actually happens? 🤷‍♂️ That seems more like hitting the expectations spot on.
It isn't production and delivery that has people spooked, it's book to bill ratio ... demand going forward.
 
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I find company guidance to be such a crap-shoot , with so many variables in play simultaneously,
that it’s likely a gibberish guess estimate. Analyst estimates are just as much gibberish.
Comparing 2 gibberish to value a stock is even more of the same. Running a firm to meet
guidance in itself is probably uneconomic.

if you have to guide, Guide super conservatively because it’s unlikely everything will go right.
Something will always go wrong , even more so when you are delivering large
physical objects around the world.

Tesla did raise prices substantially in the last year, that in itself curtails demand.
As production increases, price concession are to be expected.
 
About a decade ago I/we pulled our business out of being a storage designer/manufacturer. One of the reasons I did so was because I knew we did not have the depth of capital to go head-to-head with Musk/Tesla in the space, and nor could we compensate with low labour costs. So we focussed in other places. I/we were very right to be concerned as Tesla's offering was attractive: they simply had more firepower and it showed.

Collectively the Chinese on the other hand did not step back. They have comparable depth of capital to Tesla/Musk (or far more, depending on how you view things) and they pushed ahead with moving LFP from concept to reality, reaching (now) a price/performance point that is globally relevant to the mass market for storage. (and related stuff) They primarily did that because they were motivated by the vehicle market. The term I have used for 15+ years is that there is a mobility-premium for wrapping a battery in a vehicle shell, and the market simply does not - for many very understandable reasons - want to grant that premium margin to stationary storage. So LFP was aimed at vehicles. But it is also en passant solving the storage problem which is now scaling fast.

The size of that rapidly growing mass market from year-to-year is a closely held secret, if indeed anyone knows all the puzzle pieces. I try to track it through different approaches, but it is nigh-on impossible to quantify. I'm not sure many other people have a much better understanding, however much they sell their research reports for (they used to come to me, trying to blag me to get my data for their report). As you probably know I suss out the vehicle/battery splits each year to try and keep tabs on that, enough to do some basic public domain analysis. Quantifying storage with an equivalent precision was tough. From the limited poor quality signals I could assess, until last year I thought Tesla had overwhelming dominance in the utility segment, but was less obviously dominant in the domestic segment, and there were signs that the commercial segment was a fizzle for everyone.

In the course of the last year it has become clearer from the qualitative public domain info that Tesla is no longer competitive in the domestic market. That is why apart from some special niche markets (such as the USA ..... which is why a lot of US-ians aren't reading the tea leaves well ....) Tesla has largely pulled out of attempts to grow their presence in domestic. Instead Tesla has focussed its efforts on the larger utility-scale products and projects. Now does this mean that Tesla can't sell every (domestic) Powerwall it produces: no. Does this mean the price for Powerwall's is reducing : no. So But go look in the market beyond the USA and the Tesla Powerwall is practically a dead product, swamped under a tidal wave of Chinese clones. Overall the Chinese are growing their absolute market size faster than Tesla is, and hence Tesla's market share is reducing.

Anyone who has ever read Christensen's "Innovators Dilemma" can tell you what is most likely to come next. I've spoilt things by giving my opinion. Tesla will sell every utility scale Megapack they can make for the next few years and will command a premium price for them. None of them will sell into China. Many will sell into USA or to clients in the wider western alliance who are allergic to China. But increasingly the Chinese will move upscale into the utility segment and take what in the longer term will likely become the commanding position. And then Tesla utility-scale storage margins will wither year-by-year with no path back, no matter how many turnaround plans are attempted. The projected scenario in the graphs I gave earlier are very much the high-case; the low-case is far less attractive.

Is this a logical harvesting strategy for Tesla, yes. Is it a sign of weaknesses inside Tesla, also yes. Ultimately we know that pathway is terminal in the hardware space. (Tesla keeps on saying that is has not got a capital problem, but it has been AWOL on deploying it aggressively in this space. So that means Tesla has had a leadership talent problem in this space. I'd have though that much was patently obvious given the history of what we now call Tesla Energy). Does it mean investors should worry, absolutely, because by the time storage sales revenues are that significant then also the stuffing will have been beaten out of margins.

I realise it is not popular to say this, but a corresponding story is so far playing out in the BEV market. The data shows that Tesla is year-on-year losing market share by volume, by GWh, and by revenue. I last posted this graph about 11-months ago. Clearly Tesla has put its first team into bat in the vehicle market, and the seconds are playing in the storage market (and crikey knows who are in the solar market). The first team are playing an excellent game. The second team may be about to get a second wind for a while. And the third team are playing in some 0.1% league.

The analysts who are asking questions on the quarterly call are about as dangerous as a newborn baby deer. The better-armed hunters in the market have shot off a lot of ammunition recently, and some of it has hit home - that was because they can detect a valid scent, even if they don't yet fully understand it. Tesla needs to decide whether it is predator or prey, rather than distractedly fiddling with blue feathery baubles in another room.

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Thank you very much for your well-reasoned post. It's posts like yours that make TMC valuable to me.

I am not an energy storage expert by any means, but I'd like to point out things you state that, in my mind, seem to contradict your argument that TE is dead-in-the-water before it even gets started. Maybe this is not what you're saying, but it seems that way to me. Please clarify for me what I am missing.

Here are the key statements I want to focus on: (1)"The size of that rapidly growing mass market from year-to-year is a closely held secret, if indeed anyone knows all the puzzle pieces. I try to track it through different approaches, but it is nigh-on impossible to quantify."
(2) "Quantifying storage with an equivalent precision was tough. From the limited poor quality signals I could assess, until last year I thought Tesla had overwhelming dominance in the utility segment, but was less obviously dominant in the domestic segment, and there were signs that the commercial segment was a fizzle for everyone."

With regard to statement (1), I don't think you'll get any disagreement from anyone here that a complex market like energy storage is opaque and virtually unknowable. Frankly, I feel this way about all markets. From energy prices to government incentives to cultural/language differences to decades-long intervals of time, it is indeed hard to suss out exactly where the worldwide energy market is headed. Considering we are in the nascent stages of this new industry, I feel it is premature to say with any conviction that anyone, China, US or otherwise, has lost the race to dominance; ok, China may have got the holeshot, but there are plenty of laps to go. Tesla has recently stated that battery bottlenecks are a thing of the past, or are becoming a thing of the past due to increased manufacturing rates of cells (although awfully hard to say if it's true or not), so I am willing to wait a couple of years before concluding TE is dead-in-the-water. I'm surprised you have already concluded, given the opacity of the energy industry, that TE has already lost the game during the first inning.

Regarding statement (2), when you say, "until last year," I have to stop you right there. I mean, last year might have been the most disruptive year in world industry EVER, I don't see what trends you can reliable assume from one of the most tumultuous years on record for all industries as the world was shut down. Everything was tipped upside down and turned inside-out, there is no way anyone can look at one year and conclude a domestic or international segment was won or lost by anyone. We need to wait patiently for a few years to see how all this shakes out, in my humble opinion, unless you have something much more substantial to add other than your observations of the rocky period of 2021-2022.

I'm actually in the middle of Christensen's "Innovator's Dilemma" right now. I feel as if it's hard to apply his argument to making predictions of energy storage/TE because the entire industry is rather new. Like, in my mind, this is practically a brand new technology with nearly unlimited potential, growth that hasn't even begun to be tapped, and unknowable future ramifications. Ok, China might be in the lead, but that doesn't mean other players like Tesla won't find their own niche in a gigantic worldwide market over the next few decades. I'm trying to zoom out and take a bigger view of things, that's all. I really find it impossible to predict any outcomes in energy storage at this time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, you may indeed be 100% correct. I'm just saying that because of how opaque many of these issues are as you readily admit, and because we are still in the first inning of the game and Tesla doesn't even have cell production ramped up, it is a premature to say TE is a lost cause and will fizzle to zero. Another angle you may have not considered is that Elon is connected to the highest echelons of world government and finance--he's always chatting with heads-of-state; just last week he was pictured having what appeared to be an intimate discussion with French president Macron. Elon is connected to world markets and politics like few others are. In America, with SpaceX and Tesla, Elon's companies have practically national-security-level importance. I mean, SpaceX has special satellites for the US military, and is involved in who-knows-how-many other covert operations. Elon sees things you or I will never see.

Again, I thank you for your post. But I'm going to wait and see what happens to TE over the next decade before concluding it's a lost cause. The world is infitely complex and no one knows what the future holds. I'm certainly not betting against the guy who has revolutionized rocketry and made the EV industry practically from scratch.
 
It isn't production and delivery that has people spooked, it's book to bill ratio ... demand going forward.

At least we won't have to be concerned about that then. 🙂

Rumor has it that EVs might just begin catching on in popularity after a few more years. :rolleyes:

Unless, this transition is just a fad. 🤔 /s
 
So you are saying there is zero chance of Treasury issuing new guidance that is retroactive to all of 2023?
No, but they arent going to take the credit away from people who have already purchased. Honestly why are people defending not presenting a benefit to potential customers because they are mad that the 5 seater Model Y currently doesnt get the tax credit. Or are they defending because Tesla can do no wrong and being late in updating is part of some new master plan.
 
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I find company guidance to be such a crap-shoot , with so many variables in play simultaneously,
that it’s likely a gibberish guess estimate. Analyst estimates are just as much gibberish.
Comparing 2 gibberish to value a stock is even more of the same. Running a firm to meet
guidance in itself is probably uneconomic.

if you have to guide, Guide super conservatively because it’s unlikely everything will go right.
Something will always go wrong , even more so when you are delivering large
physical objects around the world.

Tesla did raise prices substantially in the last year, that in itself curtails demand.
As production increases, price concession are to be expected.
Guidance needs to continually be revised Q-Q.
We had War, COVID, FED, Inflation , Shutdown and recession fears all in one year ....
.... and Mgmt still did not revise down ... at 3Q, master of coin said still 50%, and technoking said more than AAMCO and AAPL combined ... ;)
 
Tesla has never cared all that much about their website. It's often behind. Usually we found out about things here before the site was updated.
We arent the normal consumer. The website is where all ordering occurs. One way or another every Tesla purchaser ends up on the website. I am just stating there is a risk someone looks at Tesla site for a sedan and chooses another brand because they can get with a $7500 tax credit.
 
At least we won't have to be concerned about that then. 🙂

Rumor has it that EVs might just begin catching on in popularity after a few more years. :rolleyes:

Unless, this transition is just a fad. 🤔 /s
I think the major concern is that the transition from $40-50k vehicles to $60-70k vehicles since 2020 is a fad.

The market is figuring that prices will need to come down to move another 650,000 vehicles this year compared to last and -1,000,000 vehicles next year compared to this year
 
I find company guidance to be such a crap-shoot , with so many variables in play simultaneously,
that it’s likely a gibberish guess estimate. Analyst estimates are just as much gibberish.
Comparing 2 gibberish to value a stock is even more of the same. Running a firm to meet
guidance in itself is probably uneconomic.

if you have to guide, Guide super conservatively because it’s unlikely everything will go right.
Something will always go wrong , even more so when you are delivering large
physical objects around the world.

Tesla did raise prices substantially in the last year, that in itself curtails demand.
As production increases, price concession are to be expected.
Companies should give guidance on a scale of 1 to 10 . 1 being *sugar* 10 being fantastic. That’s all your going to get no other numbers because it confuses you.