Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Mengy]

Smoking along. It’s like watching mechanical procreation. Baby shots of our Cybertruck’s mother.

View attachment 897124

It's so beautiful.

 

[Hiline]

Tesla isn't preventing competition. Lack of will and incompetence maybe but that's not in Tesla's control.

This is probably going to be a natural monopoly. A monopoly in general is not good. For an example, you can look up what happened with Standard Oil.

The Chinese have shown they can compete. There won't be a monopoly, it's a moot point.

And you do realize that monopolies are NOT illegal, right? I encourage you to re-read the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

We've got TONS of monopolies right now - utility companies anyone?

And there are no Chinese EVs in the US because?

Right. We all know how well loved our utility companies are.

 

[bkp_duke]

This is probably going to be a natural monopoly. A monopoly in general is not good. For an example, you can look up what happened with Standard Oil.



And there are no Chinese EVs in the US because?

Right. We all know how well loved our utility companies are.

They are coming. You think CATL is building battery facilities in the USA just to service US manufs? No. Nio, Xpeng, and Vinfast (Vietnamese subsidiary of a Chinese company) are all coming.

The arguments being made about locking the Chinese out of the US market are the same ones made back in the early 80s about locking the Japanese out. How well did that turn out?

 

[unk45]

Oh we are on the path. If no one else can compete with Tesla, what do you think is going to happen?

Some competitors will learn, some will change their habits. Tesla will not ever have a monopoly in any category. It already is the largest share of many markets, but that hare will decline as others learn. They will, they always do, even when it seems unlikely. Of course some fail. It is always thus.

Just as with Apple and Amazon, those with the the best approaches gain inordinate profitability, but do not approach anything like a monopoly.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Also couldn't it be called Ludicrous to save the Plaid name for the McDaddy cars?

A while back, somebody asked Elon on twitter if there will be a Model 3 Plaid. He replied simply "Yes." BTW, Cybertuck will also have a Plaid edition, so the name isn't exclusive to Model S. I think of it more as badging, like an AMG ed. Merc, or M-power BWZ.

Not only the price but in the Tesla case the costs not significant because, according to Munro's Cory even the motors are effectively the same between Model and Model S Plaid.

Indeed, and the alumium castings themselves are identical for the front AC motor and the Plaid SRPM motor (also shown in a Munro Live video). The Model 3 was clearly designed to be upgraded to Plaid in future production.

 

[bkp_duke]

A while back, somebody asked Elon on twitter if there will be a Model 3 Plaid. He replied simply "Yes." BTW, Cybertuck will also have a Plaid edition, so the name isn't exclusive to Model S. I think of it more as badging, like an AMG ed. Merc, or M-power BWZ.

M3 Plaid would be enough for me to give up my 2018 P3D. Love that car, but would love a M3 Plaid more.

 

[Paracelsus]

As the Tesla & Elon FUD escalated throughout 2022 to Biblical levels we have not seen before, I have entertained the idea of a post with the hope of opening up dialog on TMC regarding the concept of ‘Elon vs a very specific Goliath hiding behind a cloak of Good’. But there was never a catalyst to suggest the source wasn’t simply the same-old, same-old – despite the Goliath in this fight appearing to have been growing in both scope and size. And perhaps more troubling has been that Elon’s actions through 2022 seem to convey that he has recognized this as well, and that he was in need of more ammunition if he and Tesla were to come out on top.

Since I began following TMC in 2013 there has always been the very understandable finger-pointing at the Fossil Fuel Industries, Legacy Auto Mfg’s, Grid Operators, and of course Wall Street as the sources of Tesla & Elon FUD. And I have not seen a compelling argument on TMC that it was otherwise. However, during one of the very brief moments in the last couple years where the entire US did not seem to be held captive under a mass campaign of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt through every mainstream media source simultaneously, we were introduced to yet another strange and unexpected nuance. That was the moment when we listened closely to the dialog from Washington DC surrounding the inevitable US and Global transition to EV’s and Renewable Energy, and we learned that this Administration was refusing to acknowledge Tesla’s World-leading contributions in this arena………and that they were literally struggling to not even mention the word ‘Tesla’ publicly in every single speech and interview from every leadership position on their flow chart – even while crowning Mary Barra and GM as the Golden Goose. Thus it could have only been a strategy that had been discussed internally to be so coordinated. But why?

This was perhaps too easy to shake off at first, with the plausible connections of the Administration and the UAW. Maybe they were trying to support a small segment of their voters…? That was a good explanation for a single data point. In hindsight the Administration actually seemed a bit relieved that the ‘news’ sources from the other side of the aisle helped push that UAW connection argument (assuming there really still are two sides of the aisle in the US). But it felt like there was a growing pile of data points suggesting that Elon & Tesla were fighting a battle that had become more and more coordinated against them. And here was the part I am still struggling with: if the Administration had made solving the Climate Crisis their Absolute Highest Priority during their campaign, wouldn’t they be willing to buck the UAW to save the world? Doesn’t make sense, does it? But if the highest power in the land, and arguably the highest power in the World was now ready to throw the most efficient and most effective sustainable energy and transportation company in the World under the bus while claiming their greatest ambition was to make the world’s energy and transportation more sustainable through a transition to renewable energy, then we were either living in an alternate reality to be witnessing any of this, or perhaps there was another influencer on these policies.

I have to wonder if Elon’s post from early this morning was intended to cast a larger net on the discussion of the Force(s) that could be trying to put the brakes on Tesla’s explosive growth and ownership of the overall Sustainability marketplace – a source we haven’t looked at too deeply on TMC before. It seems odd that he chose to respond to that particular tweet. And his response is unusually non-descriptive:

View attachment 888647

I do personally find this interesting, particularly from the longer view. For instance, the NUMMI plant was purchased in 2010 by Tesla with funding support from the Administration elected in 2008. So here we learn that at the time that Elon and Tesla received their loan for the creation of the Tesla factory at NUMMI that Elon had already been courted as a person capable of helping move the World closer to the goals of the World Economic Forum. But it appears Elon had other priorities on his mind, such as SpaceX and Tesla. But why wouldn’t the WEF have been a good association at that time to help advance those interests?

I remember viewing many of the short videos released by the WEF around the 2008-2010 timeframe with interest. At that time, I was very focused on finding ways to reduce energy consumption and transition towards more sustainable energy sources on a large number of State and Federal projects across the Columbia River Basin. And I found those videos interesting and occasionally helpful. In fact, that original WEF media campaign probably helped influence my first purchase of TSLA shares in 2013, whether I knew it or not. Like the WEF and many here on TMC, I too saw the potential for Elon & Tesla to help create a more sustainable future, and I invested accordingly. So if Elon & Tesla were moving in the desired direction of the WEF’s publicly stated goals at a time when the fossil fuel industry and Legacy Auto seemed so deeply entrenched in path towards a much Warmer future, why wouldn’t Elon jump at the chance?

But perhaps here is where I can see a potential for the ‘rub’ between Elon & the WEF that prevented a partnership. Tesla has moved at the rate that only a First Principles approach could have allowed it. And that approach required Tesla to abandon everything from the Old Paradigm that was not supportive of Elon/Tesla’s vision of the MOST rapid transition towards Sustainability possible. And this transition by Tesla happened SO quickly that they may very well have disrupted the WEF’s Strategic Master Plan – a plan which surely would have utilized as much of the existing Paradigm wherever possible to help transition towards the New Paradigm. While that path might take longer, it ‘could’ have been viewed by early planners as using less resources to accomplish stated goals. And it would allow much of the Old Paradigm to be the New Paradigm to minimize Political disruptions along the way. Fair enough. And that is why I mentioned 'putting the brakes on Tesla' instead of perhaps 'destroying Tesla', as the end game is still somewhat aligned - at least from the perspective of Sustainable Energy and Transport anyways.

And if we continue to explore this theory that a divergence of interest could have resulted from Elon and Tesla’s ability to move quicker than everyone else, and move in a more Sustainable direction than everyone else with fewer moves because they were coming from a First Principles approach, wouldn’t we end up in a similar place as we are now, where many of the 2008-2010 timeline tools available to the WEF to help a planned transition are at risk of being little more than stranded assets if the WEF’s strategic master plan allowed for a methodical transition to sustainability. I would expect so, since Tesla and Elon have left a path of disrupted and stranded assets in their wake. Could it be a possibility that the WEF looked to Elon to help them with their Sustainability mission and Elon found that mission was too overly-pragmatic? And that Elon simply saw the path to Sustainability could happen sooner? And that he felt that the Ultimate Priority was ensuring that transition happened as quickly as possible, since he considered the current modes of transportation and of energy creation to be “running the most dangerous experiment in history right now, which is to see how much carbon dioxide the atmosphere... can handle before there is an environmental catastrophe.”

And yet here we are today, with much of the disruption of the Old Paradigm by Tesla already behind us, and with all the Kings horses and all the Kings men trying to hold those Humpty Dumpty’s in power long enough to survive the transition that even Tony Seba told us has been well underway for many years. And we are at this moment experiencing almost ALL of the mainstream media sources absolutely, completely ‘hush’ regarding Tesla’s Lathrop plant and their Monumental opportunity to disrupt the entire Grid through the deployment of their Megapacks, Powerwalls, Solar Roofs, and the VPP with a disruption that will ultimately create a MUCH more secure Distributed Grid.

This transition point in time is fricking Yuuge, and it seems so closely aligned with some of those very early videos produced by the WEF that it is mind-blowing that Sustainability Leaders aren’t dancing in the streets at this watershed moment. And yet they aren’t. Instead we are still getting Bill Gates Hydrogen plans shoved down our throats by mainstream media instead. You know, Hydrogen – the ‘next’ bridge-fuel. Just like Natural Gas was to be. And perhaps up to 95% of our Hydrogen will initially come from that Natural Gas ‘boom’ (pun intended) that began under the Bush-Cheney administration and has continued until the Levelized Cost of Energy very fittingly ‘Levelized’ Natural Gas. And what organization is Mr. Gates closely associated with?

Recall that there was a lot of discussion on TMC regarding Tesla’s decision for its first overseas plant to be in China – and not all of it favorable. But ultimately – and perhaps by design – the China Gigafactory might have been just out of reach of too many other influences. And it was built fast. And it came on line fast. And it started contributing to Tesla’s bottom line WAY faster than anyone in the mainstream media ever expected. A record 168 working days from permits to a finished plant. And for that very reason Tesla and TSLA are still here to talk about. Was the China decision made in-part for reasons none of us were aware of? There were many folks here and analysts on TV calling for Tesla to choose Germany first. In hindsight wouldn’t that have been a complete failure given all the efforts to slow, and to even stop that project along the way? We can still only speculate who was behind those efforts to slow the plant. But with hindsight maybe its worth wondering if there a reason that Elon prioritized China over Germany? Had Elon chosen Germany over China for the first overseas plant, today’s TSLA share price - a share price that has fallen >60% - might be considered an all-time high - IF the company was even still alive. Many here on TMC speculated that German Legacy Auto could have potentially contributed to those construction delays. We do know Elon is not one to be bullied, and he took the fight to Germany with the next Gigafactory location. And from the examination of Elon’s tweet today, Germany is also the backyard of the WEF. And he did so with a war chest of Capital from the China plant, and he did so while eventually being able to sell Chinese-made Tesla’s in Germany as perhaps the final attack that smoothed the transition to Tesla’s ramping of production in Germany. And ‘IF’ Elon is tweeting today about a divergence in Mission direction with the WEF, then perhaps we should not be surprised that Tesla has probably picked Mexico over Canada for the next Gigafactory, given that many political leaders of Canada - including Trudeau himself have been specifically mentioned by the WEF as being closely aligned with their goals. And it wasn't that long ago that Elon and Trudeau were at odds on Twitter IIRC. No, Elon will not be bullied. And the success of the German Gigafactory in the backyard of the WEF and of VW/BMW/and Mercedes would be the ultimate ‘Up Yours’ if ever such an award were to be given in such a hypothetical fight. But even though Elon & Tesla ultimately won that battle, why on earth would they ever want to repeat it if their goal is to rapidly advance Sustainability. Go to Mexico and just ‘get ‘er done’.

In light of Elon’s tweet it would be helpful to hear the WEF speak out in support of Tesla and all they have accomplished towards the original WEF mission of Sustainability. And for similar reasons it would be very helpful to hear this Administration acknowledge Tesla for having done so as well. It would ultimately help to accelerate that Mission of Sustainability that both the WEF and this Administration appear to share. And it would help bring an end to the running of that ‘most dangerous experiment’ much sooner. That would also eliminate any need to consider broader reasons why Elon has had to take the fight to a larger stage through Twitter and through the ownership of Twitter. Such a motivation would certainly help explain Elon’s actions, and perhaps even his decisions to justify the otherwise unworldly expenses necessary to support those actions…..if it were in the name of continuing the absolute fastest path to Sustainability possible, regardless of however large the Goliath was in his path. All speculation & opinion of a long-time observer that is mystified at seeing such parallel Sustainability Universes appear to collide.

Last month I posted some general observations of the relationship between Elon & the World Economic Forum, and of his relationship with those influenced by the WEF organization since the inception of Tesla. I did this because that relationship seems to have morphed over time. It seems to have transitioned from one where Elon was once recruited by the WEF and may have even had some early support establishing/growing Tesla because of the alignment of goals towards reducing fossil fuel consumption...to a relationship in more recent times where Elon & Tesla may have grown too fast to fit 'the plan', and/or he may be considered a bit too rogue at this point for the WEF.

Anyone thinking that this discussion is completely irrelevant of TSLA stock price movement should think again. This matters. I bring this up because the WEF is meeting in Davos. It is a meeting of Global members to discuss the path forward for the Globe. Elon is not there. He consciously made the decision to not be a part of that group long ago. And now, over the past few days, he has responded to many comments about the WEF on Twitter that do suggest that Elon has a vision for the Globe that is not necessarily aligned with the WEF's vision. We should pay attention to this IMO.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1615751952465563650

https://twitter.com/x/status/1615753259972702208

What happens in Davos likely effects where future GF's are built and what kind of support Tesla gets in countries whose leaders are WEF members. And there is the potential that this may even effect the stock price very directly, as decisions are made regarding the development of metrics for investing in companies, such as ESG scorecards. And we all know what Elon's opinion is of ESG scoring, particularly after Tesla did not score as high as well as fossil fuel companies:

As a TSLA Long, this is very important to me. Tesla is more effective and efficient at every single phase of EV storage solutions than almost every other entity on the planet. And they have become very vertically integrated in an effort to add stability to that efficiency. And Tesla has matured to a level that would justify support from absolutely any-and-all global leadership concerned with Climate Change to act in a very direct manner to further support Tesla in any way possible given that the Tesla Machine is the most efficient use of limited resources on Earth, and that Tesla can use those resources in a manner that minimizes the Carbon Footprint and the Global Impact of the manufacturing and delivery process of a more sustainable future while reducing the arrival time at that very important goal. However that is not what we are witnessing. In fact, we appear to be seeing just the opposite, as we witnessed with the IRA and with the EV Summit, etc, Tesla falling out of favor at home under this administration. Everyone here is also well aware of Bill Gates' Short position on Tesla that doesn't seem to be aligned in any way with the desire of the WEF to reduce fossil fuel consumption. And now a fairly direct discussion by Elon of these goals, to include a poll that can be voted on by all people with access to the internet, worldwide. This last move is likely frowned upon by the WEF, as they have been rather quiet in the news, relatively speaking, at least up until now.

Does the WEF or does Elon have a global vision that is more inclusive and more desirable? And where does Tesla fit in that vision? And is the Tesla Juggernaut able to defend itself from these maturing global pressures going forward? I am anxious to hear the opinions of others on this topic. Much appreciated!

 

[unk45]

It's even better than that - it looks like, except for some moderate changes, the motor is the same throughout the line. Even the Semi uses the Plaid motors and inverters (which are just modified 3/Y motors and inverters). That level of scale efficiency should really keep other OEMs up at night.

I did not make enough detail, as you just did. Then add Octovalve, battery packaging commonality even with different suppliers, the identical OS for the entire fleet etc.
And we mentioned nothing at all about the factory OS and manufacturing process.
Then there is Tesla's ever decreasing warranty per vehicle costs.
The list does go on some time, doesn't it?
Every day, it seems, I'm learning more from people here about advantages I knew nothing about.

 

[Hiline]

Some competitors will learn, some will change their habits. Tesla will not ever have a monopoly in any category. It already is the largest share of many markets, but that hare will decline as others learn. They will, they always do, even when it seems unlikely. Of course some fail. It is always thus.

Just as with Apple and Amazon, those with the the best approaches gain inordinate profitability, but do not approach anything like a monopoly.

“They” don’t always. There have been monopolies in the past.

The reason I think Tesla is heading to monopoly is that no competitor is going to make a profit after the recent price cuts, and without cash they can’t scale production. The exception being if the Chinese makers can enter the US market. And let’s just say Chinese companies tend to carry a little bit of privacy and national security concerns.

 

[unk45]

M3 Plaid would be enough for me to give up my 2018 P3D. Love that car, but would love a M3 Plaid more.

I agree wholeheartedly. I hate big cars and only have a Model S Plaid because there was not a smaller one. I'd really love a Plaid version of a 'Hot Hatch"-sized car. For decades I had either one or another 'hot hatch' or a small sporty car like various Porsches and my all time pre-Tesla favorite, a BMW Z1.

I really hope that Tesla bolts an absurdly Plaid car the size of a, say, Peugeot e-208GT.
I would instantly buy two and wait as long as it took.

 

[wipster]

Last month I posted some general observations of the relationship between Elon & the World Economic Forum, and of his relationship with those influenced by the WEF organization since the inception of Tesla. I did this because that relationship seems to have morphed over time. It seems to have transitioned from one where Elon was once recruited by the WEF and may have even had some early support establishing/growing Tesla because of the alignment of goals towards reducing fossil fuel consumption...to a relationship in more recent times where Elon & Tesla may have grown too fast to fit 'the plan', and/or he may be considered a bit too rogue at this point for the WEF.

Anyone thinking that this discussion is completely irrelevant of TSLA stock price movement should think again. This matters. I bring this up because the WEF is meeting in Davos. It is a meeting of Global members to discuss the path forward for the Globe. Elon is not there. He consciously made the decision to not be a part of that group long ago. And now, over the past few days, he has responded to many comments about the WEF on Twitter that do suggest that Elon has a vision for the globe that is not necessarily aligned with the WEF's vision. We should pay attention to this IMO.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1615751952465563650

https://twitter.com/x/status/1615753259972702208

What happens in Davos likely effects where future GF's are built and what kind of support Tesla gets in countries whose leaders are WEF members. And there is the potential that this may even effect the stock price very directly, as decisions are made regarding the development of metrics for investing in companies, such as ESG scorecards. And we all know what Elon's opinion is of ESG scoring, particularly after Tesla did not score as high as well as fossil fuel companies:

View attachment 897127

As a TSLA Long, this is very important to me. Tesla is more effective and efficient at every single phase of EV storage solutions than almost every other entity on the planet. And they have become very vertically integrated in an effort to add stability to that efficiency. And Tesla has matured to a level that would justify support from absolutely any-and-all global leadership concerned with Climate Change to act in a very direct manner to further support Tesla in any way possible given that the Tesla Machine is the most efficient use of limited resources on Earth, and that Tesla can use those resources in a manner that minimizes the Carbon Footprint and the Global Impact of the manufacturing and delivery process of a more sustainable future while reducing the arrival time at that very important goal. However that is not what we are witnessing. In fact, as we witnessed with the IRA and with the EV Summit, etc, Tesla has fallen out of favor at home under this administration, and we appear to be seeing just the opposite. Everyone here is also well aware of Bill Gates Short position on Tesla that doesn't seem to be aligned in any way with the desire of the WEF to reduce fossil fuel consumption. And now a fairly direct discussion by Elon of these goals, to include a poll that can be voted on by all people with access to the internet, worldwide. This last move is likely frowned upon by the WEF, as they have been rather quiet in the news relatively-speaking up until now.

Does the WEF or does Elon have a global vision that is more inclusive and more desirable? And where does Tesla fit in that vision. And is the Tesla Juggernaut able to defend itself from these maturing global pressures going forward. I am anxious to hear the opinions of others on this topic. Much appreciated!

Submitted for Moderator's Choice: Posts or Particular Merit.
Especially during Davos this week, Elon's chirps are very indicative of where he stands. I'm pretty sure you found the gorilla @Paracelsus

 

[Discoducky]

Unfortunately (or more likely, by design), there's not an ready, in-the-parts-bin option to build a 500 mile range Model Y. Perhaps the becomes possible with Gen-3 4680 cells, but ~375 Wh/kg is needed. That's years off (Elon said ~400 WH/kg enables electric jets).

On the other hand, the hypothetical Model 3 Plaid I referred to upthread can be added to production quickly, built with already available parts simply by tweeting the supply chain. I suspect that gross margins on a Plaid Model 3 would be extremely attractive. So that's my interest for a new announcement in the near term, to help smooth out 2023 gross margins.

Cheers!

I'd think they'd need to beef up the Model 3 chassis to handle that incredible amount of torque.

So yeah, I'd put my hat in the ring for Plaid Model 3 if they go to F/R Gigacasts. Imagine the margins on that puppy!!!

That could be a mass market track car. Maybe Plaid S keeps the 0-60 crown, but the Plaid 3 would destroy it around Laguna Seca most likely as it is lighter. Take back the Nurburgring crown prior to Roadster as well.

 

[bkp_duke]

I'd think they'd need to beef up the Model 3 chassis to handle that incredible amount of torque.

Highland = gigacasts? (Wishful thinking on my part)

 

[Webeevdrivers]

This is so cool.

I think the people of Wyoming should get behind this and support this. It will be a huge tourist attraction within 30 years. It will look like Cuba with vintage old cars all over the place. (No one will build gassers by then so the only choice will be old refurbished gas junkers).

If they get really serious about it they could ban cell phones and enforce old rotary phones only. Make every house a museum. Go back to ice boxes instead of fridges etc. People would go there just to travel back in time.

The only problem would be going to see it as tourists would not be able to charge there with no infrastructure.

Maybe they could bus them in on old style 2 cycle greyhound busses.

Just sayin. I’d go see that.

 

[oldTAVguy]

They are coming. You think CATL is building battery facilities in the USA just to service US manufs? No. Nio, Xpeng, and Vinfast (Vietnamese subsidiary of a Chinese company) are all coming.

The arguments being made about locking the Chinese out of the US market are the same ones made back in the early 80s about locking the Japanese out. How well did that turn out?

Vinfast a Vietnamese-founded, Singaporean-based private automotive company.

 

[unk45]

“They” don’t always. There have been monopolies in the past.

The reason I think Tesla is heading to monopoly is that no competitor is going to make a profit after the recent price cuts, and without cash they can’t scale production. The exception being if the Chinese makers can enter the US market. And let’s just say Chinese companies tend to carry a little bit of privacy and national security concerns.

Please name one that has not been government mandated. I've tried to find one and cannot. Remember that monopoly is total.; just as in the eponymous game, the winner takes it ALL.
The closest I can think of have been Kodak, Xerox, General Electric, Microsoft and Amazon in the US. Of course none actually did that. Standard Oil came close and was broken as did AT&T. Neither were ever really monopolies but came close. Carnegie came close in some areas with railroads. Morris was close in England at one point. None of my examples were monopolies.

Factually no monopolistic effort succeeds, despite various close calls. In recent years in the US Microsoft probably came closest, but they ignored the internet, then later have thrived but nothing resembling monopoly.

 

[Curt Renz]

This is so cool.

I think the people of Wyoming should get behind this and support this. It will be a huge tourist attraction within 30 years. It will look like Cuba with vintage old cars all over the place. (No one will build gassers by then so the only choice will be old refurbished gas junkers).

If they get really serious about it they could ban cell phones and enforce old rotary phones only. Make every house a museum. Go back to ice boxes instead of fridges etc. People would go there just to travel back in time.

The only problem would be going to see it as tourists would not be able to charge there with no infrastructure.

Maybe they could bus them in on old style 2 cycle greyhound busses.

Just sayin. I’d go see that.

View attachment 897135

“Adapt or perish, now as ever, is nature’s inexorable imperative.” – H.G. Wells

If you have pro-fossil fuel and/or pro-ICE legislators, remind them of this warning from Wells and others. I did.

 

[thesmokingman]

Please name one that has not been government mandated. I've tried to find one and cannot. Remember that monopoly is total.; just as in the eponymous game, the winner takes it ALL.
The closest I can think of have been Kodak, Xerox, General Electric, Microsoft and Amazon in the US. Of course none actually did that. Standard Oil came close and was broken as did AT&T. Neither were ever really monopolies but came close. Carnegie came close in some areas with railroads. Morris was close in England at one point. None of my examples were monopolies.

Factually no monopolistic effort succeeds, despite various close calls. In recent years in the US Microsoft probably came closest, but they ignored the internet, then later have thrived but nothing resembling monopoly.

Microsoft is a monopoly at 76% of desktop OS market share. And nothing happens. They did in the past flex their muscles on competitors and have been penalized for it yet, they still own the market.

 

[Hiline]

Please name one that has not been government mandated. I've tried to find one and cannot. Remember that monopoly is total.; just as in the eponymous game, the winner takes it ALL.
The closest I can think of have been Kodak, Xerox, General Electric, Microsoft and Amazon in the US. Of course none actually did that. Standard Oil came close and was broken as did AT&T. Neither were ever really monopolies but came close. Carnegie came close in some areas with railroads. Morris was close in England at one point. None of my examples were monopolies.

Factually no monopolistic effort succeeds, despite various close calls. In recent years in the US Microsoft probably came closest, but they ignored the internet, then later have thrived but nothing resembling monopoly.

I think we’re agreeing on this. The government will intervene if there are signs of a monopoly.

 

[ElectricIAC]

They are coming. You think CATL is building battery facilities in the USA just to service US manufs? No. Nio, Xpeng, and Vinfast (Vietnamese subsidiary of a Chinese company) are all coming.

The arguments being made about locking the Chinese out of the US market are the same ones made back in the early 80s about locking the Japanese out. How well did that turn out?

Isn’t polestar owned by Geely?