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There is no guarantee that highland is actually something that will happen. Maybe project highland started off as just a redesign of the model 3 to make it easier to manufacture, or cheaper... and then it snowballed into the unboxing approach. That might mean we dont see *anything* come of what we think of as highland, and that we will not see what it morphed into until model 2/mexico.

Tesla are very practical, and if one of their initiatives led them down a more interesting and scalable future path, Elon would likely be very comfortable with that result. You only have to look at how often spacex build something, then just break it apart and then build something else differently a few weeks later!

What I'm more focused on as an investor:
1) Semi production & deliveries
2) Progress on cybertruck

Model 3/Y are cash-printing machines that work just great. I'd rather see brand extension to semi/pickup truck sectors that get distracted with a relativley minor cost-adjustment to the 3 right now.
 
Model 3/Y are cash-printing machines that work just great. I'd rather see brand extension to semi/pickup truck sectors that get distracted with a relativley minor cost-adjustment to the 3 right now.
Disagree.

If Highland is "Unboxed", and Tesla is able to get it out there within 6-9 months, this will have a massive impact on Tesla's profitability, Tesla's growth, and the market as a whole.

Right now, there isn't much beyond speculating, but there are good reasons just rumors of the lower priced Tesla cause the stock to leap. If Tesla can bring the base Model 3 price around $30k with a US $7,500 rebate, and is able to produce the sort of volume of cars Unboxed production hints at, it is huge.

Perhaps it isn't anything more than just an experiment. But if it is, it's a big deal.
 
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Disagree.

If Highland is "Unboxed", and Tesla is able to get it out there within 6-9 months, this will have a massive impact on Tesla's profitability, Tesla's growth, and the market as a whole.

Right now, there isn't much beyond speculating, but there are good reasons just rumors of the lower priced Tesla cause the stock to leap. If Tesla can bring the base Model 3 price around $30k with a US $7,500 rebate, and is able to produce the sort of volume of cars Unboxed production hints at, it is huge.

Perhaps it isn't anything more than just an experiment. But if it is, it's a big deal.
I don't think Highland needs to be "Unboxed" to achieve the following:-
  • Lower COGs
  • Higher volume production from the same factory footprint
  • Higher employee productivity.
  • Standardization of parts across 3/Y/Cybertruck and Gen3
The caveat here is that if paint is the limiting factor, higher volume production might not be possible, but the other 3 benefits still apply.
.
 
According to rumours Shanghai has made some preparations for Highland and some processes have already been optimised

Agree, Project "Highland" is almost certainly the cut-over of the existing Model 3 architecture to front gigacastings. Recently, we heard a 3rd-party claim from China that Giga Shanghai would increase annual production capacity to 1.2M vehicles per year. Given that Model Y has 2 lines already recently upgraded, and recent monthly production splits between 3/Y, this extra capacity is very likely to come on the Model 3 side. And that means gigacastings.

TL;dr "Highland" is likely Model 3 front gigacastings, starting in 2023 Q2, at both Fremont and Shanghai.

P.S. if Tesla has an IRA incentive issue for Model 3 SR+ with MiC CATL bty packs, they can simply switch U.S. destination cars back over to the 2170 SR+ packs previously made at Giga Nevada. Export cars for Canada and Mexico can continue to use the LFP packs.
Indeed, if there's an oversupply of CATL packs, it's an opportunity to release a Model Y SR+ w. LFP to Canada, where it might JUST squeeze under the price cap for the $5,000 Cdn Federal rebate for EVs. This would stoke demand in a way I can not stress enough. Yuge.
 
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Ok, I’m prepared to get blasted. Ford is building a plant outside Mason, Tn to build electric vehicles. It is larger than Gigatexas. Ground up designed for electric vehicle production. Tennessee labor(no unions). I think Ford gets it.
You are making an assumption. GM's plant in Tennessee is UAW. It will be up to the workers to decide whether to go with UAW, some other union, or no union.
 
Wow, I applaud you for your response; you put in 1000x effort more than a survey deserves... 😆
I want to put my thoughts out there because there’s a lot of wealth and influence in the readership of this forum and also because these silly surveys end up getting spread by journalists and even well-intentioned investors who have real concerns, and I believe that’s probably how @aubreymcfato felt when contributing the link to the article.

I do agree with you, and as investors we do need to be careful about how to weight data and evaluate. It's not easy, but these kinds of surveys are pretty much the worst.
Right. I’m a strong believer in the power of science and empiricism and I want to help people avoid thinking traps and understand the hierarchy of usefulness of different data sources. This includes realizing that sometimes data is actively misleading if not examined rigorously. Survey question responses frequently differ from actual human behavior for many reasons, and there’s always problems with obtaining a representative sample of people to respond in the first place. Talk (such as clicking a multiple choice button on an online survey) is cheap and $50,000 car purchases are not, and it’s the latter we’re concerned about anyway.

So, here is for the forum’s consideration some actual useful data on those $50k purchases and well done analysis published by the San Francisco Standard on Feb 20th, using official data from the California Energy Commission, which can be accessed directly via their wonderful interactive dashboard.

1679620922743.png


This is very relevant because California is the largest and most important state car market in America, it’s one of the most Democratic-leaning states, and it’s arguably the single-most culturally influential state in the country. Here’s some hard facts and numbers to demonstrate California’s status as a political stronghold for the Democratic Party, courtesy of Wikipedia.

1679622104861.png


In the 2016 United States presidential election, California had the third highest percentage of Democratic votes behind the District of Columbia and Hawaii. In the 2020 United States presidential election, it had the 6th highest behind the District of Columbia, Vermont, Massachusetts, Maryland, and Hawaii. According to the Cook Political Report, California contains five of the 15 most Democratic congressional districts in the United States.

The Democrats also now hold a supermajority in both houses of the state legislature. There are 62 Democrats and 18 Republicans in the Assembly; and 32 Democrats and 8 Republicans in the Senate.

Democrats have won all of California's [US Presidential election] electoral votes for the last eight elections, starting in 1992.

Following the 2018 midterm House elections, Democrats won 46 out of 53 congressional house seats in California, leaving Republicans with seven.

Furthermore, it’s important to note:

1) CA leads the USA and most of the entire planet in EV adoption​
2) The two biggest urban areas in CA around San Francisco and Los Angeles are extremely D-dominated relative to the rest of the USA and even relative to the rest of the state​

If there were anywhere in the entire country and world where I would be concerned about seeing negative Tesla demand impacts of some of Elon’s more right-wing political views and his vocal criticisms of the current state of the Democratic Party that he has been expressing recently, it would be the LA and SF metro areas. Actually, I would especially look at the SF area because it leads California in EV adoption rates, because it is possibly the #1 most liberal area of the nation depending on where you want to draw the metro area boundaries, and because it's the one small region of the entire world that is most likely to contain people who care about what's been happening with Elon and his Twitter acquisition, his public criticism of local officials in Fremont and Alameda County, and his other recent extracurricular activities.

Fortunately, the data shows absolutely zero cause for concern (in the aggregate, anyway). As a matter of fact, it indicates wildly raging demand for Tesla vehicles that is at an all-time high with a robust trend for continued growth in the future, and this is especially true for the Bay Area as noted by The Standard:

But residents of the Bay Area buy far more ZEVs per capita [than LA area residents]. In total, the nine-county region around the SF Bay purchased 118 ZEVs per 10,000 residents in 2022. That’s more than double the statewide average of 50. And Bay Area counties took six of the top 10 slots for ZEV sales last year. In fact, San Francisco narrowly beat out Los Angeles as the seventh-ranking county in terms of per-capita ZEV sales—an impressive showing given that SF has the lowest rate of vehicle ownership in the state…

1679618870325.png

(Red dots indicate Bay Area counties)


1679619189055.png

(Red circle indicates Bay Area)

At our Silicon Valley TMC investor meetup in February, I learned from @EinSV that San Mateo County now has 25% of all new vehicle purchases being Teslas. 1 out of 4, almost unbelievable. Indeed, per the CA Energy Commision dashboard, in San Mateo County in 2022 Tesla sold 11,320 cars out of 13,711 total BEVs (83% share) and 46,696 total vehicles (24.2% share). At a global scale, this market share would already put Tesla close to the 20M/year goal (this is not a reasonable extrapolation but it serves to give a sense of scale.) San Mateo contains much of Silicon Valley and tends to vote about 75% in favor of Democrats in most elections. Per Wikipedia, “Every city, town, and unincorporated area of San Mateo County has more registered Democrats than Republicans.”

The SF Standard continues:
Nearly two-thirds of all ZEVs purchased in California last year were Teslas, giving the company its largest market share since statewide sales climbed into the thousands more than a decade ago. Teslas were the top-selling ZEVs in nearly every county in the state, with the exception of a handful of counties where residents bought a combined less than 20 ZEVs in total.

1679619711976.png


This chart is critical because California's regulatory environment has made it the #1 hotbed in America for other car companies to sell compliance EVs at a loss in order to be eligible to participate in the state's absurdly lucrative automotive market. Despite facing this extreme handicap of competing against companies willing to price EVs at levels that generate negative gross profit margin, Tesla is still outselling everyone else combined and is steadily gaining EV market share. Let that sink in. This is just embarrassing. Also consider what this implies for the oft-repeated arguments that more competition and BEV options will reduce Tesla's competitiveness. California already has a lot of EV options, including many models that are not available for sale in significant numbers anywhere else in the nation, and California also has a decent charging non-Tesla infrastructure relative to almost all markets in the world, and yet...Tesla dominates.

For anyone who still wants to express concern about "Elon's antics", please describe your reasoning for why California and SF/SoCal are somehow not representative of EV adoption and leftist political trends in the rest of the country, or alternatively describe why you think this trend is going to reverse in the future despite having already continued unabated through the entire pandemic and Twitter saga.

Also, anyone who was surprised by Tesla's decision to double down on developing an engineering presence in Silicon Valley instead of Texas may want to take some time to sit down and have a deep meditation session to ponder why you're placing so much weight on politics instead of other factors related to the business. Palo Alto was a clear winning choice and Austin will not be on the same level for a very long time, if ever. Other locales have intensely competed with SV for decades to wrest away some of its magic and tech dominance and every attempt has, thus far, failed. Tesla was born in Silicon Valley and though it's going global now, it's still a Silicon Valley software and computer engineering company at its core and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
 
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P.S. if Tesla has an IRA incentive issue for Model 3 SR+ with MiC CATL bty packs, they can simply switch U.S. destination cars back over to the 2170 SR+ packs previously made at Giga Nevada. Export cars for Canada and Mexico can continue to use the LFP packs.
Indeed, if there's an oversupply of CATL packs, it's an opportunity to release a Model Y SR+ w. LFP to Canada, where it might JUST squeeze under the price cap for the $5,000 Cdn Federal rebate for EVs. This would stoke demand in a way I can not stress enough. Yuge.
Europe is working on its own response to the IRA and seriously do not be surprised if Canada does something that mimics it in terms of not subsidizing battery minerals and components from China/Russia/North Korea/Iran.

If the belief is that Canadian taxpayer money will be used to continue subsidizing further monopolization of the battery supply chain by these countries, I would not bet on it. Canada wants to be a leader in this new energy era insofar as supplying critical battery minerals and manufacturing the components, and I think both our countries and our friends will be pushing further away from those entities of concern.

Wrestling the battery supply chain away from those countries is almost entirely the point of this legislation. We want lithium, graphite, and other critical minerals summoned from our soil by our labour and then manufactured into components in our facilities by our labour.
 

“A price war is not a long-term solution”, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers wrote in an article published on its WeChat account.

Automakers should work harder on technology and branding while local governments should also use “appropriate methods” while promoting and stabilising the economy, CAAM added.

Note Tesla is not a member of this association, while pretty much every big Chinese car manufacturer such as BYD and international brand such as VW is a member.
 
This is not a “loss” as most people would think of “loss” if $10K disappeared from their checking account. This is balance sheet stuff as Ford retools in massive fashion. It’s what most would call investment as Ford shifts from essentially one type of production to the type that is the only way any carmaker will stay in business.
If any of you think Ford’s EV lines were going to be profitable from the beginning, you don’t understand large-scale manufacturing at all.
Tesla approached this an entirely different, and brilliant way. But it was a different kind of company from established automakers. They have to do it this way, to greater and lesser degrees. And on paper, some will incur massive “losses.” Others currently may look very similar if they split out EV numbers as Ford did here.
And some may not survive.
But I can guarantee you any that do not make such investments aren’t going to.
This is nonsense. Investment in capital items like plants and equipment do not hit the profit and loss statement directly (only through depreciation and COGS) and therefore do not generate a significant direct accounting loss. So if they are showing a $2+ billion loss, than that really is a $2+ billion loss. I mean sure, some portion of that is R&D expense and scaling up labor expense etc, but most of it is straight inefficient losses. Now Tesla experienced losses for a long time as well while scaling up, but not at the pace of $2+ billion in a single year.
 
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A question. I use TD Ameritrade. With the recent Charles Schwab rumours I did a little research. Security held at brokers should belong to the investors, however, since the broker loans out shares at times, it’s not 1 to 1.

Came across this at Investpedia

While securities held in street name are safe for retail investors, direct registration may be a better choice for larger investors. Stocks held in street name may be loaned to short-sellers and resold to others. So, it is possible for more than one person to own shares held in street name. If the brokerage should fail, it may not be possible to recover 100% of all securities. Investors are protected by up to $500,000 in insurance from the SIPC, but that may not be enough for high-net-worth individuals and large organizations.

My question is how big is this risk? that we won’t get close to 100percent if Schwab goes down.
 
I want to put my thoughts out there because there’s a lot of wealth and influence in the readership of this forum and also because these silly surveys end up getting spread by journalists and even well-intentioned investors who have real concerns, and I believe that’s probably how @aubreymcfato felt when contributing the link to the article.


Right. I’m a strong believer in the power of science and empiricism and I want to help people avoid thinking traps and understand the hierarchy of usefulness of different data sources. This includes realizing that sometimes data is actively misleading if not examined rigorously. Survey question responses frequently differ from actual human behavior for many reasons, and there’s always problems with obtaining a representative sample of people to respond in the first place. Talk (such as clicking a multiple choice button on an online survey) is cheap and $50,000 car purchases are not, and it’s the latter we’re concerned about anyway.

So, here is for the forum’s consideration some actual useful data on those $50k purchases and well done analysis published by the San Francisco Standard on Feb 20th, using official data from the California Energy Commission, which can be accessed directly via their wonderful interactive dashboard.

View attachment 920754

This is very relevant because California is the largest and most important state car market in America, it’s one of the most Democratic-leaning states, and it’s arguably the single-most culturally influential state in the country. Here’s some hard facts and numbers to demonstrate California’s status as a political stronghold for the Democratic Party, courtesy of Wikipedia.

View attachment 920759



Furthermore, it’s important to note:

1) CA leads the USA and most of the entire planet in EV adoption​
2) The two biggest urban areas in CA around San Francisco and Los Angeles are extremely D-dominated relative to the rest of the USA and even relative to the rest of the state​

If there were anywhere in the entire country and world where I would be concerned about seeing negative Tesla demand impacts of some of Elon’s more right-wing political views and his vocal criticisms of the current state of the Democratic Party that he has been expressing recently, it would be the LA and SF metro areas. Actually, I would especially look at the SF area because it leads California in EV adoption rates, because it is possibly the #1 most liberal area of the nation depending on where you want to draw the metro area boundaries, and because it's the one small region of the entire world that is most likely to contain people who care about what's been happening with Elon and his Twitter acquisition, his public criticism of local officials in Fremont and Alameda County, and his other recent extracurricular activities.

Fortunately, the data shows absolutely zero cause for concern (in the aggregate, anyway). As a matter of fact, it indicates wildly raging demand for Tesla vehicles that is at an all-time high with a robust trend for continued growth in the future, and this is especially true for the Bay Area as noted by The Standard:



View attachment 920716
(Red dots indicate Bay Area counties)


View attachment 920721
(Red circle indicates Bay Area)

At our Silicon Valley TMC investor meetup in February, I learned from @EinSV that San Mateo County now has 25% of all new vehicle purchases being Teslas. 1 out of 4, almost unbelievable. Indeed, per the CA Energy Commision dashboard, in San Mateo County in 2022 Tesla sold 11,320 cars out of 13,711 total BEVs (83% share) and 46,696 total vehicles (24.2% share). At a global scale, this market share would already put Tesla close to the 20M/year goal (this is not a reasonable extrapolation but it serves to give a sense of scale.) San Mateo contains much of Silicon Valley and tends to vote about 75% in favor of Democrats in most elections. Per Wikipedia, “Every city, town, and unincorporated area of San Mateo County has more registered Democrats than Republicans.”

The SF Standard continues:


View attachment 920724

This chart is critical because California's regulatory environment has made it the #1 hotbed in America for other car companies to sell compliance EVs at a loss in order to be eligible to participate in the state's absurdly lucrative automotive market. Despite facing this extreme handicap of competing against companies willing to price EVs at levels that generate negative gross profit margin, Tesla is still outselling everyone else combined and is steadily gaining EV market share. Let that sink in. This is just embarrassing. Also consider what this implies for the oft-repeated arguments that more competition and BEV options will reduce Tesla's competitiveness. California already has a lot of EV options, including many models that are not available for sale in significant numbers anywhere else in the nation, and California also has a decent charging non-Tesla infrastructure relative to almost all markets in the world, and yet...Tesla dominates.

For anyone who still wants to express concern about "Elon's antics", please describe your reasoning for why California and SF/SoCal are somehow not representative of EV adoption and leftist political trends in the rest of the country, or alternatively describe why you think this trend is going to reverse in the future despite having already continued unabated through the entire pandemic and Twitter saga.

Also, anyone who was surprised by Tesla's decision to double down on developing an engineering presence in Silicon Valley instead of Texas may want to take some time to sit down and have a deep meditation session to ponder why you're placing so much weight on politics instead of other factors related to the business. Palo Alto was a clear winning choice and Austin will not be on the same level for a very long time, if ever. Other locales have intensely competed with SV for decades to wrest away some of its magic and tech dominance and every attempt has, thus far, failed. Tesla was born in Silicon Valley and though it's going global now, it's still a Silicon Valley software and computer engineering company at its core and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
Preface: the following does border on politix briefly, but personal experience moreso, intersecting
with Silicon Valley tech-bro stuff from a "greybeard" perspective, but I will try to loop this
back to Tesla investors, more germane to this forum.

I'm a progressive-socialist Tesla driver in San Francisco, born and raised here and in the above-mentioned San Mateo county slightly south in suburbia, Berkeley for grad school, then returning to SF both to avoid a commute to Silicon Valley (NASA Ames Research Center, Adobe, and elsewhere) and to raise kids in SF, of all places. As a stay-at-home dad, I retired early partly due to holding stock in AAPL, even though I never worked there (having interviewed with Steve Jobs but turning Apple/NeXT down, another story).

I do "resemble the remark" of being concerned with Mr. Musk's antics, but I separate, with
some difficulty, he from Tesla. I reported to this forum about seeing Elon in action at the recent
shareholder-related federal trial here in town. Pre-Covid shutdown, I hung a bit at the bar/pizza space
in the Twitter building, but denizens there are all 1/2 my age so I just remain "amused" about it all.

So, Teslas are indeed thick around here as the statistics you cite state. It's practical to we who started
out with the Prius as a "gateway drug", and even to those of us former longhair anti-war protesters who drove VWs and hitchhiked in a previous era. Although I was late to the Tesla car milieu (2018 Model 3, now obsolete, ha!), I've never had issues with the machine itself, so would likely re-buy years from now and meanwhile recommend Tesla to leftist friends.

Whither Elon's antics and Texas? Although the media is opportunistic at every step of the way,
that stuff doesn't matter to me and others who can separate Tesla fanperson stuff from his execrable
non-PC public commentary. For all I know, it's all an act to cater to future good-ol-boy Cybrtruck
drivers who want to fit gun-racks to their pseudo- armored personnel carriers. But hey, I know pickup
trucks are rife in suburbia, so no loss to shareholders.

To me Elon is an oft-times naive relative youngster but in the mold of Steve Jobs, aspirational
in different ways. Jobs was actually a quiet Buddhist but stern with co-workers, similar to Musk I hear.
Apple doesn't reveal much about future product until revealed, and Tesla is learning lessons
about such. Tesla, like Apple, has a "deep bench" of both technologists and managers, so I
don't think TSLA is defined entirely by Elon, just as AAPL was not defined by [email protected] -- witness the share price in the Tim Cook era since then.

Is Tesla a threat or a menace to PC (er, "woke" folk)? I'm as woke as they come but my
investment in Tesla is about the planet, not the CEO figurehead. I would never invest
in Exxon or big-tobacco just for the ill-gotten profits. TSLA, like AAPL, grew from
"beleaguered" to something beyond, like juggernauts do.

Silicon Valley remains nonpareil in both harvesting and harboring engineering talent;
I agree that the trend will continue.
 
A question. I use TD Ameritrade. With the recent Charles Schwab rumours I did a little research. Security held at brokers should belong to the investors, however, since the broker loans out shares at times, it’s not 1 to 1.

Came across this at Investpedia

While securities held in street name are safe for retail investors, direct registration may be a better choice for larger investors. Stocks held in street name may be loaned to short-sellers and resold to others. So, it is possible for more than one person to own shares held in street name. If the brokerage should fail, it may not be possible to recover 100% of all securities. Investors are protected by up to $500,000 in insurance from the SIPC, but that may not be enough for high-net-worth individuals and large organizations.

My question is how big is this risk? that we won’t get close to 100percent if Schwab goes down.
What Schwab rumors? I haven’t heard anything in the past few days. Link?
 
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Reactions: Krugerrand
A question. I use TD Ameritrade. With the recent Charles Schwab rumours I did a little research. Security held at brokers should belong to the investors, however, since the broker loans out shares at times, it’s not 1 to 1.

Came across this at Investpedia

While securities held in street name are safe for retail investors, direct registration may be a better choice for larger investors. Stocks held in street name may be loaned to short-sellers and resold to others. So, it is possible for more than one person to own shares held in street name. If the brokerage should fail, it may not be possible to recover 100% of all securities. Investors are protected by up to $500,000 in insurance from the SIPC, but that may not be enough for high-net-worth individuals and large organizations.

My question is how big is this risk? that we won’t get close to 100percent if Schwab goes down.
My own bias: Schwab is my only "bank" (for ATM access, check-writing, hardly used), and
brokerage activity for IRA accounts, etc. Although Schwab's brokerage account assets are
supposedly firewall-protected from their (much smaller) bank subsidiary, you posit that this
is not strictly true. However, I understand that if your account(s) are non-marginable, they
cannot use your stock positions held in "street name" for short-sell loans without your
permission (and a negotiable lending fee.)

Please be aware that last week during the regional bank meltdown that Schwab had *inflows* of
multiple billions of $ from affected banks, so it's a safe haven from institutions that loan funds
for mortgages etc.
 
What I'm more focused on as an investor:
1) Semi production & deliveries
2) Progress on cybertruck
Agree completely. To add to that I am curious about sustained demand for cybertruck. Oh how I would be so much more comfortable if they did both a conventional pick up alongside the cybertruck. Lots of reservations, but I wonder how many people are like me, with zero intention of ever buying one? What is the market for unconventional massive pick ups. No one knows yet, we soon will.
2023.6.9 starts rolling out the Tesla-Vision based USS replacement aka. Park Distance Control with a 360 distance measure all around the vehicle generated from the camera images.

Here's how it looks in action:

View attachment 920835
Image Source: @kaloo79 / Twitter
Oh why not Birds Eye view? This looks like a colecovision compared to other automakers Xbox one x.
 
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Reactions: MartinAustin
Agree completely. To add to that I am curious about sustained demand for cybertruck. Oh how I would be so much more comfortable if they did both a conventional pick up alongside the cybertruck. Lots of reservations, but I wonder how many people are like me, with zero intention of ever buying one? What is the market for unconventional massive pick ups. No one knows yet, we soon will.

Oh why not Birds Eye view? This looks like a colecovision compared to other automakers Xbox one x.

isn't it birds eye view already just in vector space not photo/video-realistic?

tbh - I'm not sure what I'd prefer, but birds-eye with cameras is never as clean and easy to read as this.