Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Thanks for this but no matter what facts you present some people just can't accept the reality of a period of rapid change.

View attachment 934894


That pic has been discussed a bunch in here... while both are real pics they are used by some to greatly overestimate how quickly cars replaced horses OTHER than in parades in NYC.

Even in NYC horses remained in fairly common use for over 20 years after that second picture (still numbering in the tens of thousands)... and in much of the country remained in common use until roughly the mid-late 1940s with the huge post-war manufacturing boom and economic expansion.

Likewise EVs will likely be the majority of new vehicles sold by the end of this decade, but they won't be the majority of vehicles on the road for at least another decade beyond that, and won't be "almost all" vehicles for another decade past THAT (even Elon has cited that as the rough timeline for fleet replacement)....putting us around 2050....putting us at roughly 30-40 years for the transition (depending if you want to start with the Leaf/roadster/model S as your start...or the EV1) which is...not much different from the horse one really time-wise.
 
Last edited:
That pic has been discussed a bunch in here... while both are real pics they are used by some to greatly overestimate how quickly cars replaced horses OTHER than in parades in NYC.

Even in NYC horses remained in fairly common use for over 20 years after that second picture (still numbering in the tens of thousands)... and in much of the country remained in common use until roughly the mid-late 1940s with the huge post-war manufacturing boom and economic expansion.

Likewise EVs will likely be the majority of new vehicles sold by the end of this decade, but they won't be the majority of vehicles on the road for at least another decade beyond that, and won't be "almost all" vehicles for another decade past THAT (even Elon has cited that as the rough timeline for fleet replacement)....putting us around 2050....putting us at roughly 30-40 years for the transition (depending if you want to start with the Leaf/roadster/model S as your start...or the EV1) which is...not much different from the horse one really time-wise.

While that may be true, I have to say I'm surprised how many EV's I see on the roads today. Tons of Tesla's here in PA but I'm also seeing many Mach-E's, Ioniq 5's, ID4's, a few Polestar 2's now and then, and Rivian's are starting to pop up almost daily too. The ratio of ICE cars to EV cars on the roads here in PA are converging rapidly.
 
Here is the response I got from my friend who I sent "more information about electrification" as requested.



... and my brief reply... yeah, yeah, I know :rolleyes: where is the beating a dead horse emoji?

It turned out as a fairly comprehensive tome that might be useful for others, so I'm sharing it with y'all too.

Enjoy

(begin copy)

If you would take time to read though this and consider the info I'd appreciate it.

I'm sharing it because you are a friend, not because I'm on a soapbox. I don't have anything to gain by taking time to do this.

You have my promise this will be the last novel you will see about this from me. 😁 If it inspires you to learn more, you will find plenty of information elsewhere.


Electric vehicles:
  • Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) is less expensive over 5 years than the best selling ICE vehicle (Toyota Corolla)
  • have fewer maintenance hassles
  • offer higher reliability
  • improve throughout ownership with over the air updates (most recalls, performance increases, new features, etc. are automatically updated via software without leaving your garage)
  • have better performance (the fastest production vehicles are electric and the least expensive BEVs outperform most of the ICE fleet)
  • have more useful features*
  • don't require advertising to sell the product**
(edit: not sure why the below got formatted as a quote, it isn't)

Tesla has never advertised their products. They depend upon word of mouth only. It is difficult to imagine how this one auto maker whose stock has the largest market cap of all auto makers, and whose profit margin is the highest of all auto makers (ICE and BEV) is somehow being "shoved down" anyone's throat. Particularly when all of their profits are being spent on research and development, expanding production, and streamlining their manufacturing processes.

The oil and gas industry:
  • spends a significant portion of their profits on advertising and on the lobbying of legislators (as do the legacy auto manufacturers)
  • receives more billions in annual subsidies from state and federal government than do all the sustainable energy groups combined
These facts indicate the exact opposite of your statement. They don't call the US Dollar the "Petro-Dollar" for nothing. Oil, and the industries it supports have been the most significant controlling factor of US government policy for decades.


Despite this level of influence and control over the policies and narrative that Big Oil and Big Auto wield, more and more of those shopping for and purchasing new cars are finding a better value offered by electric vehicle manufacturers. This is not a fad. Gas cars are going away. They are going away now. Here's why.

They are going away because there is an alternative that has a lower TCO, is more reliable, and provides a better ownership experience.

As of Q1 of this year the best selling (gas or electric) SUV in the US and Europe is the Tesla Model Y.


The fastest growing segment of the auto industry is the battery electric vehicle. The BEV percentage of all cars sold globally is growing exponentially, not linearly.


Battery Electric Vehicles share of global car market over time:
  • 2% share in 2018;
  • 4% share in 2020;
  • 8% share in 2021;
  • 14% share in 2022

This growing trend is doubling the BEV share of the global auto market every 1 to 2 years. At this astounding rate BEV sales will be at 50% share of new cars sold in only three or four years, and is expected to be 80% of the new vehicle market by ~2030, if not sooner.

The really crazy thing is how, back in 2013, Elon Musk outlined a plan to reach these exact goals and has been spot on with hitting those targets for ten years. This transition away from fossil fuel cars is based upon a decade old plan with an unprecedented success rate over the long haul.


The ICE vehicle manufacturers have been stagnant in their research and development for decades, riding on technology that has not taken advantage of new developments. This is why there was a "chip shortage." The chip manufacturers have significantly reduced production of old technology chips that the ICE OEMs depend upon. The chip manufacturers shut down those lines when the ICE OEMs canceled orders during COVID, and they replaced those aging lines with modern chip production facilities making modern chips for other customers. The ICE manufacturers and their supply chain were using ten+ year old tech and did not have the necessary talent to create replacement modules using current technology electronic components.


Heck, I've been waiting on Ford to deliver a Transmission Control Unit for my car since October of last year for a warranty repair on a 2015 model. They tell me that maybe this month it may finally arrive. I'm fortunate the car can be driven, else I'd have been doing without a vehicle for seven months while waiting on parts from the factory. Legacy OEMs are struggling in this new age.



Electric vehicles are becoming dominant simply because they make sense. Electric vehicles cost less over their lifetime, have 90% fewer moving parts to fail, you can fill it up at home while you sleep, and in the not too distant future they may not even have a steering wheel and will carry us to our destination autonomously. This is what drives sales of BEVs without even mentioning the climate, or the health benefits.

A similar change is happening in the production of energy. Use of solar panels, wind generation, and large scale battery storage are replacing fossil fuel power plants all over the world at a growing pace, simply because it costs less to make power this way. Getting away from the pollution is just a side benefit. Texas and California are the leading states in this transition in the US.

These are facts that are easily verified. Those who are aware of this will be in a better position to benefit than those who won't take time to verify whether there are any actual facts supporting the stories they base their decisions upon.

Hopefully you will see this more clearly as the evidence of this change stacks up around you. The numbers tell the story for anyone willing to set aside preconceived notions and rhetoric such as "gas hating portion of government" and who will give the information an honest look before dismissing it out of hand.

Thanks for taking the time. I'd rather try to share this now than look back someday wishing I had.

Let me know if I can help with more info, otherwise I'll let it be.
(end copy)
I agree that this post about the advantages of Tesla is excellently thought out and written. I believe it is a mistake to dismiss the comment about EV’s being “shoved down peoples’ throats” however. That perception is not being created by Tesla; it is being created by government with all of this mandating and forbidding.



People are buying Teslas because they want them and they are a superior product in most ways. The transition to electric vehicles is happening because the value of an EV incentivizes their purchase. I believe this transition would continue without the heavy hand of the government pushing people. That approach generates resentment and resistance, and will, I believe, end up slowing the transition to electrification.



People did not transition from horses to cars because the government forced them to. The advantages of the car were obvious, and became more so as the cars improved. If the government people had any confidence in the technology of EVs, they would not feel the need to shove people into electric cars against their will. All of this banning of ICE vehicles is only creating angry resistance which makes a lot of people not WANT to even look at an electric car.



Tesla’s approach: create a superior product and let it sell itself, is clearly working. If the government idiots would only let this transition happen because people want to change, it will go much more smoothly.
 
There is so much still to go for mass adoption of EVs and for stubborn people to get around it

For example, Carwow released a short video of the new track package on Instagram. I get it that those who follow Carwow are car enthusiasts, but you have to scroll pretty far down to find one positive comment, it's one braindead take after another

Carwow, Autogehful and other youtubers all driving the same Plaid w/ Track Pack at the Circuit De Paul Ricard on the same day? That is MARKETING and obviously Tesla must be doing that, at some tangible cost to the company. However it is not ADVERTISING. Hope we now see the difference 😀
 
I agree that this post about the advantages of Tesla is excellently thought out and written. I believe it is a mistake to dismiss the comment about EV’s being “shoved down peoples’ throats” however. That perception is not being created by Tesla; it is being created by government with all of this mandating and forbidding.



People are buying Teslas because they want them and they are a superior product in most ways. The transition to electric vehicles is happening because the value of an EV incentivizes their purchase. I believe this transition would continue without the heavy hand of the government pushing people. That approach generates resentment and resistance, and will, I believe, end up slowing the transition to electrification.



People did not transition from horses to cars because the government forced them to. The advantages of the car were obvious, and became more so as the cars improved. If the government people had any confidence in the technology of EVs, they would not feel the need to shove people into electric cars against their will. All of this banning of ICE vehicles is only creating angry resistance which makes a lot of people not WANT to even look at an electric car.



Tesla’s approach: create a superior product and let it sell itself, is clearly working. If the government idiots would only let this transition happen because people want to change, it will go much more smoothly.

Good points and I agree.

To be clear, I was commenting on his illusion of a "gas and oil hating government," which is patently absurd. My focus on the bit about it being shoved down people's throats was secondary at best.

Only people who do consider the data about other disruptive transitions from history can grasp just how quickly this can unfold.

One of the things I decided not to include while making that reply was Elon's sentiments about government subsidies being, "we don't need them to succeed." The truth of this sentiment speaks volumes about why the transition is inevitable.

You see, I wanted to keep my reply from getting too lengthy. :rolleyes: ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: totoro722 and MC3OZ
Weekend OT: Tesla Plaid Performance self advertisement

I've been watching Tesla Plaid Channel for sometime now. Andrew has been racing for years and lately he's had Plaid(s). He stated that he's done over 1K race runs and the maintenance he's done - wiper change.

The takeout: His Plaid has destroyed almost everything on the drag strip. There have been some lost races with some heavily modded 'cars'
 
That pic has been discussed a bunch in here... while both are real pics they are used by some to greatly overestimate how quickly cars replaced horses OTHER than in parades in NYC.

Even in NYC horses remained in fairly common use for over 20 years after that second picture (still numbering in the tens of thousands)... and in much of the country remained in common use until roughly the mid-late 1940s with the huge post-war manufacturing boom and economic expansion.

Likewise EVs will likely be the majority of new vehicles sold by the end of this decade, but they won't be the majority of vehicles on the road for at least another decade beyond that, and won't be "almost all" vehicles for another decade past THAT (even Elon has cited that as the rough timeline for fleet replacement)....putting us around 2050....putting us at roughly 30-40 years for the transition (depending if you want to start with the Leaf/roadster/model S as your start...or the EV1) which is...not much different from the horse one really time-wise.
I may be beating a dead horse if this has been discussed a bunch, but I disagree that the horse - to - car transition analogy is a good fit with respect to timing. Anyone can feed their horse, but the value of maintaining ICE after half the cars on the road are BEV falls much more quickly than horses, since they require an infrastructure that will be too expensive to maintain (gas, oil, repairs, etc.).
 
I agree that this post about the advantages of Tesla is excellently thought out and written. I believe it is a mistake to dismiss the comment about EV’s being “shoved down peoples’ throats” however. That perception is not being created by Tesla; it is being created by government with all of this mandating and forbidding.

Assuming for a moment that anyone is still selling ICE vehicles in 2035, anyone who really genuinely wants an ICE vehicle at that time can buy one in 2034.9 and just hang onto it for 5+ years and still have an excellent exhaust spewing vehicle until 2040.

Most of the handful of people who are really up in arms about these mandates will be dead by 2040, but assuming they aren't, there are certain to be some states which never stop selling ICE vehicles. People will have the option to buy from one of those states.

Personally, I think this should be handled a lot different. Vehicle makers and oil companies should be paying to offset the external costs they push onto society. Once people have to pay for the true cost of that 8MPG gas hog they insist is the most effective way they can live their lives, they will change their story. I'm sure they'd whine about that as well though.

The bans on ICE are entirely pointless. They are simply a way of communicating to the automakers an intention. If there weren't enough EVs produced to meet societies needs, the laws would be adjusted.
 
Last edited:
I may be beating a dead horse if this has been discussed a bunch, but I disagree that the horse - to - car transition analogy is a good fit with respect to timing. Anyone can feed their horse, but the value of maintaining ICE after half the cars on the road are BEV falls much more quickly than horses, since they require an infrastructure that will be too expensive to maintain (gas, oil, repairs, etc.).


Keep in mind, "half the cars sold" is a long way from "half the cars on the road"

Half the cars sold being EVs will be a done deal by end of decade (if not sooner).

Half on the road is still >15 years away still by simply running the math of annual sales of all vehicles (and the % that are EVs between now and 100% EVs) vs size of the worldwide fleet of them... (and THAT assumes other car companies start legitimately scaling EV production sometime soon- though it's pretty clear by now some chinese makers will be happy to pick up whatever market legacy refuses to)

And even when you get to half on the road, that still leaves roughly one billion ICE vehicles in need of those things you list- plenty of motivation for them to continue to be available, and locally too...after all, EVs still need wipers, washer fluid, wax and polish, and a number of other auto parts common to both types so stores like autozone aren't going entirely away for a LONG time (if ever)-- though you'll probably just have 1 or 2 in a town instead of having multiples of 4 different brands of em like today.
 
I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day:

1683330373465.png

 
Imo It seems like FSD is severely underestimated by the market right now. From the latest reviews and tweets it seems that 11.3.x was massive improvement and it sounds like 11.4.x also will be a massive improvement to the point that many people are reporting majority zero intervention drives and not only in California. Mainly it proves the point that Tesla has a method of improving the system rapidly that is not hitting any walls yet. So 11.5 etc will likely keep bringing improvements to the point that it's getting hard to laugh at FSD anymore and the talk will quickly go from "Robotaxi will never work" to "Robotaxi easy to do, competition is coming to eat Tesla's lunch" lol.

Tesla has said that they intend to 10x their NN compute in 2023 and another 10x in 2024 And it's not like they were starting from a small capacity, they had one of the largest Nvidia clusters in the world in 2022. In 2024 they will have a the equivalent of 100 of them. How can this be ignored by the market?

It sounds like Europe might get FSD around Q1 2024 and they taking steps at expanding it to China. And Europe will not start from US2021 FSD, no it will pretty much be as good as US 2024 FSD after a few months. Even though they don't drive with FSD in Europe, you can bet they are running it in shadow mode collecting would been failures. The first quarter it's enable in Europe will be a rather large pure profit post as decent percent of their European fleet will enable it at once.

Still market seems to give FSD a value of ~0. Imo there are different scenarios with different estimated likelihoods and values. Some of the higher value ones such as robotaxi we can disagree on, but just the expensive addon "autopilot on city streets" is starting to look very likely and should be plenty valuable in itself. Let's say this can add another 5% margins(15k option, 15% take rate, 50k ASP ->~5% margins), imo that's pretty huge. 30% take rate and it's 10% margins. If not $15k then monthly and monthly is even higher margins but requires Wall Street to think so it will take longer to show in the valuation but the value is still there. This seems like a decent floor for the value of FSD, not to mention insurance gains etc. Robotaxi may or may not be far away, but even ignoring robotaxi FSD should be included in the calculation.

Then there is the question of the value of Dojo as a Service. If Dojo is indeed 6x cheaper than A100, Tesla can charge 50% of the price of A100 and still have 50%+ margins. And the market for this is clearly very large. Twitter and X.ai seems pretty locked in to be customers and Tesla can divert some of their nVidia expenses to Dojo expenses which in the end is the same as being a customer. And the market is starved for compute right now, like Elon said startups have to buy the chips from back alley dealers. Dojo as a service is not completely unlike AWS that's carrying Amazon right now and not completely unlike nVidia which has a higher value that Tesla. And AI seems to take over more and more so clearly this market is not negligible as Wall Street seems to think.
 
How does this even track?

GM hasn’t even sold through their first run of EHummers and they are already doing another top end cash grab.

EDIT: Thinking on it answer is simple. GM has run out of pre-orders or will by next year even at their current pace of production.

 
Last edited: