Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[cliff harris]

All posts about how Birdseye, ultrasonic, etc. are unecessary....they are all just sadly an effort at justifying Tesla's inadequacy. If people are such awesome drivers so as not to need the extras, we'll no one makes you use them. Having additional aides to help all drivers, regardless of skills, makes for the safest cars. Many other car brands have created valuable features to help in this area. Don't justify Tesla's substandard bells-and-whistles because it demonstrates your subjectivity.

Yup well said. Also its just an incredible own-goal by Tesla in terms of branding. Regardless of how I personally feel as a customer, I despair at Tesla handing such an obvious gift to competitors. My neighbour recently bought an MG EV costing about half what my model Y cost. He cares not a bit about 0-60 times, or playing games and streaming netflix in his car. His *cheap* EV has a rain sensor, parking sensors and a birds eye view.

I'd love Tesla to spend less time bragging about nurburing lap-times and more time implementing the basic functionality that people expect to work. Anybody trying to use Tesla Vision to park in a tight space will tell you that its embarrasingly bad.
Tesla have to sell cars to the average Joe now, not just to people who take a lambo to the track.

 

[JayNT]

Yup well said. Also its just an incredible own-goal by Tesla in terms of branding. Regardless of how I personally feel as a customer, I despair at Tesla handing such an obvious gift to competitors. My neighbour recently bought an MG EV costing about half what my model Y cost. He cares not a bit about 0-60 times, or playing games and streaming netflix in his car. His *cheap* EV has a rain sensor, parking sensors and a birds eye view.

I'd love Tesla to spend less time bragging about nurburing lap-times and more time implementing the basic functionality that people expect to work. Anybody trying to use Tesla Vision to park in a tight space will tell you that its embarrasingly bad.
Tesla have to sell cars to the average Joe now, not just to people who take a lambo to the track.

It's just a guess on my part but I don't think that the person responsible for "bragging" about Nurburgring lap-times has any connection to implementing the basic functionality of any system in the car.

 

[Ipcress]

What you really are saying is that driving is too difficult a task for many people and they shouldn’t actually have a driver’s license. Agreed!

I think he's really saying is that when prospective buyers of a Tesla who have gotten used to having such valueble features as 360 degree view, L&R-rear side cross-traffic warnings when backing up, etc., test drive a Tesla and find them missing, they will give it a pass and keep looking for another EV that does have them.

I don't use autopilot much, but if I did and experienced the kind of phantom braking I've been reading about, I'd be extremely upset, and in touch with NITSA about it. FSD is just too expensive and half-baked for me to even want to experiment with it. The previous posters have pointed out that Tesla is now selling to everyone, not just people with a forgiving, early-adopter viewpoint.

 

[JRP3]

What you really are saying is that driving is too difficult a task for many people and they shouldn’t actually have a driver’s license. Agreed!

Expecting features to function properly doesn't mean someone can't drive. Just because you'll excuse any flaw doesn't mean the general public will do the same.

 

[Knightshade]

It's just a guess on my part but I don't think that the person responsible for "bragging" about Nurburgring lap-times has any connection to implementing the basic functionality of any system in the car.

I suspect the people who thought of (or at least approved) removing the sensors ARE the same folks bragging about the lap times though.

I agree this is an own-goal thing--- and one Tesla already went through, more than once, and should have known better.

When they removed rain sensors- which have worked flawlessly for many many years in not just other brands, but Teslas as well, WITHOUT having validated at-least-as-good software to replace them, that was a mistake. Initially there was just 0 auto functionality at all- then it was complete garbage when they finally rolled SW out. Only now, years later, is the software for that feature ok... and JUST ok, still not as good, as we've seen from many recent posts, as the original physical sensor was.

Rather than learn from this and put off any further removing of HW until they knew the SW was good, they removed radar... making even basic AP less functional (lower top speed, longer minimum follow distance)... and now, once again, years later, it's still not back to parity with the original HW-based solution just like the wipers aren't.

Then rather than learn from EITHER of those and put off any further removing of HW until they knew the SW was good, they removed the ultrasonics.... which entirely removed many of the features of EAP/FSD from newer cars for a while (no autopark, no summon, no enhanced summon)-- and now a few months shy of a year later, software has brought back some of this, but it's demonstrably worse than the HW based solution-- and given the existing cameras have known blind spots the USS covered, that's also not going to get back to parity.


The best part is no part when the lack of the part does not make the car worse


The fact YOU (generic you) doesn't care about losing all these things lower-end cars did fine with HW doesn't change the fact many prospective buyers WILL care... and we're no longer in the days of 6 month waiting lists for deliveries- scaling to even 2 million cars a year requires at least SOME consideration of what the "normal" buyer wants and expects.... and certainly scaling to -20- million requires a lot of consideration of that.

 

[jerry33]

I think he's really saying is that when prospective buyers of a Tesla who have gotten used to having such valueble features as 360 degree view, L&R-rear side cross-traffic warnings when backing up, etc., test drive a Tesla and find them missing, they will give it a pass and keep looking for another EV that does have them.

I don't use autopilot much, but if I did and experienced the kind of phantom braking I've been reading about, I'd be extremely upset, and in touch with NITSA about it. FSD is just too expensive and half-baked for me to even want to experiment with it. The previous posters have pointed out that Tesla is now selling to everyone, not just people with a forgiving, early-adopter viewpoint.

FWIW I’ve had FSD since early 2020 and have had only one bad instance and that waa early on. Now I’m not saying there hasn’t been some slight hesitations but nothing that would cause cars behind me to have an issue. The last couple of releases have improved FSD enough that I will use it on surface streets (~60%}. I’m two releases behind (.2 current is .4). Although not perfect, for me it’s usable with monitoring.

 

[unk45]

I live in a city, drive a fair bit and find the backup camera and auto-tilting mirrors fantastic for parking. I think some people probably need to take some more driving lessons, where you're taught (in the UK at least) to park by reversing where possible. Of course it would be nice to have proper parking assistance and I don't agree with the removal of ultrasonics, but people shouldn't rely on them as much as they seem to.

True, although the large camera views that display precise camera view of parking spaces and confine—area maneuvering are very useful to simplify close areas. One of the few areas in which my Volvo is superior to my Tesla. Of course that Volvo operates in very, very confined areas of dense pre-automotive narrow brick streets. The Tesla operates on streets and parking that are designed for Ford F150-sized vehicles driven by people who seem never to have passed ‘proper’ driving examination, not important anyway because they’re on mobile phones while shaving ir doing their hair.
The foregoing is very slightly /s

 

[scaesare]

Yeah, my ‘59 Rambler Classic had vacuum wipers. Don’t hit the gas too hard or the wipers stopped dead. Fun times.

(Weekend + Monday market closure off-topic...)

Interesting, my buddy's 61 Volvo 122S had vacuum wipers and they'd speed up as you applied throttle, as you typically generate greater vacuum as engine RPM increases...

When idling at a stop light it would do a S L O W wipe about once every 8-10 seconds lol....

It also had sweet 6V headlights.. about as bright as typical "running lights"

 

[phantasms]

Happy Father’s Day to all who celebrate!!!

 

[Skryll]

[...]

When they removed rain sensors- which have worked flawlessly for many many years in not just other brands, but Teslas as well, WITHOUT having validated at-least-as-good software to replace them, that was a mistake.

Unless that was necessary to be able to deliver the amount of vehicles they have. Was the part a bottleneck to mass production ?

 

[navguy12]

What wave?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670246778577223681

Has anyone counted them (yet)?

Asking for a friend.

 

[cliff harris]

There is no evidence for the USS removal being related to mass production. Show me the stories of other manufacturers reducing production and blaming a lack of USS. There are none.
This was an arrogant move by people who live and work in California or Texas, on US roads, who have no idea what European raods and weather are like, and it absoluitely, definitely made the product much, much worse.
I have a 2022 model Y with FSD purchased. It cannot even autopark, 8 months after purchase. My 2015 model S could. How is this 4D chess by elon? The product is getting worse.

 

[Krugerrand]

Yup well said. Also its just an incredible own-goal by Tesla in terms of branding. Regardless of how I personally feel as a customer, I despair at Tesla handing such an obvious gift to competitors. My neighbour recently bought an MG EV costing about half what my model Y cost. He cares not a bit about 0-60 times, or playing games and streaming netflix in his car. His *cheap* EV has a rain sensor, parking sensors and a birds eye view.

I'd love Tesla to spend less time bragging about nurburing lap-times and more time implementing the basic functionality that people expect to work. Anybody trying to use Tesla Vision to park in a tight space will tell you that its embarrasingly bad.
Tesla have to sell cars to the average Joe now, not just to people who take a lambo to the track.

Tesla IS selling cars to the average Joe and has been for a while now. I am a nobody average Joe and my Tesla is over 5 years old. That Tesla was only the second brand new vehicle I and my spouse had bought in over three decades of driving - the first was co-signed by my father.

You have a short memory, but I don’t. I remember many people here complaining that Tesla vehicles weren’t able to track like other brands. I remember that was a big deal for people (and media) and the reason they’d not buy a Tesla.

My wish is for people to stop complaining about everything. If you don’t like something about any product then don’t buy it, don’t use it, sell it, get a different product. Vote with your money not your mouth.

I understand not everyone wants the same things in a vehicle. If auto wipers working in a particular way is high on your criteria list then go buy that vehicle. And if that criteria also happens to occur in another EV, less expensive or otherwise than a Tesla, then go buy it. Because I also remember many people saying Tesla can’t do it all themselves, so hurray you can get those perfect performing auto wipers in another EV - that’s a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[KMCC]

I think he's really saying is that when prospective buyers of a Tesla who have gotten used to having such valueble features as 360 degree view, L&R-rear side cross-traffic warnings when backing up, etc., test drive a Tesla and find them missing, they will give it a pass and keep looking for another EV that does have them.

I don't use autopilot much, but if I did and experienced the kind of phantom braking I've been reading about, I'd be extremely upset, and in touch with NITSA about it. FSD is just too expensive and half-baked for me to even want to experiment with it. The previous posters have pointed out that Tesla is now selling to everyone, not just people with a forgiving, early-adopter viewpoint.

I have two Tesla's one I have had for 5 years I have had phantom breaking two times, total.

Part of this problem could be that people love to complain but don't say anything when they're happy....

I am happy with my teslas

 

[unk45]

Several people have commented on Tesla features that are disabled/made poorer, during a rush to increasing manufacturing simplicity, cost reduction and functioning of FSD. At least a couple have suggested that as Tesla is approaching 2,000,000 cars sold annually the time has passed for substandard function, in any respect.

I agree with these views. I also think Tesla is obsessed with cost reduction so regularly eliminates parts that work well prior to having a replacement non-part that functions as well or better than the replaced part.
Mostly I am pleased that Tesla pushes boundaries over and over, eventually with great success.

Without repeating any of the prior arguments I suggest that Tesla now would be well-served to defer replacing classic functions such as bird's eye view, ultrasonic-aided vehicle placement and direct rain-sensing wipers and a few others. These, in aggregate might cost US$200 per vehicle, not trivial BUT, they could and would eliminate purchase objections while simplifying human operator life.

In the "we're close to FSD perfection" litany, human drivers are being largely ignored. That is a mistake, not least because at best true FSD will not yield Robo-Taxi for some years. The Robo-Taxi advocates simply have no idea how to solve the innumerable local problems that require knowledge that is not conventional.
Think of the thousands of places that have one street address serving dozens of commercial and residential locations. (I just counted the buildings that hare common address in a Medical Campus near me. Eighteen buildings with 14,000 employees, all with one address. Very hard for a human to navigate without stopping and asking a human. FSD?) Then think of summoning a Robo-Taxi, when even local taxi/Uber drivers are lost. The famously knowledgeable London taxi drivers can be stumped. (I once lived in a mews house, a former stable, that no London Taxi driver knew, so I just ave a nearby address.) What will Robo-Taxi do?

It seems to me that the quest for Robo-Taxi is eliminating human-desirable function long before any function Robo-Tax could arrive. Bad idea! Further, even when Rob-Taxi does arrive will it eradicate human drivers? The answer is obviously no!

As a deeply committed HODL and multiple Tesla buyer plus regular renter I hope there is a way for us to effect policy change. There seems little way to effect change with consumer contact for most of us.

Are there those among us who know ways to influence Tesla to stay relevant to old-fashioned car drivers, the human beings?

 

[Krugerrand]

I think he's really saying is that when prospective buyers of a Tesla who have gotten used to having such valueble features as 360 degree view, L&R-rear side cross-traffic warnings when backing up, etc., test drive a Tesla and find them missing, they will give it a pass and keep looking for another EV that does have them.

I don't use autopilot much, but if I did and experienced the kind of phantom braking I've been reading about, I'd be extremely upset, and in touch with NITSA about it. FSD is just too expensive and half-baked for me to even want to experiment with it. The previous posters have pointed out that Tesla is now selling to everyone, not just people with a forgiving, early-adopter viewpoint.

Tesla has been selling to everyone for several years now. We’re way past early adopter stage. I’ve been hearing for years how if Tesla doesn’t fix this or that, that the average person won’t buy a Tesla. It wasn’t true then, it isn’t true now.

SOME people won’t buy a Tesla because it doesn’t have this feature or that feature. It’s not a big deal. They’ll buy something else with perfectly working auto park and then turn around and complain it can’t supercharge like a Tesla. That’s what people do.

 

[Unpilot]

Happy Father’s Day to all who celebrate!!!

View attachment 948160

Someone actually bought that shirt??

 

[Krugerrand]

Expecting features to function properly doesn't mean someone can't drive. Just because you'll excuse any flaw doesn't mean the general public will do the same.

I’m not excusing anything. I’m simply not complaining about it. Either accept that’s where things are now or move on and buy something else. Acceptance is not excusing. I accept that my wipers may not come on when I want or expect them to or may come on when I don’t want or expect them to. I then choose to either put them on auto or manual.

If a person can’t park without hitting something, they should park in an empty lot or turn in their license. Parking without hitting the curb or other vehicles IS a basic requirement of driving. I accept that my Tesla isn’t as good at parking as I am.

 

[AudubonB]

Someone actually bought that shirt??

Your tone makes me think you’re looking at the situation incorrectly.

Those who care the most about this planet also wish for gasoline forever. That is, the way - the only way- to make that happens is to save, not consume, it.

 

[AudubonB]

I hold not tens of millions, not hundreds of millions, but billions of dollars of TSLA. I sit on the board of Tesla Inc.
It is my responsibility to ensure my company makes THE safest, most compelling automobile the world ever has or will see.

To attain that goal, my view is that the company ought take, rather than dismiss, the good features also present in other makers’ products. That the company ought - as @unk45 has cogently written - consider replacing the Old with the New after and only after the latter has rigorously been demonstrated always to be superior.


And THAT is how I view my position with Tesla and TSLA. It is thus not solely because of my years as a portfolio manager entrusted to manage thousands of others peoples’ savings, but because now, in my so-called retirement, I do exactly the same but for only a very select number of family and friends. For me, there is no difference in those two charges.

Subsequent to my prior post, another has posted “FWIW…I never have experienced phantom braking…”. The ”IW” in that FWIW is exactly zero. It has happened to others. It never should occur. “My wipers work fine”. Again, worthless, or possibly less than zero, as along with tires and brakes, a well-functioning set of wipers is axiomatically fundamental to a safe automobile.

”You don’t like that a Tesla hasn’t such-and-such a feature? Fine: then buy another car.” I do not wish to read one more such line in a thread devoted to investments in TSLA. Not Ever Again. Zero exception.