Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[-=buzz=-]

Relevant bit for folks who were unsure what happens if you take the credit then later realize you didn't qualify for some/all of it:

Section 30D(g)(10) provides that in the case of any taxpayer who has made a
vehicle transfer election with respect to a new clean vehicle and received a payment
from an eligible entity, if the section 30D credit would otherwise (but for section 30D(g))
not be allowable to such taxpayer pursuant to the application of the modified AGI
limitations in section 30D(f)(10), the income tax imposed on such taxpayer under
chapter 1 for the taxable year in which such vehicle was placed in service must be
increased by the amount of the payment received by such taxpayer.



So as suggested previously- IRS will reconcile with you when you file taxes and you'll owe the $ back at that time.... this might also hit you with underpayment penalties depending on the amounts involved and other circumstances- so you'll want to insure you understand the credit qualifications before taking it as POS.

But isn't this an interest free credit?
If you get a car at the beginning of Q1 you can pay back the 7500$ at the end of Q4?

 

[Usain]

But isn't this an interest free credit?
If you get a car at the beginning of Q1 you can pay back the 7500$ at the end of Q4?

Yes. It's an interest-free loan from Uncle Sam.

Sometimes he's the nice uncle. Sometimes he's wicked Uncle Ernie.

 

[Mardak]

makes this a refundable credit for those with LOWER income, IS surprising and a pretty huge bit of news

The federal government has been trying to make the EV credit more accessible for over a decade. CBO estimated only 20% of potential tax filers would have over $7,500 tax liability back in 2011. If that's still anywhere accurate, this means ~80% of people in the US are newly eligible to get the full $7,500 off a Tesla with the transfer of credit starting 2024.

Q4: What if a buyer has insufficient tax liability to fully use a transferred credit? (added October 6, 2023)​

A4. The amount of the credit that the electing taxpayer elects to transfer to the eligible entity may exceed the electing taxpayer's regular tax liability for the taxable year in which the sale occurs, and the excess, if any, is not subject to recapture from the dealer or the buyer.​

 

[ggr]

Mod: Cool the discussion. You know who you are. --ggr

 

[mongo]

I think it'd be tough to afford 4 new EVs in a year and ALSO come in under the income cap, but YMMV.

But if you consider the income limit is the lower of the most recent two years...

Yeah you could do normal ones like you do this year- but AFAIK those would remain non-refundable unlike the transfer election ones- and going to 5 or more in a year seems even less likely to be able to come in under the income limits outside of some really odd situations.

And you cancel your tax liability with non-point of sale credits...

Then you could end up with no taxes and more cars than you know what to do with...

 

[Skryll]

There can be hundreds of reasons for this, all out of Tesla’s control. There is A LOT of pieces that need to come together to launch a refreshed vehicle. [...]

Also, risk mitigation. We know aggressive innovation and willingness to be wrong and correct later are part of Teslas agile dna. Probably smarter to do a rolling rollout now that we have multiple GF making (almost) the same product

 

[2daMoon]

With Buc-ee's charging time doesn’t matter. If you get in and out of those behemoths in less than a half hour, you’re not doing it right

This reminded me of childhood family trips where Stuckeys had those ginormous interstate gas/food/trinkets stops in the middle of nowhere. With signs alerting you after coming within fifty miles or so. (which Buc-ee's does as well)

When relating the trips to friends, my dad had a mantra, "Don't get stuck at Stuckeys" as he jokingly voiced fears of all the junk we'd pick up there.
I guess if he were around today the warning would ring as true after a simple matter of replacing Stuckeys with Buc-ee's.

Still, I think he'd get a charge out of stopping there.

Yeah, I know there's a pun in there

 

[wipster]

Government is purposely making it easy on the taxpayer and seller.
If last year's income and the vehicle meet the criteria, you (and the dealer) are guaranteed the full (vehicle specific) credit.
If you are planning to qualify based on the current year's income, you may be subject to recapture at tax time, but the dealer is not impacted.

So if I'm reading you right, if I purchase an EV that is eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit in 2024, I would still be able to have the full amount even if I didn't owe any federal tax in 2023, as long as I met income requirements?

 

[KBF]

I thought this chart might be of interest showing Tesla's UK market share:
View attachment 980080

Source: UK EV Share At 23.4% — Tesla Leads - CleanTechnica

I think its interesting for the many US posters here, as I know that the share of BEVs in the US that Tesla has is MUCH bigger. This can blind investors to the situation in other markets where there actually is some real competition. I especially think the MG4 is a very cost-conscious competitor to the model 3 here.

Especially relevant today when discussing further 3/Y price cuts. Maybe not in the US, but here in the UK I can see Tesla being concerned about lower price rivals. The MG4 is also small, and more suited to UK roads. Still, the guy who I know who bought an MG4 would have definitely got model 3 if it was price-comparative!

Interesting that the data excludes custom license plates... I don't know how much that would skew the data. I don't recall seeing that disclaimer in any stat before.

 

[mongo]

So if I'm reading you right, if I purchase an EV that is eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit in 2024, I would still be able to have the full amount even if I didn't owe any federal tax in 2023, as long as I met income requirements?

That is the system as I understand it.

 

[wipster]

That is the system as I understand it.

Cool. May have just sold some new Tesla's next year!

 

[Krugerrand]

Oops. Green. ‍

 

[wipster]

If you do that, you will often owe an interest penalty on top of your taxes. But the $7500 at point of sale is a true interest-free loan.

You mean just like what the IRS gets from people who really like getting big refunds? For the last 10 years I was working I always set my deductions so I would get as close to $0 refund every year and then stuck what was recommended into stocks or savings, always came out far ahead.

 

[Max Plaid]

not sure if posted already, but another hit piece from Faiz &Co at WaPo:

https://wapo.st/45i7naQ

In theory, this link gifts it to you.
But in case that doesn’t work or you don’t want to patronize the publisher, TL;DR - he’s regurgitating the 2019 fatality (doesn’t mention the date until the third paragraph. Fancy recreation of the crash using exclusive video from a farm’s surveillance camera. 2/3 of the article is a rehash.
‘A Washington Post analysis of federal data found that vehicles guided by Autopilot have been involved in more than 700 crashes, at least 19 of them fatal, since its introduction in 2014, including the Banner crash’

No mention of how many accidents avoided.

Any mention of the fact that the driver is 100% responsible for the behaviour of the vehicle at all times and must stay alert, attentive, watch the road, keep their hands on the wheel, feet at the pedals and be ready to take control at any given moment?

No, need to answer that... Autopilot has caused exactly zero accidents, in every case the driver was at fault and this will remain the case until Level 5 is achieved

It's very simple, I don't get why the authorities don't understand this

 

[bkp_duke]

UAW says GM will place all EV battery plants under union agreement

Battery plants have been in focus during the strike, with UAW contending that EV pay needs to be higher to ensure a "just transition" to EVs.

electrek.co

This is really going to hurt GM (and probably Ford and Stelantis - assuming they sign something like that).


Wonder if it's better for GM to just buy fully assembled packs from LG or someone, and not bother with battery manufacturing.

 

[bkp_duke]

Any mention of the fact that the driver is 100% responsible for the behaviour of the vehicle at all times and must stay alert, attentive, watch the road, keep their hands on the wheel, feel at the pedals and be ready to take control at any give moment?

No, need to answer that... Autopilot has caused exactly zero accidents, in every case the driver was at fault and this will remain the case until Level 5 is achieved

It's very simple, I don't understand why the authorities don't understand this

I just don't get these lawsuits. To us AP/FSD you basically have to sign to accept any and all responsibility and not hold Tesla liable. Did contract law all of a sudden not start to be . . . law?

 

[Max Plaid]

View attachment 980138

I did my part today. How about you?

MS Plaid Ultra Red, Enhanced AP, 19", Yoke (YES!), Winter tire package, black interior. My 9 year old P85 will go to a friend.

Lets go!

You're going to love the Plaid, but you'll miss your P85 too, that was the most fin car I've ever owned, all that power on RWD was a constant giggle-fest, loved it, and the pano roof...

 

[Artful Dodger]

More price cuts. Tomorrow, I anticipate TSLA will close wherever the options market dictates.

Monday, the stock price will drop and the excuse will be the price cuts.

Haha, we'll see! (FOMO abides, dude)

Unless there is some other catalyst over the weekend. Maybe some communication, some detail...anything... regarding a product that was going to have first deliveries in Q3.

Also, there's the runup into Earnings to consider.

Cheers to the Faithfu1s

 

[Speedr117]

You're going to love the Plaid, but you'll miss your P85 too, that was the most fin car I've ever owned, all that power on RWD was a constant giggle-fest, loved it, and the pano roof...

Track mode and set all power to the rear wheels only. Also, LOVE the max regen in track mode. Sad there's no way to have that all the time...

 

[jerry33]

UAW says GM will place all EV battery plants under union agreement

Battery plants have been in focus during the strike, with UAW contending that EV pay needs to be higher to ensure a "just transition" to EVs.

electrek.co

This is really going to hurt GM (and probably Ford and Stelantis - assuming they sign something like that).


Wonder if it's better for GM to just buy fully assembled packs from LG or someone, and not bother with battery manufacturing.

The sooner GM goes bankrupt, the sooner Mary gets her golden parachute. Smart move on Mary's part.