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That's very interesting, I've honestly never considered the possibility that humanoid robots could work FASTER than humans. More hours per day for certain, but faster?

And truly right now I'm wondering why I never considered that before, seems reasonable upon contemplation...🤔
When we consider many of the Tesla manufacturing innovations, one feature common to many is:
Reduced downtime, e.g.:
-Berlin paintshop that allowed ad hoc color changes, eliminated most primers, with water reduction, manual work reduction. That all added to faster, thus cheaper.
-the factory OS stages options through integrated software, the only 'common' feature being applying the vin as master control. Nothing manual, all automated. Faster, fewer errors, more precise thus cheaper.
- following that logic consider Optimus. By increased task precision, near-total absence of fatigue ('near' because there will be charging and maintenance) even with no increase in hours Optimus ends out being faster. Error-free virtually always is faster than error correction, plus cheaper because fewer inspections are required precisely because of the error-free process.

Reduced parts count coupled with reduced process steps, e.g
-GigaPress- by eliminating hundreds of parts, the manual processes are mostly eliminated,
process control becomes central to success and indispensable to cost reduction,
legions of Kukai work relentlessly doing precision repetition and handling cumbersome and/or heavy
processes that humans could not do.

So really, of what use is a humanoid robot when other fully automated solutions are producing such stellar results? The common thesis is that they will do dangerous or repetitive tasks that humans now do and conventional robotics cannot do, at least not economically.

I'll suggest that their primary role will be to do fairy simple tasks and/or dangerous ones that humans do because conventional robotics can't complete and entire task, that including some categories of parts loading in assembly lines, doing irregularly scheduled control functions and the conventional assembly line actions that, in older factories have not yet been automated. They even could preform a wide variety of precise production quality checking that humans do today.

My thesis is, basically, that Optimus likely requires less training than do humans to replicate many tasks. Specifically if the task involves measurements or checking for non-compliant elements, Optimus could do such ad hoc tasks far faster and more precisely than could any human.

Most Optimus task discussions and even demonstrations should it doing routine and simple tasks not really demanding any significant level of skill, just some manual training. What if all that is a red herring, that the primary industrial mission is to help improve quality control, among other things.

That does not in any way detract from the attractiveness of 'Robbie". I'd pay well to replace my household staff with Optimus. Optimus, at least, can follow instructions. The human equivalents often do not have enough education to do that, even when they want too. As for faster...with boring and repetitive things humans are really slow and error-prone. The quality of those jobs really goes up with a humanoid robot, not least because they will not do something they are not instructed to do. That alone makes them far faster than humans.

The analogy with Apple VisionPlus might be apt. Presumed to be for entertainment one solution mentioned by Tim Cook was an innovative solution by SAP. Those who know SAP know how boring and fear-inducing those interminable SAP training sessions can be. Turn much of those into immersive video! Just search for SAP Certification training and it becomes instantly evident that video games may not be the actual lucrative market for some time to come. In that respect it might be analogous to iPad, the value of which is enormous in Airline Pilot flight bags, manus and wine lists, sales and order processing etc.

With Optimus nearly everyone thinks about how it has been publicly positioned rather than what those skills and abilities might be to extract maximum value. Optimus is a long way from delivering on all that promise, but...how efficient has training become?

With no special facts, with only logic regarding analogous situations, I think we may have been too linear in our thinking.

Just think of Gigapress, >100 sold but after Tesla nearly all of Chinese Tier One, if the rumors are correct.

The huge problem is thinking about the 'installed base' assuming nothing will change.
 
LOL - Font size.
The move comes on the same day Tesla said it was recalling 2.2 million electric vehicles - nearly all its US units - due to incorrect font sizes on warning lights that increase the risk of a crash. No crashes or injuries have been reported.
Tesla began releasing an over-the-air software update on Jan. 23, free of charge, to fix the issue, the regulator said
Font size , massive .
free of charge, however, changing font size is expensive
 
The idea of Tesla doing geofenced robotaxis might not be that familiar here. Allow me to explain my reasoning.

We have already seen that FSD works best in California because that's where its training has been "over-sampled". So if your goal is to start a robotaxi business, the fastest way to get there is train V12 intensively on a small area. This seems the most logical way to get started and it could happen very soon at a very low cost.

They might even start in Arizona to show how quickly they can crush Waymo.
 
Well, the forum says it means disagree:

View attachment 1014648

I think there's some value in knowing if opinions are widely held and/or conclusions agreed with. I've certainly stopped to think twice about some things based on whom may disagree with a statement.

I don't think it should be used simply because you don't care for a poster, however...

This button's use is often ambiguous.

I'd rather someone post up a few words about what they disagree with than simply hit the button. That could add to the conversation and might offer an unconsidered perspective. Doing so may also show how the disagree was emotional rather than from a perspective of reason and logic, which could be informative as well.
 
I'll suggest that their primary role will be to do fairy simple tasks and/or dangerous ones that humans do because conventional robotics can't complete and entire task, that including some categories of parts loading in assembly lines, doing irregularly scheduled control functions and the conventional assembly line actions that, in older factories have not yet been automated. They even could preform a wide variety of precise production quality checking that humans do today.
I'm doubling down that there won't be many Kuka's going forwards.:

Check out this old Berlin fly through video:
  1. Stamping
    1. Single Kuka required per stamping - no change
    2. Optimus to provide logistics instead of humans
  2. Gigacastings
    1. Single Kuka required per casting - no change
    2. No change to logistics
  3. Welding
    1. Massive reduction (maybe 90% less to increased size of gigacastings and reduced stampings
  4. Painting
    1. No change
  5. Assembly
    1. Humans replaced by Optimus
I think each line could go from ~100 Kuka/FANUC style robots per line to ~10.
 
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This button's use is often ambiguous.

I'd rather someone post up a few words about what they disagree with than simply hit the button. That could add to the conversation and might offer an unconsidered perspective. Doing so may also show how the disagree was emotional rather than from a perspective of reason and logic, which could be informative as well.

Yeah, I feel like a disagree typically requires some context... whereas an "agree" often does not.

(that having been said... last from me on this now that trading is in swing..)
 
That's very interesting, I've honestly never considered the possibility that humanoid robots could work FASTER than humans. More hours per day for certain, but faster?

And truly right now I'm wondering why I never considered that before, seems reasonable upon contemplation...🤔
I can envision an Optimus swinging its torso around from side to side so fast as it works on its tasks ... that it uses so much energy stopping its own momentum... that Tesla decides to add regenerative rotational braking to recover most of that energy. Too out there, or right on target?
 
I’m specifically talking about 2024 which you yourself and Tesla have said will be a slow growth period. And comparing that to the “mature company” which has no problems growing 20%.

Look like I said it’s not going to be a popular opinion. Everyone’s going to hang on things like cyber truck or energy but these things are not going to move the needle. That’s why Tesla admits they are in between growth cycles because they need the cheaper car.
You are comparing a media company to an engineering/manufacturing company.
That's like comparing a hamburger to a boot.
 
Their joining after the forming of the U.S. does not change the relationship between any individual state and the union created to serve them. U.S. law is inferior to state law in regard to qualification of candidates for state offices.

Correct, there is no prohibition under the California or Texas constitutions requiring candidates for governor to have been born in either the state itself, nor the United States. Only the U.S. Constitution has such a birth requirement for specific candidates.

Still, I think that Elon involving himself in such muck would be lowering his aim compared to what he is attempting to achieve to help all of humanity now.
The US requirement does not require that someone be born IN the United States but does require to have been born a citizen. This then allowed both Ted Cruz and John McCain, born elsewhere, to be Presidential candidates because they were "Natural born Citizens".
There is even an interesting side note. Maye Musk acquired US citizenship at birth because her father was a US citizen. Because she never resided in the US for the requisite period, she could not pass on that citizenship to Elon. ON the other hand, he was a Canadian by birth: From Toronto Globe and Star:
"[when he was 17 years old] He first tried to get U.S. citizenship on the grounds that his mother’s father had been born in Minnesota, but that failed because his mother had been born in Canada and had never claimed U.S. citizenship. So he concluded that getting to Canada might be an easier first step. He went to the Canadian consulate on his own, got application forms for a passport, and filled them out not only for himself but for his mother brother, and sister (but not father). The approvals came through in late May, 1989"

He was quoted some time ago as saying the only passport he holds now is the US one.

Evaluating our CEO historically is quite interesting. OTOH, many of us probably have eligibility for multiple citizenships. Many in the Americas have such eligibilities.
 
You are comparing a media company to an engineering/manufacturing company.
That's like comparing a hamburger to a boot.
He does, but TSLA is low historically and META today is +20%(!!). All the time high. I get this messes with people's head. It's funny because I just deactivated my account because of the continuous and mischievous shadowbanning on FB. Oh well.
 
Thanks for that. I've added my detailed opinion in Comment #63

TL;dr
  1. Elon was Chairman of the Board
  2. the Chairman controls the Board
  3. Investors knew that (or should have)
Paging @ggr Is this the thread you were referring to? Thanks again.

Cheers!
Point 2 is not necessarily true. It certainly is NOT true of Tesla at present, is it?
 
It is BS next level. Font Size, really?
Really:
FMVSS 135 : Federal Requirement
S5.5.5. Labeling.

(a) Each visual indicator shall display a word or words in accordance with the requirements of Standard No. 101 (49 CFR 571.101) and this section, which shall be legible to the driver under all daytime and nighttime conditions when activated. Unless otherwise specified, the words shall have letters not less than 3.2 mm (1⁄8 inch) high and the letters and background shall be of contrasting colors, one of which is red. Words or symbols in addition to those required by Standard No. 101 and this section may be provided for purposes of clarity.
FMVSS 105: Federal Requirement
S5.3.5

(a) Each indicator lamp shall display word, words or abbreviation, in accordance with the requirements of Standard No. 101 (49 CFR 571.101) and/or this section, which shall have letters not less than 1⁄8-inch high and be legible to the driver in daylight when lighted. Words in addition to those required by Standard No. 101 and/or this section and symbols may be provided for purposes of clarity.
Penalty for not meeting Federal Requirements: stop sale on all non-compliant vehicles
 
I believe price cuts will continue this year because COGS will keep going down as battery and raw material prices fall dramatically. But prices won't go down enough to negatively affect margins. I expect margins to go up slightly.

What this will do is crush the competition. And by competition, I'm including ICE cars. ICE is done and this is happening fast.

But a long term investment in TSLA is a bet on autonomy and bots. Autos and energy will continue to throw off enough cash to fund those projects and build out massive AI computing power. That's what you are buying when you buy into Tesla - autonomy and bots with the AI resources to get them working.

So the question becomes, when do autonomy and bots start to become a financial reality? (TL;DR - one to three years for both)

FSD V12 is looking really good. It looks like the platform that will not hit a local maximum. You just throw more training time at it and the system gets better and better. I think within a year, Tesla could start a trial of geofenced robotaxi even before Gen 3. Unlike Waymo, Tesla's system would be profitable very quickly because FSD is very low cost. Nobody else can match it from a cost perspective. Then Tesla starts pumping out Gen 3 vehicles, they enter more markets, and FSD gets better and better. In a few years, Tesla's robotaxis are everywhere and FSD is so good that geofencing is no longer needed.

As for the bots business, this could also become a reality quite soon. All Tesla needs to do is demonstrate that the bot can do useful work. Given the infinite number of possible use cases for a humanoid robot, finding profitable work for Optimus should not be too hard. So this should happen relatively soon. As the bot gets smarter and smarter through AI training, it becomes more and more valuable. So then the only question is if competition can drive the price down. But Tesla is the only company on the planet with all the core competencies needed to develop the humanoid robot and manufacture it at scale. The competion will try to keep up by partnering, but it won't be enough.

All it will take for the stock price to get huge is for the market to realize that autonomy and/or bots is really happening. One to three years is my estimate.
Recent gross automotive margins have been low (by some previous Tesla standards).

Seems that Tesla
  1. don't want ultra high margins (megapack pricing would support this view)
  2. don't want huge waiting lists
  3. this year - may not grow supply as high as demand requires
Consider the following
  1. EV demand growing in each market and globally
  2. Restrictions/taxes on Chinese made vehicles to some markets
  3. EV supply not keeping up with demand (some OEMs scaling back production)
  4. Tesla arguably best value EV in main segments
  5. To a large degree Tesla control pricing of EVs and sometimes ICE as well (BMW 3 Series uncompetitive)
My assumption is that if demand is high and waiting times get longer, prices will grow while Cost Of Goods Sold (COGS) falls by around 10% this year because of various Tesla and supplier improvements, scaling, input prices, plus suppliers hoping to get Model 2 supply business.

This leads to higher margins up to a level Tesla sees as a reasonable ceiling.

Future years, even better as demand rises, supply of Teslas rise, COGS lower - with potential for loan interest rates lowered and new models spurring yet more demand and economies of scale. This is just cars, plenty more potential.
 
I'm doubling down that there won't be many Kuka's going forwards.:

Check out this old Berlin fly through video:
  1. Stamping
    1. Single Kuka required per stamping - no change
    2. Optimus to provide logistics instead of humans
  2. Gigacastings
    1. Single Kuka required per casting - no change
    2. No change to logistics
  3. Welding
    1. Massive reduction (maybe 90% less to increased size of gigacastings and reduced stampings
  4. Painting
    1. No change
  5. Assembly
    1. Humans replaced by Optimus
I think each line could go from ~100 Kuka/FANUC style robots per line could be reduced to ~10.
Precision is in a close relationship to size. Big robots don't just introduce big forces, they are typically more precise at the same time. It's the same with Machine shops.

So Optimus can be precise to a degree (and super consistent), but if we're lining up stuff with laser precision, especially when handing any sizable mass, I don't think it would have anywhere near the precision as a Kuka. Just my take anyway.
 
Look we can only agree to disagree...

I actually think we have flat growth this year.
The first part is a popular, but ridiculous statement. Few of us agree with false statements.
IT is factually impossible to have 'flat growth'. Part of your repeated incorrect observations is typified by this one: 'flat' means 'absence of change' in this context so the word 'growth' should not appear.

There are numerous logical bases for cynicism about Tesla prospects this year. Unfortunately you are not mentioning those. Superficiality invariably leads to incorrect conclusions, whether positive or negative.

It would be beneficial to have careful, reasoned evidence of reasons for pessimism. We would learn by understanding them better, especially among the most optimistic of us. Someone would do a service by doing that. Clearly that someone is not you.
 
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