Tesla Unionization

[Buckminster]

New thread following recent debate on possible Swedish unionisation raised by @SwedishAdvocate.

 

[Buckminster]

All I can speak for is this worker, me, and back in the day when I worked I most definitely had a say.

If I didn't like working any particular job because of safety concerns, pay, or any other aspect I would find someplace else to work that I did like.

Throughout my life I did this many times and never once considered it any kind of hardship. It is a right and a choice to vote against a company with your feet.

My motto has always been, "I was looking for a job when I came here" and I could always do it again elsewhere.

 

[MC3OZ]

Most US perspectives differ very markedly from most Northern European ones. The illusion that worker participation in management decisions is necessarily stifling is popular in some circles. Still, the largest EU companies do tend to be the older ones. There are also small and medium sized ones and some huge ones that are newer.

To use an analogy American Unions might be more like "Divorce Lawyers" and Swedish Unions might be more like "Marriage Guidance Counsellors".

But IMO if a marriage is going fine they don't need outside help, and rather than solving a problem, outside help might create a problem.

Specifically a company and workers need the a Union unless all of the following are present:-

• Mutual Trust
• Mutual Respect
• The ability to communicate
• The ability to solve problems.
• Shared goals and values.
• The ability to negotiate a fair deal for both sides without jeopardising anything on the list above.

Modern companies often invest considerable time and money in recruiting training their workers, workers are often valuable because they are hard to replace, so the company knows it is in their best interests to give workers a fair deal.

Aside from the fact that it is conventional to have a union in an auto company in Sweden, what problem is it trying to address?

Tesla always needs to comply with local laws and should make an effort to fit into a society and the standard of behaviour expected in that society. However, "fitting in" doesn't include anything that would cause problems for the company.

If employees feel the need to routinely address problems via the union, rather than solving them directly with management, that might become a problem.

It is fine if the Union is only involved in problems the workers and management can't solve, we don't know if any such problems exist.

 

[MC3OZ]

Should various Corporate HQ's get to decide everything? Or should the actual workers also get to have a say?

Do workers get to have a say at Tesla?

Tesla is supposed to have a flat organisation structure where workers don't need to stay within the normal chain of command to report problems.

See my post above.

Attempting to supply help to a relationship that doesn't need any help might create more problems than it solves.

Any Tesla employee who is slightly unhappy can easy find a multitude of media outlets more than happy to report "off the record" complaints.

So if the Swedish Tesla workforce is unhappy, I would expect that there are plenty of stories in the media,

And if they are not unhappy, why do they need a union?

 

[Buckminster]

I am anti union having seen the self harm first hand where I worked much of my career. Their jobs have moved abroad mostly now. Im sure unions can be good in certain situations where the majority stay in low paid jobs for their entire career. Tesla is different because they are not low paid and most will climb the greasy pole. Tesla don’t take advantage like other organisations also.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

As of now I intend to stay out of this thread.

I had this(?) debate back in 2014 on this forum. If anyone is interested you can find it here:

Unions

Tesla's last annual financial report struck a far less welcoming note. It listed the possibility of union activity under "risks" to the business. heh :) I'll admit to not being too knowledgeable on this front, but as an entrepreneur that likes to remain nimble, I shudder at the idea of any...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[2daMoon]

Maybe I mispoke (I find it hard to articulate well my thought in English nowadays).
If K. prejudice was that there is zero evidence that Tesla is doing bad by their employees, also the opposite can be said:
there is zero evidence that Tesla is doing the best => so they are entitled to (try to) negotiate.

Negotiation always depends upon two or more parties being willing to do so.
"Entitled" may not be the best term here, as nobody is entitled to force another to negotiate, though "try to" sums it up quite well.

I fully agree there has not been sufficient data to form a conclusion as to whether or not any need for negotiation exists.

This lack of open dialogue regarding whether or not conditions exist that would necessitate a collective agreement to resolve an actual problem is a troubling factor that smells of propaganda.

It could as easily be that Tesla is exceeding the criteria the union establishes in their areas of control and are painting a picture of how a well run business could manage quite nicely by their employees without collective agreements. This scenario raises the possibility of how Tesla may somehow be illustrating that the union isn't needed, and undermining their established base of control.

Only evidence of an actual issue, or, abundant evidence of the absence of any issues will paint a less obfuscated picture.

 

[2daMoon]

Generally speaking, people have instincts that lean toward a desire for central leadership. This is rooted in survival and passed on through evolution. We have a deeply rooted desire for someone else to be taking care of us. This is reinforced during the parent-child relationship in the over the decade and a half of formative years necessary to prepare a child for the world around them.

It isn't at all unexpected that most people will prefer to let someone else take the reins and care for the more complex aspects of their life rather than work toward developing the skills to manage this or that on their own. It is a natural thing that likely exists deep in our lizard brain and DNA. The Alpha rules the pack for the good of the pack.

The greater the perceived complexity of the issue, the quicker the desire to capitulate to someone claiming to be able to manage it for them seems like a good idea.

This is how promises of taking care of someone easily garners their trust and support, regardless of whether or not doing so actually makes their life measurably better. The preference to believe this cements their continued support of whomever assured them that belonging to this particular tribe is good for them.

A few radicals will always desire to take measurements, gather data, and otherwise determine for themselves if there is any benefit in going along to get along. Thus determining with certainty who benefits and how they do. Then, they will want to share these facts for others' benefit.

This will always rankle the disposition of those who feel most comfortable believing that someone else is taking care of this or that aspect on their behalf.

Regardless of whether or not their safety and well being might be better managed by themselves, when confronted with the possibility that their belief may be misplaced, they will fight, tooth and nail, to defend not the "someone else caretaker" but their own, deeply rooted feelings of safety and well-being which the belief provides them.

People, are a problem.

 

[Buckminster]

Yeah, this is not a good comparison. Europe is very much not one job market. While it is much more common today than a couple of decades ago it takes a lot more to move even from a neighboring country than it does to move to another state in the US. Not only legally but also mentally. Never mind the language problem. My English is pretty decent but apart from the other Scandinavian countries it would not be easy to find any jobs outside IT and manual labor in the rest of EU. Even within most countries people are much less likely to move than in the US where few even think twice about moving to another state or coast.

Also a lot of those that actually move to another country is a version of Polish construction workers (leaving families behind) usually moving east/north working for lots less money than nationals.

This actually makes it harder for say a Swedish construction worker (or mechanic) to get a new job because there are a lot of EU immigrants competing who won't complain about salaries, vacation time, unsafe conditions etc. Because without a job they have to go back home.

The collective agreement has worked for a long time. It's not without issues but it historically exists instead of many labor laws. For example, as has been mentioned, there is no minimum pay in Sweden. Which ironically has caused Sweden to actually fight against a EU minimum pay since it would be lower than the agreement.

Many commenters seems too think this is some evil agreement imposed by unions. It's actually agreements (there are several different ones for different sectors) between different unions and (also several different) employer associations. You know, associations where Tesla would have an input if they actually cared. The employer associations also wants your company to sign the agreement.

The agreement adds very little extra cost. Like less than a percent. There are some additional pension costs but at a much lower percentage than say most 401 matching plans in the US.

As someone that has been on both sides. Both a union member, and now part owner of a company that has around 10 part time employees, I personally think this system works really well.

There is absolutely nothing that prohibits us from giving shares to any employees. Not that we do but we could. Or paying more than the agreement says. Which we do.

Another common misconception seems to assume workers has to be union members if there is a union at the workplace. If you're not you still get the same pay etc but the union does not represent you (or go on strike for you) if there is a problem. But nowadays it's really your choice. There used to be peer pressure about joining decades ago but that is pretty much gone. I doubt any of ours are. I've never asked.

Is this system perfect? No, but it works. If you want it to change it's something that should be done via a political process. Not because Elon Musk doesn't like unions.

I see lots of fair pro/against union anecdotes here.

From Tesla's perspective, Tesla Sweden does not have the mandate to enter collective agreements so they will not. Maybe Tesla US will change their policy, but likely not at least for a while as then they open up the fight everywhere and they don't want to take the fight everywhere. So the Swedish union will apply more pressure to force Tesla to do something they don't want. Tesla will likely not cave so they will have to apply even more pressure. Doing this is not cheap, the union have to pay workers for not working and not fulfilling transport contracts with Tesla will cost the companies doing this. But these companies have agreed to the collective agreement so they are now forced to do it, this is probably one of the reasons Tesla are so against unions. And the salaries have to be paid by someone and it will come from the fees that the union members are paying, that's why so few Tesla workers want to pay the fees.

For now Tesla seems to be doing okay without the few Tesla workers on strike. They will shuffle, hire a few new people and keep business as usual. The union will call them names "strejkbrytare"(strike breaker), "svartfot"(blackfoot) etc, but Tesla will not care. If they cannot unload the boats they will either find other non unionized boats or they will hire some non Swedish company to drive them on trucks from Berlin to Sweden. The distances are not huge anyway, it's a 7h drive from Giga Berlin to Tesla Malmö, is it even worth using boats for that? Stockholm is 13h away though.

Cost will go up slightly for Tesla and this will be added to the price of doing business in Sweden.

As Tesla doesn't cave in, expect the unions to start to play more dirty. Have workers standing outside of Tesla stores heckling customers, lots of negative articles in the press and lots of current thing people who suddenly have changed their mind and no longer want to buy a Tesla as if they ever considered it in the first place. This might drag on for a while, we have to very stubborn organisations with deep pockets. But hopefully Tesla can sign some "not a union"-collective agreement where they promise what they already offer and that they will only make EVs, but not joining IF Metall...

 

[MC3OZ]

If we are going to discuss Unions on this form this is the right thread to do.

if you don't want to discuss it here, then please keep it out of the main thread.

I'm all for relaxed moderation as long as posts contain interesting and informative information, or at least new information, or new points of view, IMO most posts on the subject in the main thread belong in the rubbish bin.

That is not because I agree or disagree with a particular ideological point of view. It is because assumptions, ideology and bias don't add anything of value to an investors forum.

If you have evidence, facts, reason and logic, then please post them in this thread, because it will be a rare and valuable contribution.

 

[2daMoon]

It now seems the suspicions of propaganda and ulterior motives on the part of the union have been substantiated.

Tesla union strike fails in Sweden as workers refused to walk out: report

The Tesla staff reportedly noted that they did not see the need to strike because their working conditions and wages were already good.

www.teslarati.com

TLDR:
From the article-"Overall, only a few people who were union members opted to go on strike across the country. The majority of union members at Tesla Sweden opted to stay at work. Interestingly enough, the employees who opted to share their thoughts on the matter decided to keep their anonymity over fear of reprisal — not from Tesla but from the union itself."

EDIT: This is stale news we've already seen. Thanks @SwedishAdvocate for your diligence.

 

[HVM]

Even National Public Television Broadcaster (SVT) says that strike was a dud: "But work is still going on in the workshop. According to SVT's reporter on site, at least six employees were seen inside the workshop."

Strejk vid Teslas verkstad i Örebro

Sedan midnatt strejkar IF Metalls medlemmar vid Teslas olika verkstäder runtom i Sverige. I Örebro finns under fredagen strejkvakter utanför företagets lokaler. – Beklagligt, för vi har alltid velat gå till förhandlingsbordet, säger Greger Kammerland, IF Metall-ordförande i Örebro.

www.svt.se

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

It now seems the suspicions of propaganda and ulterior motives on the part of the union have been substantiated.

Tesla union strike fails in Sweden as workers refused to walk out: report

The Tesla staff reportedly noted that they did not see the need to strike because their working conditions and wages were already good.

www.teslarati.com

TLDR:
From the article-"Overall, only a few people who were union members opted to go on strike across the country. The majority of union members at Tesla Sweden opted to stay at work. Interestingly enough, the employees who opted to share their thoughts on the matter decided to keep their anonymity over fear of reprisal — not from Tesla but from the union itself."

And that is now the fourth time the same article by the President of Tesla Club Sweden has been posted on the forum. The first three times it happened was in the investors roundtable thread. I have added some further context to that article here:

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

Bit of a niche topic. Doubt anyone has heard about it here but you never know. Some additional context: The author of that article is the President of Tesla Club Sweden. Source in Swedish: https://teslaclubsweden.se/om-oss/contact-us-page/ The original article in Swedish at Tesla Club...

teslamotorsclub.com

And here:

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

The market is currently pricing that the FOMC will start cutting rates in June 2024, but the chart below shows that the market is almost always wrong about what the Fed will do beyond the next FOMC meeting. Looking at the chart, it is remarkable how mean reverting the error is. When rates are...

teslamotorsclub.com

But I guess I can also quote the second post above in this thread:

"
The author of that article is the President of Tesla Club Sweden. The President of Tesla Club Sweden went to one shop in Stockholm and talked to the workers. Now put yourself in the workers shoes. Would you express criticism towards your employer while at work in that employer's shop? And would you do so while being interviewed by the President of Tesla Club Sweden during a conflict between the union and the employer?...

There are reports that executives at Tesla's Swedish subsidiary has threatened employes that they will loose their stock options if they strike. Those can allegedly currently be worth some 8,000 USD. Would you go on strike if it would cost you 8,000 USD? Would you go on strike if that is the message Tesla is sending to their mechanics?

I'll admit that there is quite a lot of things that are difficult to actually know about this conflict.

There also doesn't seem to be a lot of accurate unbiased reporting in English on this.

But if I find any such accurate unbiased reporting I'll make sure to post it here. [May or may not...]
"

The source about loosing stock options is from the the union's own newspaper (in Swedish):

”Inga optioner, inga bonusar, ingen semester, inga försäkringar”

IF Metalls ombIF Metalls ombudsman Peter Lydell berättar vad Tesla hotar anställda med

da.se

 

[2daMoon]

I guess that is the thing about "news" is how it is parroted by other news outlets leaving the reader unaware it is older than the date they copied it. Seeing it on Teslarati for the first time this morning, I read their text as if it were fresh.

Thanks for the clarification, again, @SwedishAdvocate

 

[HVM]

There are no working strike currently, but of course, if LO really want, it can close ports and road and rail-road transports related to Tesla. But I guess there needs to be a strike to join...

But those are heavy guns and unlike it's eastern banana state neighbour, where any kind scabish behaviour end up with dockworkers and truckers join to strike. Sweden is more sophisticated Kingdom where more civilised means are used. ; P

*(LO Landsorganisationen i Sverige, Swedish Trade Union Confederation

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Even National Public Television Broadcaster (SVT) says that strike was a dud: "But work is still going on in the workshop. According to SVT's reporter on site, at least six employees were seen inside the workshop."

Strejk vid Teslas verkstad i Örebro

Sedan midnatt strejkar IF Metalls medlemmar vid Teslas olika verkstäder runtom i Sverige. I Örebro finns under fredagen strejkvakter utanför företagets lokaler. – Beklagligt, för vi har alltid velat gå till förhandlingsbordet, säger Greger Kammerland, IF Metall-ordförande i Örebro.

www.svt.se

I guess it can be characterized as "a dud" in Örebro as of now. But the union will widen the conflict this coming Friday.

I'm not 100% on the following, but it could be that the last time a US company was in conflict over signing a Collective agreement in Sweden was back in 1995. That time it was Toys "R" Us, so granted not exactly a company like Tesla. But that conflict lasted some 4 months.

Toys "R" Us eventually signed.

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/06/nyregion/in-brief-toys-r-us-settles-labor-dispute-that-made-headlines-in-sweden.html

 

[mars_or_bust]

I guess it can be characterized as "a dud" in Örebro as of now. But the union will widen the conflict this coming Friday.

I'm not 100% on the following, but it could be that the last time a US company was in conflict over signing a Collective agreement in Sweden was back in 1995. That time it was Toys "R" Us, so granted not exactly a company like Tesla. But that conflict lasted some 4 months.

Toys "R" Us eventually signed.

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/06/nyregion/in-brief-toys-r-us-settles-labor-dispute-that-made-headlines-in-sweden.html

And Toys R Us eventually bankrupted.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

And Toys R Us eventually bankrupted.

Yes.

And Volvo AB (not the car maker owned by Chinese Geely) and Scania as well as every(?) other large company in Sweden did not.

So...

 

[mars_or_bust]

Yes.

And Volvo AB (not the car maker owned by Chinese Geely) and Scania as well as every(?) other large company in Sweden did not.

So...

Scania is 100% owned by VW

And I don't think VW has a bright future. They'll survive only if they get bailed out by the government.

So...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Scania is 100% owned by VW

And I don't think VW has a bright future. They'll survive only if they get bailed out by the government.

So...

And if VW is bailed out by the gov., will that be because of various Collective agreements in Germany and Sweden, or because of decisions affecting the core business that has been made by Corporate Management?