Tesla Unionization

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

At least someone in the union camp is publicly calling IF Metall Sweden out for their unsavory tactics.

This reveals that a "duty to work" aspect exists in union agreements, and, that political and union business goals are never supposed to be part of the purpose for any union. All of which aligns well with a world of logic and reason.

Not so much alignment with extortion tactics, attention-getting stunts, and putting their union members second to their goals of securing power as we here have expected to find further evidence supporting.

It's a German union talking about German law, which implies that you can't have secondary action.

Law changes in the UK in the 1980s in response the NUM (coal miners) strike also ban secondary action, as well as requiring secret ballots before a strike.

 

[2daMoon]

It's a German union talking about German law, which implies that you can't have secondary action.

Law changes in the UK in the 1980s in response the NUM (coal miners) strike also ban secondary action, as well as requiring secret ballots before a strike.

It is nice to have a nearby reference point provided to measure IF Metall Sweden's actions against.

Banning secondary action appears to have been viewed as a benefit for union/employer relationships elsewhere. This illustrates how strong-arm tactics aren't considered a useful negotiating tactic by some neighboring unions.

 

[2daMoon]

This is why Elon doesn't want unions. Having the unions trying to run operations.

Thyssenkrupp workers warn against confrontational management approach

DUESSELDORF (Reuters) - Thyssenkrupp must not divest its steel and marine units against the will of workers, the group's labour leaders said on Friday, criticising the conglomerate's top leadership for a new confrontational approach to decisions. T...

kfgo.com

DUESSELDORF (Reuters) – Thyssenkrupp must not divest its steel and marine units against the will of workers, the group’s labour leaders said on Friday, criticising the conglomerate’s top leadership for a new confrontational approach to decisions.

The comments, made in a handout by the IG Metall union to staff, come a week after the group’s management expanded the board by two seats against despite labour opposition, which unions called a break with tradition.

In a dynamically changing market there will always be turning points for a business which are required for survival, and often these can include reduction in force measures. Delay or halfhearted attempts might fall too short, or, too slowly to right a ship in troubled waters.

Having the employees/union be able to vote on whether to place a priority on saving jobs in the short term, ahead of adopting a long term strategy for business survival, could be a decision that bites the union members in the rear due to their shortsightedness and tendency to encourage an adversarial employee/employer relationship.

Whereas, encouraging a cooperative employee/employer relationship can be shown to provide an opportunity for employees to offer strategies for improvement, savings, growth and betterment for the company they depend upon for their livelihood. Tesla is an example for this model.

When a good working relationship is encouraged, and, all barriers to being agile and flexible are removed, amazing growth and progress are the result. This is what proves the "Tesla model" as being superior to the union model. It breaks down the walls that have traditionally been so carefully built between employee and employer. Every aspect of the working relationship is improved, and everyone works toward a shared goal.

The proof of the effectiveness of this model is obvious to all who will examine it. Excepting those who would have to forfeit their positions of power and influence because they are unable to adapt to a less adversarial model that would bring greater boons to their members than the union's futile tantrums ever will.

 

[Rarity]

Re: SpaceX injury rates and "industry averages"

I recall this was posted to the SpaceX Reddit when the article was first published and I don't recall specifics but various comments pointed out that comparing SpaceX to someplace like Boeing or such (i.e. aerospace industry) currently didn't make sense , it would make more sense to compare to heavy industry (big steel works, working at great heights, etc) vs modern aerospace that has a lot less potential for injury. From memory, the injury rate compared to heavy industry was more or less average.

Of course it might be that 90% of injuries are due to people tripping over uncovered network cables in the office instead of injuries on the many high risk jobs around Boca, but nobody without an agenda has access to the data to prove it I've way it the other.

It is possible to cherry pick these things all day, but if you evaluate what is happening at Starbase, they are creating a manufacturing process that is explicitly different than what aerospace has done heretofore. It is more akin to a shipyard than a cleanroom.

Compared to unionized shipyards in the United States, Starbase is in-family. The Starbase injury rate (6.1 injuries/ 100-employee in 2022) is comparable to the big Ingalls shipyards in Newport News and Pascagoula (4.6-5.9 injuries/100-employee in 2021).

There are big changes happening all the time at Starbase. They are changing manufacturing methods on the fly. It is chaotic. But I suspect the injury rate will subside over the next few years as they settle into the under-construction Starfactory.

Mod edit: units were wrong. --ggr

 

[2daMoon]

Besides, these sort of articles, such as those about injury rates for other Musk companies, are being presented mostly to steer the attention away from the fact that Tesla itself, in regard to Tesla Sweden, is operating well within the expected standards, if not exceeding them.

More evidence of propaganda being employed when facts are unable to support justification for their attack vector.

 

[Rarity]

Propagandists will propagandize. Nothing can be done about that, and it's probably only just getting started. German unionized propagandists can sympathize with IF Metall, even if a sympathy strike by IG Metall is illegal.

 

[heltok]

Tesla överklagar postbeslut - Nyheter (Ekot)

Elbilstillverkaren Tesla överklagar Solna tingsrätts beslut om att Postnord inte behöver dela ut post och andra försändelser till Tesla i väntan på att ...

sverigesradio.se

Tesla appeals postal decision​

Published today at 11.38am

• The electric car manufacturer Tesla is appealing the Solna district court's decision that Postnord does not have to deliver mail and other shipments to Tesla pending a ruling on the matter.
• Tesla has sued Postnord in order to get the state-owned company to release, among other things, license plates for new cars, despite the fact that both post offices have put that work under blockade.
• It was a setback for Tesla in the district court and Tesla is now appealing that decision to the Court of Appeal.

Details here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1734236864591139179

 

[heltok]

Some details from the documents(sorry for error in copy paste translate):

Since the day of the filing of the lawsuit and until today - ie. during a period of only 13 days - another 897 new Tesla cars have been registered, ordered by Tesla's customers, see Appendix 4. The registration plates for these 897 vehicles are sent by mail via PostNord with Tesla as the addressee. Of these postal items will be collected by PostNord to be kept in PostNord's possession. Tesla's second be-
take security measures (the claim in point 2 of this appeal) also against such additional mail items that are in PostNord's possession at the time of final. Until today, a total of 925 new cars ordered by Tesla's Swedish customers are without registration
plates, which is a necessary component for the vehicle to be taken into traffic.
And this has occurred in as short a period of time as three weeks.
To the above must be added that Tesla's mail shipments naturally also contain other things than registration plates, for example time-sensitive and important correspondence with authorities, customers, suppliers and insurance companies. * It is in the nature of things
that Tesla cannot always know what these (and future) mailings contain. However, Tesla is aware that, among other things, Tesla has not received shipments containing the following content:
• Invoices for vehicle tax
• Confirmation of vehicle de-registration
• Certificate of registration
• Invoices for congestion tax
• Specially adapted tools for Tesla vehicles
• Office supplies
• Technical components
• Parking fines
• Consumables for workshops
• IT equipment
• Shipments from attorney's fees
• Insurance letter
• Correspondence in debt collection matters
• Shipments from abroad (including speeding fines)
• Equipment to connect Tesla's Supercharger network to a grid
• Electric bills for Tesla's Supercharger network
• Decision regarding building permits for the construction of new Supercharger stations
• Invoices for the construction of new Supercharger stations

 

[adiggs]

Tesla överklagar postbeslut - Nyheter (Ekot)

Elbilstillverkaren Tesla överklagar Solna tingsrätts beslut om att Postnord inte behöver dela ut post och andra försändelser till Tesla i väntan på att ...

sverigesradio.se

Tesla appeals postal decision​

Published today at 11.38am

• The electric car manufacturer Tesla is appealing the Solna district court's decision that Postnord does not have to deliver mail and other shipments to Tesla pending a ruling on the matter.
• Tesla has sued Postnord in order to get the state-owned company to release, among other things, license plates for new cars, despite the fact that both post offices have put that work under blockade.
• It was a setback for Tesla in the district court and Tesla is now appealing that decision to the Court of Appeal.

Details here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1734236864591139179

There must be nuance that I don't understand, because it sounds to me like Postnord has staked out a position in which they claim the right to monitor the mail (privacy!!), and then deliver the mail that they feel like and not delivering the mail that they don't feel like.

The union hasn't staked out a position in which it is ok for union members to strike in its entirety (people don't show up for work). Instead the position staked out is that they can pick and choose who to deliver mail to. I realize that there must be important nuance that I'm missing because otherwise this sounds like people should seriously question using the post for anything at all; for privacy reasons if nothing else.

It certainly sounds like anything that you actually need to be certain will be delivered needs to be delivered some other way.


Growing up and exclusively living in the US its hard for me to even write those words as they are so nonsensical to me.


EDIT: Just read the previous post, and its even worse than I thought. Postnord has staked out a position in which not only can they monitor the post and decide what to deliver and what not to deliver - they can go ahead and take (steal) the mail that they feel like stealing. There really must be nuance that I'm missing.

At minimum they're staking out a right to delay delivery of whatever mail they feel like, for as long as they feel like delaying it.

 

[Tiger]

Some details from the documents(sorry for error in copy paste translate):

Makes me wonder can't they just spin a "Not a Tesla Ltd" and process everything in their name?

 

[heltok]

There must be nuance that I don't understand, because it sounds to me like Postnord has staked out a position in which they claim the right to monitor the mail (privacy!!), and then deliver the mail that they feel like and not delivering the mail that they don't feel like.

The union hasn't staked out a position in which it is ok for union members to strike in its entirety (people don't show up for work). Instead the position staked out is that they can pick and choose who to deliver mail to. I realize that there must be important nuance that I'm missing because otherwise this sounds like people should seriously question using the post for anything at all; for privacy reasons if nothing else.

It certainly sounds like anything that you actually need to be certain will be delivered needs to be delivered some other way.


Growing up and exclusively living in the US its hard for me to even write those words as they are so nonsensical to me.


EDIT: Just read the previous post, and its even worse than I thought. Postnord has staked out a position in which not only can they monitor the post and decide what to deliver and what not to deliver - they can go ahead and take (steal) the mail that they feel like stealing. There really must be nuance that I'm missing.

At minimum they're staking out a right to delay delivery of whatever mail they feel like, for as long as they feel like delaying it.

Here is the translation of what Tesla's lawyers(which is one of the most respected lawyer group in Sweden) argue:
(It's hard to copypaste, but I told chatgpt to have some artistic freedom in making it look nicer, sorry if it went a bit overboard)

Tesla's Legal Claims and PostNord's Obligations: A Summary


I. Introduction to Tesla's Legal Claims

• Date of Initial Summons: November 27, 2023 (Appendix 1)
• Subsequent Statements by Tesla:
  • December 3, 2023 (Appendix 2)
  • December 6, 2023 (Appendix 3)

Tesla reiterates the same legal grounds as developed for the district court proceedings.

II. Summary of Tesla's GroundsTesla's claim revolves around mailings that are currently held by PostNord and are addressed to Tesla. Under the postal law (2010:1045), other relevant postal legislation, and PostNord's operational conditions ("The Terms of Service"), PostNord is obliged to distribute these mailings to Tesla. There are no applicable exceptions allowing PostNord to neglect this duty. Tesla, owning the mailings, rightfully demands possession of them.

III. PostNord's Position and Tesla's Counterarguments

• Force Majeure Argument:
  • Tesla argues that the relationship between Tesla and PostNord is non-contractual, and current postal legislation does not provide grounds for PostNord to invoke force majeure.
  • No contractual or legal support exists for PostNord to claim force majeure in its dealings with Tesla.
  • Tesla refutes any existence of unforeseen obstacles outside PostNord's control that could justify a force majeure claim.

IV. PostNord's Operational Obligations

• Tesla emphasizes that there are no legal or practical impediments preventing PostNord from using organized[mistranslation by chatgpt, non-organized/non-unionized] labor or subcontractors to fulfill its duties towards Tesla.
• Allegations suggest PostNord has not even attempted to undertake all lawful measures to ensure Tesla receives its mail.
• The possibility for PostNord to distribute mailings is further evidenced by its partial mail delivery to Tesla during sympathy actions by Sekos and STis.

V. Tesla's Legal Position

• Tesla has demonstrated probable cause for its claim, recognized by the district court.
• The court has also found evidence of sabotage in PostNord's actions, leading to Tesla's mail deprivation.

VI. Proposed Security Measures

• Tesla argues for suitable and proportional security measures.
• These measures do not impose an undue burden on PostNord, which claims no right over the mailings but holds them due to a labor market conflict.
• Delay in providing the mailings could render the security measure, and even the main judgment, ineffective.

VII. Special Circumstances and Tesla's Security Proposal

• Tesla outlines the importance of uninterrupted access to postal services, a vital societal function.
• If these measures are not granted, Tesla faces prolonged deprivation of postal services.

VIII. The Importance of Postal ServicesThe legislation recognizes the significance of timely access to mailings for individuals and businesses. Prolonged denial of this right could lead to substantial legal inconvenience and damage, regardless of the affected party.


This formatted summary highlights Tesla's legal stance and the obligations of PostNord in the context of the ongoing legal dispute.

 

[MP3Mike]

At minimum they're staking out a right to delay delivery of whatever mail they feel like, for as long as they feel like delaying it.

I think PostNord is taking the position that they can't force their, union, employees to go against sympathy actions. That means that they need to hire non-union members, or sub-contractors, to perform that work. (Are they even allowed to hire non-union?) Or maybe management is non-union and can perform those duties themselves?

 

[adiggs]

I think PostNord is taking the position that they can't force their, union, employees to go against sympathy actions. That means that they need to hire non-union members to perofm that work. (Are they even allowed to hire non-union?) Or maybe management is non-union and can perform those duties themselves?

This might be the single action by IF Metall that does the most to hurt their larger position within society. Any politician that wants to can run with this and just beat on the union like crazy.

Postnord should be taking the stance that they can't force union members to do this work, in which case they need to actually strike. Picking and choosing what to deliver sounds like a violation of company (and establishes the precedent for individual) privacy.

And the larger point that the post is a fundamental and necessary activity of the country. Heck - the precedent would even support Postnord union employees deciding to not deliver (and retain possession of) mail destined for the government.


Postnord should be fighting this alongside of Tesla, even if that includes publicly supporting the larger effort against Tesla. You don't mess with the post office and the mail.

 

[heltok]

This might be the single action by IF Metall that does the most to hurt their larger position within society. Any politician that wants to can run with this and just beat on the union like crazy.

Postnord should be taking the stance that they can't force union members to do this work, in which case they need to actually strike. Picking and choosing what to deliver sounds like a violation of company (and establishes the precedent for individual) privacy.

And the larger point that the post is a fundamental and necessary activity of the country. Heck - the precedent would even support Postnord union employees deciding to not deliver (and retain possession of) mail destined for the government.


Postnord should be fighting this alongside of Tesla, even if that includes publicly supporting the larger effort against Tesla. You don't mess with the post office and the mail.

I think the conclusion is that governments have a legal duty they need to fulfil. They have been hiring unionized companies to help them fulfil this duty, but this shows that unionized companies cannot guarantee that they are able to perform this task. In the future the government might be prevented from using unionized companies or at least never give one the full responsibility as unionized companies cannot guarantee that they will help them fulfil their duty.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

At the very least, Postnord should be required to allow Tesla to show up and pick up their mail themselves. Though that might have issues if Postnord accepts mail for delivery at all locations and don't route the mail at all, Tesla would have to run all over the place to pick up the mail. If it was just last mile km delivery being interdicted, then it would be manageable at least.

The idea that the union workers can selectively work seems pretty questionable, you're either on strike or not. Pretty sure that wouldn't fly here. Since it shouldn't qualify as striking, they should all be in danger of losing their jobs. But since they're unionized it will probably take 3-6 months even after getting a ruling that this not-a-strike is not at strike.

 

[MP3Mike]

The idea that the union workers can selectively work seems pretty questionable, you're either on strike or not.

They are not striking, they are performing a "sympathy action", which is apparently perfectly legal in Sweden. (Just like Tesla operating without a collective agreement is perfectly legal.)

This is the same thing happening in repair, and body, workshops. They work on other vehicles but not Teslas. At least one shop said 70% of their business was Tesla vehicles, and that he will likely have to let some workers go. Since they are not striking they can't receive strike pay from their union. (Though apparently the business can apply for supportive funding, or permission for their employees to not partake in the sympathy action, from the union if it impacts them too much.) We know one Tesla part supplier said that they have at least 20 people displaced, and it was really hurting them. In addition, they have already applied for, and received permission, to reduce their workforce as a result. (I can't imagine Tesla keeping their contract with them, as the company can't guarantee a consistent supply of parts.)

 

[adiggs]

I think the conclusion is that governments have a legal duty they need to fulfil. They have been hiring unionized companies to help them fulfil this duty, but this shows that they cannot do this. In the future the government might be prevented from using unionized companies or at least never give one the full responsibility as unionized companies cannot guarantee that they will help them fulfil their duty.

Exactly.

Sub contracting government work - I am in favor of the concept generally. The functions that I am strongly opposed to are anything that involves the state's application of force / violence on behalf of society. That mostly means the police function, prisons, but also include tax collection. Oh - and the military / defense! The profit incentive can't promote a private individual / company doing violence (financial, physical, rights, etc..) on behalf of the state. Only the state / government can do that.

(I mention these as privatized prisons are a thing here in the US, and I am appalled that anybody ever thought that was a good idea. We also have speeding tickets getting issued by private companies that get to keep a share of what they generate/collect from the tickets. The profit incentive has led to all sorts of abuses).

In this case - if the subcontractor is unable to satisfy the government duty to deliver the mail, that is the government that is deciding not to satisfy its duty to deliver the mail. You don't get to blame the subcontractor - they're doing your bidding. Government performance of its societal commitment can't be questioned - there's only chaos down that road.

 

[2daMoon]

I'm partial to the concept of any company whose union employees wish to join the sympathy movement be required by law to establish a picket line, and do no work at all until the strike has ended. This business of picking and choosing that they can work on this, but not on that is unusual in a strike situation, isn't it?

Particularly so for postal services. Employees should not be allowed to pick out mail to specific addressees. Legal documents with timeline sensitive information should be guaranteed delivery in order to keep a healthy society running smoothly. Though the post is a guaranteed item under the US Constitution, my understanding of how it works in Sweden is without reference for me.

Any late fees, fines, and other costs and penalties which are incurred by Tesla over this should be sued for and paid (treble damages?) out of that easy billion IF Metall has in their war chest.

They are already duplicating license plates when the new owners have to file for a "lost" plate for their new car. Presumably, the original plates held by the post will be unused/destroyed.

It will be interesting to see how Swedish court handles this. I have no idea if there are any significant differences between their legal system and the Common Law / Constitutional system of the US which is most familiar to me.

 

[adiggs]

They are not striking, they are performing a "sympathy action", which is apparently perfectly legal in Sweden. (Just like Tesla operating without a collective agreement is perfectly legal.)

This is the same thing happening in repair, and body, workshops. They work on other vehicles but not Teslas. At least one shop said 70% of their business was Tesla vehicles, and that he will likely have to let some workers go. Since they are not striking they can't receive strike pay from their union. (Though apparently the business can apply for supportive funding, or permission for their employees to not partake in the sympathy action, from the union if it impacts them too much.) We know one Tesla part supplier said that they have at least 20 people displaced, and it was really hurting them. In addition, they have already applied for, and received permission, to reduce their workforce as a result. (I can't imagine Tesla keeping their contract with them, as the company can't guarantee a consistent supply of parts.)

I wouldn't choose the sympathy strike myself, but that its legal is something I'm ok with.

That's why I think the union went too far with the Postnord sympathy action - that calls into question whether the government can be trusted to perform its basic functions. Private businesses that choose to do work for specific customers - not a business choice I would make, but I recognize that different countries and different cultures is important. That is an expression of freedom of speech, association - I dunno what all - on the part of the private business, and they have the right to make that choice.

Government acting to isolate a member of society - that's what the freedoms are specifically intended to guarantee won't happen. To be free of government interference in speech, association, what have you. I'm pretty sure that Sweden is a democracy, and probably scores higher on freedom measures than the US. That there is a single court decision supporting this is dramatically worse than the idea somebody had that this would be a good idea.


Everything else that's been done so far - I think its a bad idea, but at least its legal and hasn't drafted the government into violating fundamental societal norms of a functioning democracy.

 

[Cobos]

I’m no expert. But a cursory look turns up that Postnord is the Swedish Postal Service. Or rather it’s a joint venture between the Danish and Swedish postal services. Owned 60% 40% by the Swedish and Danish state. Which I guess is the same as in Norway. Posten is 100% owned by Norwegian state, but its employees are not state employees. Like it is in the US. So they are “for profit” companies owned by the state.