Tesla uses 1/6 the energy compared to gasoline

[mswlogo]

But in actuality, he did not apply all ICE losses. The inefficiency of the engine is just the last step in the ground to gas tank process. Refining that gallon of gas takes at least 6KWh worth of energy, which my YP with me driving would go 19 miles on, before I even started to use the gas. And I've seen far more negative claims for that cost than 6. That gas has to then be transported to the gas station as well. And then going back further, you have the extraction effort and transport of the crude, though now you have to start doing some comparisons to lithium extraction to keep it honest.

I think it's a losing battle to engage the cavemen of the internet. You can try to go on cost instead, though that is highly variable. But I know that for power supplied by my rooftop solar, I'm paying 3.4 cents per mile. For a typical ICE vehicle, that means 90-95cent gallon of gas. That value means something to people. OTOH, superchargers can move that as high as $3.40, which doesn't look nearly so compelling. So to make it easy, just say my car is faster. Video game fast.

The fuels that got into turbines have to be refined too. So start at the same point.

Refined fossil fuel into turbine and refined fossil fuel into gas tank. Then compare.

If I recall the best Turbines are like 70% efficient. And ICE pushing 40%. Toyota now claiming 50% with a new engine. So there is no way Electric backed by Fossil is 6x more efficient. Even if Turbine was 100% efficient that’s not possible. Then a lot of losses to get it into your battery. And in winter excess heat is used on ICE but watts used on EV.

 

[kelpcar]

I liked your post, but this sentence is wrong. Your EV can travel 19 miles on 6 kWh of electricity, while the refining takes 6 kWh of heat energy.

---
I honestly find this discussion to be a blind alley. I think the only useful conclusion is that EVs can be clean if fueled with clean energy, and should be fueled with clean energy. So everybody should drive an EV and not an ICE, AND either build personal PV and/or vote and adocate for accelerated clean energy.

Clean energy and transport using clean energy is the only thing that matters.

I don't feel the descriptor matters. It translates to needed more than a gallon of gas to generate a gallon, so the comparison should be made to the truer amount.

As for 'must use clean energy,' why? Electricity from natural gas plants is far more efficient, cleaner than the exhaust from thousands of cars. That's true even for the coal plants. Let's not turn up our nose on 3x, 4x, 5x improvements in the pursuit of pure.

 

[kelpcar]

The fuels that got into turbines have to be refined too. So start at the same point.

Refined fossil fuel into turbine and refined fossil fuel into gas tank. Then compare.

If I recall the best Turbines are like 70% efficient. And ICE pushing 40%. Toyota now claiming 50% with a new engine. So there is no way Electric backed by Fossil is 6x more efficient. Even if Turbine was 100% efficient that’s not possible. Then a lot of losses to get it into your battery. And in winter excess heat is used on ICE but watts used on EV.

Refinement of natural gas, and even coal, for power generation is simpler than oil refinement. But more to the point, the power source isn't exclusively fuel driven. Where I am, if I didn't use rooftop PV, it would still be 50% renewables and for a 1 cent/KWh, I could make it 100.

The pollution side cannot be disregarded either. I lived in Los Angeles in the smoggy 80s. It's markedly better now, but we're still fighting to meet the mandates in the Clean Air Acts and vehicles are the biggest contributor.

 

[SageBrush]

And while PTC heaters are dumb on EVs, you should see what the PTC heater they put into my PHEV does to the EV range...I guess they just expect you to use the ICE whenever it gets cold?

The PTC heaters that warm seats and steering wheels are brilliant. Heating the entire mass of the car with resistance heat is not a great idea.

 

[SageBrush]

Let's not turn up our nose on 3x, 4x, 5x improvements in the pursuit of pure.

If only

 

[mswlogo]

I liked your post, but this sentence is wrong. Your EV can travel 19 miles on 6 kWh of electricity, while the refining takes 6 kWh of heat energy.

---
I honestly find this discussion to be a blind alley. I think the only useful conclusion is that EVs can be clean if fueled with clean energy, and should be fueled with clean energy. So everybody should drive an EV and not an ICE, AND either build personal PV and/or vote and adocate for accelerated clean energy.

Clean energy and transport using clean energy is the only thing that matters.

I agree somewhat. But the OP started out defending his stance on EV. If he claims 6x more efficient he will be labeled FUD.

EV is more efficient and cleaner burning. But not by as much as we’d like.

I run Solar. But I cheat with a Fossil Battery ( the grid).

BTW here is sone food for thought.

 

[mswlogo]

Refinement of natural gas, and even coal, for power generation is simpler than oil refinement. But more to the point, the power source isn't exclusively fuel driven. Where I am, if I didn't use rooftop PV, it would still be 50% renewables and for a 1 cent/KWh, I could make it 100.

The pollution side cannot be disregarded either. I lived in Los Angeles in the smoggy 80s. It's markedly better now, but we're still fighting to meet the mandates in the Clean Air Acts and vehicles are the biggest contributor.

Maybe you live in some magic corner of the country. Which doesn’t matter much. It’s what the country and world is doing that matters.

This is 2019. Probably a little better now.

 

[kelpcar]

Maybe you live in some magic corner of the country. Which doesn’t matter much. It’s what the country and world is doing that matters.

This is 2019. Probably a little better now.

Nothing magical. It's the default option for San Francisco residents. The state as a whole is over 50% if you include nuclear, though the drought has severely reduced hydro power.

I can't control what the rest of the country does. Your profile is a bit unclear, but more than half of NH's production is nuclear, and 19% of MA is solar. Virtually no coal fueled generation is done in all of New England. So the EVs are winning there.

 

[mswlogo]

Nothing magical. It's the default option for San Francisco residents. The state as a whole is over 50% if you include nuclear, though the drought has severely reduced hydro power.

I can't control what the rest of the country does. Your profile is a bit unclear, but more than half of NH's production is nuclear, and 19% of MA is solar. Virtually no coal fueled generation is done in all of New England. So the EVs are winning there.

There is still coal in NH
But here is a more current chart in USA it is changing quickly.

 

[Sunvalleylaw]

Reading and learning. marked for further following.

 

[SageBrush]

I don't feel the descriptor matters.

Science, not feelings.

As for 'must use clean energy,' why?

Climate change.

 

[nate704]

climate change is not correct term anymore.
It should be "Dying Earth"

 

[RidgeRunner]

I'm in the process of getting a Y. Personally, I don't care about the environmental impact of things. I'm buying it for the technology. I'm a geek and love high tech toys

You will love it. You will be inventing reasons to drive it.

 

[kelpcar]

Science, not feelings.


Climate change.

If you're going to put out a trite response like that, at least address the entirety of my paragraph. The EV puts out less emissions, no matter how pessimistically you look at the energy mix.

 

[kelpcar]

There is still coal in NH

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

"As of June 2021, New Hampshire had the two remaining coal-fired power plants still operating in New England—Schiller at Portsmouth and Merrimack at Bow. Coal-fired plants no longer supply baseload power, but they play an important role in providing electricity on high demand days"

If you look at the bar chart, you can confirm that coal's share is rather miniscule.

The next big step forward is to find scalable storage for excess solar to eliminate coal and gas peaker plants.

 

[SageBrush]

The EV puts out less emissions, no matter how pessimistically you look at the energy mix.

Of course it does, as I posted earlier. But that is not a solution to climate change in and of itself, anymore than hybrids are. This is not pessimism, this is science.

 

[kelpcar]

Of course it does, as I posted earlier. But that is not a solution to climate change in and of itself, anymore than hybrids are. This is not pessimism, this is science.

which again translates to a kid throwing a tantrum - if it isn't 100% of the solution, it's no good at all! Science rarely goes from problem to 100% solution, And engineering is nearly always incremental progress.

If the only acceptable answer to you is not to own a car, this is the wrong place to be. Though maybe Elon's fantasy about an legion of self driving taxis by [2021?] is.

 

[nate704]

I don't care if we go full renewable energy source or not. I just do not want to pay higher energy bill.

 

[CyberGus]

Either people who spend a lot of time online having "discussions", trying to convince others about the car they (the others) need to buy for some reason, or the same thing, in person ( people trying to convince others about why they chose their car, or why the other person should choose an EV).

I dont get it, myself, cause I dont give a flying (you know what) what someone else is driving, nor do I really care if they dont approve of my car for some reason, as long as they are not trying to damage it or something.

There is no conversation I would ever be involved in, in which I would be "pulling out da maths" to try to convince someone of something. I would be saying "You do you, boo".

I'm no evangelist, but I find that people often start a conversation because they want to be informed, and I try to oblige.

Those that want to tell me all the ways in which I am wrong are free to do so at length, as I drive away.

 

[SageBrush]

Those that want to tell me all the ways in which I am wrong are free to do so at length, as I drive away.

Indeed. Although my experience is not so much trying to argue with me as to rationalize their own choices. Rather like the people here who drive on dirty fuel.