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This is how I feel too. But I just started doing this last month. Waiting to see what my B/W bill is to make sure the utility does not have a way to not credit me for solar produced and then stored. It should only be by max agreed energy for the day, not the time it was produced, but you know ...
The limits are based on a monthly estimated, not daily or hourly. What does your "PAIRED STORAGE: MAXIMUM EXPORT ESTIMATION" table look like? I

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Unless PG&E has wrong data for your site or you have a near zero house load, you should have a lot of margin. In my cast for July, the PG&E generation estimate was 1,512 kWh and I only export 1,116 kWh or 73.6%
 
The limits are based on a monthly estimated, not daily or hourly. What does your "PAIRED STORAGE: MAXIMUM EXPORT ESTIMATION" table look like? I
Mine is even more conservative. I have both an EV and two heat pumps so I use a lot of energy. And much of my solar is shielded by trees during the early/late periods and 1/3 of the panels are NNW focused.

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But I still don't trust anything until I see the B/W of their eyes. ;)
 
Do you mean EE actually is “incompatible” with VPP? Or just that it’s not a good strategy to run both?

I EE every day starting from 4p down to 5% reserve on 4x PW’s. That’s 51.3kWh, though usually it saves some for home usage through 12a (i override the pricing table and set my 9p-12a buy rates same as 4p-9p). I’m on EV2A.

So in usually 3.5-4hrs, by 730-8p, my PW is at reserve.

So, I think I’m getting nothing, or very little, for VPP if they do the baseline math properly. I did these three VPP’s anyway to just see, maybe they don’t do the baseline math as others indicated has happened. Or, at least I might get 11.8kWh for the 8p-9p block? That’s like a whopping $23 (better then zero!).

Anyways, my point is that the day in and day out EE export for NEM2 credits at peak EV2A rates over the course of 365 days is going to be much, much more financially beneficial then a few VPP’s, even like 10 VPP’s. So EE makes a lot of sense.
If I recall, you have 4 PWs, and your export continues till rather late. My single PW on EE dumps early during the peak period starting at 4pm, and at up to 5kW export, is down to my 20% reserve before 6. So, in my case, the more common 6-9 VPP event is a period during which I usually export none. With 10 events per year, up to $20 each, it can be up to around $200, paid by check from Tesla next year. Not game changing, but not nothing.

About the export limit, there are two different ones. Each month you are limited to NEM credit on only as many kWh of export as PG&E estimates your solar can produce. This is likely only exceeded if one does a bunch of grid charging. The limit more relevant to VPP is the kW limit, the rate at which you can export. I gather this is set to match your maximum solar export rate, and is set so that you don't overload the PG&E transformer, which you probably share with some neighbors. It is a calculation PG&E does before granting permission to turn on your solar. They limit your PW export to the same number, it appears. I think this is then set by Tesla in the PW commissioning process. Oh, there can a third limit on exports which changes the true-up if it exceeds imports, i.e. net generation, but this is not a factor for you, I think.

I think you have a solar max output lower than your 4 PWs can do, so the export rate limit is making your EE take longer. I don't know if it is possible to get PG&E and Tesla to increase your export rate limit, but if so it might let your routine EE export finish before 6, and so give you VPP credit on more of your export.

As I've said before, optimizing PW to maximize the economic benefit is strongly dependent on each situation. Solar size, PW size, shading, rate plan, NEM1 vs 2 or 3, home consumption, ambient temperature, dust on solar panels, etc, etc, etc. So general rules of thumb won't work for everyone.

Just a thought here: Assuming you can't get your export rate limit raised, you may want to consider adjusting your backup reserve setting during these few hot months when VPP may occur. Here's my thinking: Your NEM credits may wind up lower than your NBC's, in which case exporting more during peak times won't actually help you on your true-up. I'm not sure of this yet, but I suspect the trying to get your cumulate NBCs and your NEM equal to each other may be your optimum. EE increases both NBCs and NEM credits, the latter being larger, but all night long you accrue NBCs. So, decreasing the amount of EE, which is limited by your backup reserve, may be how to control the balance between NBCs and NEM credit. Again, once your NEM credits take the net charges and credits below the cumulative NBCs, the NBCs become the basis of your true-up, so increasing the NEM credits gives no benefit. But VPP credit is independent of NEM true-up, so adjsting your reserve down during actual events will get you more $2/kWh credits, while setting the reserver higher when no VPP event is active will decrease EE exports during the same period on "normal" days. Like I said, just a thought.

Again, hats off to you YRide for deep diving into this! This is still before you get your first B/W bill, not to mention a true-up. Most folks ignore all this till they get smacked with a year's worth of ignoring the fine print. For example, a friend, who is probably the smartest person I know, recently got an $1,800 true-up bill. I pointed out that if he reduced his backup reserve to 30% from 60% it would probably reduce the next bill by half, and with 2 PW's, 30% backup would cover his worst case outage just fine, at least during the summer months when PSPS shutdowns are most likely. (Your 5% backup at first surprised me, till I noticed that your 4 PWs made that the same as my 20% on my one.) Anyway, kudos to you.
 
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If I recall, you have 4 PWs, and your export continues till rather late. My single PW on EE dumps early during the peak period starting at 4pm, and at up to 5kW export, is down to my 20% reserve before 6. So, in my case, the more common 6-9 VPP event is a period during which I usually export none. With 10 events per year, up to $20 each, it can be up to around $200, paid by check from Tesla next year. Not game changing, but not nothing.

About the export limit, there are two different ones. Each month you are limited to NEM credit on only as many kWh of export as PG&E estimates your solar can produce. This is likely only exceeded if one does a bunch of grid charging. The limit more relevant to VPP is the kW limit, the rate at which you can export. I gather this is set to match your maximum solar export rate, and is set so that you don't overload the PG&E transformer, which you probably share with some neighbors. It is a calculation PG&E does before granting permission to turn on your solar. They limit your PW export to the same number, it appears. I think this is then set by Tesla in the PW commissioning process. Oh, there can a third limit on exports which changes the true-up if it exceeds imports, i.e. net generation, but this is not a factor for you, I think.

I think you have a solar max output lower than your 4 PWs can do, so the export rate limit is making your EE take longer. I don't know if it is possible to get PG&E and Tesla to increase your export rate limit, but if so it might let your routine EE export finish before 6, and so give you VPP credit on more of your export.

As I've said before, optimizing PW to maximize the economic benefit is strongly dependent on each situation. Solar size, PW size, shading, rate plan, NEM1 vs 2 or 3, home consumption, ambient temperature, dust on solar panels, etc, etc, etc. So general rules of thumb won't work for everyone.

Just a thought here: Assuming you can't get your export rate limit raised, you may want to consider adjusting your backup reserve setting during these few hot months when VPP may occur. Here's my thinking: Your NEM credits may wind up lower than your NBC's, in which case exporting more during peak times won't actually help you on your true-up. I'm not sure of this yet, but I suspect the trying to get your cumulate NBCs and your NEM equal to each other may be your optimum. EE increases both NBCs and NEM credits, the latter being larger, but all night long you accrue NBCs. So, decreasing the amount of EE, which is limited by your backup reserve, may be how to control the balance between NBCs and NEM credit. Again, once your NEM credits take the net charges and credits below the cumulative NBCs, the NBCs become the basis of your true-up, so increasing the NEM credits gives no benefit. But VPP credit is independent of NEM true-up, so adjsting your reserve down during actual events will get you more $2/kWh credits, while setting the reserver higher when no VPP event is active will decrease EE exports during the same period on "normal" days. Like I said, just a thought.

Again, hats off to you YRide for deep diving into this! This is still before you get your first B/W bill, not to mention a true-up. Most folks ignore all this till they get smacked with a year's worth of ignoring the fine print. For example, a friend, who is probably the smartest person I know, recently got an $1,800 true-up bill. I pointed out that if he reduced his backup reserve to 30% from 60% it would probably reduce the next bill by half, and with 2 PW's, 30% backup would cover his worst case outage just fine, at least during the summer months when PSPS shutdowns are most likely. (Your 5% backup at first surprised me, till I noticed that your 4 PWs made that the same as my 20% on my one.) Anyway, kudos to you.
If one just tries to get enough solar, then none of this detail matters. :)
 
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Replaced one of the two inverters. Don’t know yet, as it got cloudy right after they installed. I’ll update when it looks conclusive. I certainly hope this resolves it.

I actually had to show the Tesla tech how to connect the two Neurio’s back to GW2 via my home network. Bizarro world.
Now that we've had a couple sunny afternoons, can you see how well are your repaired inverter is working?
 
Now that we've had a couple sunny afternoons, can you see how well are your repaired inverter is working?
Actually, only today appears to be the first consistent day of sun. Inverter clipping issue in afternoons appears to be resolved.

I was expecting more then 46.5kWh though, a week ago with the faulty inverter I still produced 49.9kWh with the dropouts. Don’t think suns arc would have decrease by 3kWh in a week. I *think* both days were full sun…but not 100% sure. So will be watching.

Anyways, for now the graphs at least look better!


IMG_7410.png


IMG_7411.png
 
Actually, only today appears to be the first consistent day of sun. Inverter clipping issue in afternoons appears to be resolved.

I was expecting more then 46.5kWh though, a week ago with the faulty inverter I still produced 49.9kWh with the dropouts. Don’t think suns arc would have decrease by 3kWh in a week. I *think* both days were full sun…but not 100% sure. So will be watching.

Anyways, for now the graphs at least look better!


View attachment 971086

View attachment 971087
Cool! Looks like they fixed it.

Peak sun-up hours was in on the solstice (link), around June 21. Sept 23 is the equinox when the sun-up day length is decreasing the fastest. So a significant decline these days is to be expected.

The good news is that your jagged solar drop-outs have been fixed.
 
Was just randomly checking my app and my normal full rate PW export that starts at 4p abruptly shut off at 515p. Couldn’t tell why. Quit app then re opened…and voila…CA VPP event from 7p-9p…so PW is “preparing”.

It’s too bad it completely halts PW export though. I still have 73% SoC of 4x / 54kWh, which at 11.9kW site export max, is more then enough to cover the 2hr VPP. It could burn down more export right now at peak rates.
 
Was just randomly checking my app and my normal full rate PW export that starts at 4p abruptly shut off at 515p. Couldn’t tell why. Quit app then re opened…and voila…CA VPP event from 7p-9p…so PW is “preparing”.

It’s too bad it completely halts PW export though. I still have 73% SoC of 4x / 54kWh, which at 11.9kW site export max, is more then enough to cover the 2hr VPP. It could burn down more export right now at peak rates.
Strange, I'm in San Jose too but no VPP event showing for me. Not that it has worked correctly for me the past few events anyway...
 
Strange, I'm in San Jose too but no VPP event showing for me. Not that it has worked correctly for me the past few events anyway...
More strange…it’s gone for me too. And since there is no record, history or log of these things…but impossible to track.

Luckily, I did happen to take a screen shot.

IMG_7561.png


Looks like it came an went within 15min…based on when export stopped and then restarted.

IMG_7562.png
 
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More strange…it’s gone for me too. And since there is no record, history or log of these things…but impossible to track.

Luckily, I did happen to take a screen shot.

View attachment 974210

Looks like it came an went within 15min…based on when export stopped and then restarted.

View attachment 974211
Same thing happened to me, cost me some NBCs.
 
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Actually, only today appears to be the first consistent day of sun. Inverter clipping issue in afternoons appears to be resolved.

I was expecting more then 46.5kWh though, a week ago with the faulty inverter I still produced 49.9kWh with the dropouts. Don’t think suns arc would have decrease by 3kWh in a week. I *think* both days were full sun…but not 100% sure. So will be watching.

Anyways, for now the graphs at least look better!


View attachment 971086

View attachment 971087
It looks like your solar has settled down, but your home and car charging are spiking up and down like a punk hairdo. 46.5 kWh solar, cool. And we are near the equinox, so next summer your production will rock-on.
 
It looks like your solar has settled down, but your home and car charging are spiking up and down like a punk hairdo. 46.5 kWh solar, cool. And we are near the equinox, so next summer your production will rock-on.
Yep, Solar looking pretty good now. I would say most days are much smoother with the car / PW grid charger. Maybe 20% of days look spiky.

Yeah, let’s see next summer… I haven’t had the time but plane to do a PVWatts simulation and build a daily compare tool, so I can see how I delta off theoretical. When I spoke to Tesla, their “expected” production was a lot less. I still haven’t seen a PG&E B&W bill with my monthly export caps though.

on June 21 I had a peak of 8.2kW but since I didn’t get PTO until end June I can’t tell what I hit. However on July 8th I hit 66.2kWh production…so maybe I can hit 70kWh in a day with the right factors?

IMG_7577.png


IMG_7579.png
 
More strange…it’s gone for me too. And since there is no record, history or log of these things…but impossible to track.

Luckily, I did happen to take a screen shot.

View attachment 974210

Looks like it came an went within 15min…based on when export stopped and then restarted.

View attachment 974211
So these events at this point clearly have to be PGE, SCE stress and load testing the VPP system, right? Maybe they want to use it more and more and more quickly to reduce the overnight mostly GAS/HYDRO sourcing?
 
I’m still learning…what did you mean by this?
This article does a good job explaining non by-passable charges, but basically anything I pull from the grid will at minimum cost me 3/cents per kWh regardless how much extra kWh I may have sent back for the year. To try to keep these costs down I try to use most of my electricity during the day when the sun is out like charging my car, the new charge on solar feature is nice that it does all this automatically now. If you had a huge setup with tons of solar and batteries I guess you could leave it on Self Powered and not pay any at all.

 
Thanks for the NBC info. I’m just now starting to factor that in. Also realizing why charge on solar makes sense financially for some people

Is this the chart for compensation for pge net producers at true up?


What is the formula for figuring out how much you get back?

I recall seeing somewhere where someone calculated for over production compensation and they used 200% For one of the variables and I have no idea what that is

If one net over produces by 1000 kWh. Wouldn’t the compensation be 1000 x .07683 = $76.83. For a September 2023 true up? Then minus NBC and who knows whatever other charges?
 

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Thanks for the NBC info. I’m just now starting to factor that in. Also realizing why charge on solar makes sense financially for some people

Is this the chart for compensation for pge net producers at true up?


What is the formula for figuring out how much you get back?

I recall seeing somewhere where someone calculated for over production compensation and they used 200% For one of the variables and I have no idea what that is

If one net over produces by 1000 kWh. Wouldn’t the compensation be 1000 x .07683 = $76.83. For a September 2023 true up? Then minus NBC and who knows whatever other charges?
There are other threads that go in more detail, but simply you get nothing if after it nets out at your true up. You get the whole sale price which is a few cents per kWh so that is why it doesn’t really make sense to over produce too much. With NEM 1.0 there was no NBC, but I assume they introduced it into NEM 2.0 so that they could always get some revenue from solar users even if they over produced. My yearly electricity cost is about $300 when I include NBC and the monthly minimum, luckily VPP last year offset that. Of course I basically paid for it all up front when you include cost of the system, but hope to break even in another 5 years or so.