Tesla walks away from public funding for Superchargers because of payment system integration

[stopcrazypp]

I used to fuel fleet trucks at card-lock stations (use a card and pin#). These are unmanned 24/7 stations that have found a way to have dependable card readers, not as simple as Superchargers but pretty easy.

Third party charging networks have failed miserably in doing this however for some reason. There are many possible factors:
1) charging stations may have more demand per reader (in transaction count)
2) they use less robust equipment
3) they do less maintenance (even though your station is 24/7 unmanned, presumably there needs to be fuel trucked to there, and presumably they also maintain the readers, if only to put in paper for the receipts). Charge stations however seem to not be maintained, as they can have stalls down for weeks, if not a month or more.

 

[Big Dog]

Agreed, Electrek's recent integration of comments into the article is just lazy journalism, filling the page with unverified trash.

The whole "screen is a maintenance nightmare" comment doesn't seem to affect gas stations or any retail store. All of them have screens to prompt the buyer and provide information about the transaction and they all work most of the time.

I can't say I've wished for a screen when supercharging though. I can view everything I need to know on the app or the car.

Outdoor Card readers are expensive to maintain. Plenty of dust/dirt blowing around which clogs up the readers. (Think of all the dust storms in the CA Central Valley or in places like Arizona.) Card readers require frequent maintenance. Then, there's the fraud...

 

[ucmndd]

California is thinking ahead.

There is literally nothing forward thinking about regulations requiring built-in payment terminals to physically read some data on a hunk of plastic.

This is all about “equity” in the name of making sure even the most back-assward Luddite can do the 21st century equivalent of writing a paper check in the grocery store line if they want to.

We can debate whether or not that’s reasonable for the allocation of public funds, but it’s sure as sugar not “thinking ahead.”

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

There is literally nothing forward thinking about regulations requiring built-in payment terminals to physically read some data on a hunk of plastic.

This is all about “equity” in the name of making sure even the most back-assward Luddite can do the 21st century equivalent of writing a paper check in the grocery store line if they want to.

We can debate whether or not that’s reasonable for the allocation of public funds, but it’s sure as sugar not “thinking ahead.”

It's thinking ahead to everybody having an EV. It's not about equity, it's about not building in an unnecessary dependency .

I use NFC with my phone regularly in winter at a ChargePoint EVSE. It's been quick and reliable so far. So as an _option_, that's great.

But, smartphone dependency is unacceptable. "Sorry I can't come visit you, my cellphone has died." Cellphones fail. Coverage isn't universal. The OSes fail. The apps fail.

Plug & Charge isn't mandated, so you also can't depend on it.

That leaves the most universal electronic payment system, which is credit/debit cards. It's just sad that charger manufacturers have failed miserably at something gas pump manufacturers have been doing reliably for years.

 

[mongo]

That leaves the most universal electronic payment system, which is credit/debit cards. It's just sad that charger manufacturers have failed miserably at something gas pump manufacturers have been doing reliably for years.

It seems unfair to compare a card reader at a regularly monitored and staffed gas station (under canopies) with one at a standalone charging site.

And even gas stations are not ideal, they fail "pay inside" or get card skimmers.

Given the vandalism chargers get now, I would hesitate to base my required uptime on a slot based card reader.

 

[MP3Mike]

Plug & Charge isn't mandated, so you also can't depend on it.

NEVI funded chargers are required to support Plug&Charge by January 1st, 2024, or at least I am pretty sure that is what the requirements say. (Of course, most vehicles don't support it.)

 

[mongo]

NEVI funded chargers are required to support Plug&Charge by January 1st, 2024, or at least I am pretty sure that is what the requirements say. (Of course, most vehicles don't support it.)

Humm, sounds like a market for a CCS P&C adapter...

 

[Webeevdrivers]

I used to fuel fleet trucks at card-lock stations (use a card and pin#). These are unmanned 24/7 stations that have found a way to have dependable card readers, not as simple as Superchargers but pretty easy.

We use pre-paid RFID cards on FLO and BC hydro stations. 100 percent serviceability for us. But they also don’t have screens.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

We use pre-paid RFID cards on FLO and BC hydro stations. 100 percent serviceability for us. But they also don’t have screens.

We used an RFID tag with ON Power's network when driving a Model 3 around Iceland a couple years ago. Many of the chargers didn't have screens but we were always able to charge successfully. The RFID tags were linked to the Model 3 owner's account and the owner was charged automatically.

I don't see the need for screens and credit card readers as there are other ways that have been used for years that work fine and don't require the extra maintenance. When we've tried using Electrify America, we've probably had an 80% failure rate with their credit card readers. Using ON Power, Volta, ChargePoint and other networks with an app or RFID, we've never had problems charging.

 

[SVMike]

While I agree in part, the issue is that everything is APP based now. Look at paid street parking, even paid parking lot parking. Tons of places now force you to log into an app in order to pay for your parking, with no other option. Look at SAM's gas stations...all you need is the app with CC info, and scan a QR code on the pump...other than the weights and measures requirements for showing exactly how much gas was dispensed, there isn't a need for a screen.

Do you really want a world where you go to a hotel and you can't stay there unless you install their app to pay? Or you go to a restaurant and you install their app or its no soup for you!? Apps are great and a real convenience for things you do often. But a one-time charge out in a place you may never go again it is just a pain to install when you go just tap your phone or tap/swipe a credit card in 5 seconds.
To get universal EV usage, refueling has to be easy as at a gas station...in the worst case.
Tesla Supercharger for Tesla owners is already better than any gas station, but we shouldn't make it more difficult for non-Tesla drivers, IMO

 

[derotam]

Do you really want a world where you go to a hotel and you can't stay there unless you install their app to pay? Or you go to a restaurant and you install their app or its no soup for you!? Apps are great and a real convenience for things you do often. But a one-time charge out in a place you may never go again it is just a pain to install when you go just tap your phone or tap/swipe a credit card in 5 seconds.
To get universal EV usage, refueling has to be easy as at a gas station...in the worst case.
Tesla Supercharger for Tesla owners is already better than any gas station, but we shouldn't make it more difficult for non-Tesla drivers, IMO

I absolutely agree, I DESPISE having to install an app just do do something, especially if it is just a one time thing or very rare situation. Not only that, being forced to use an app can force you to take data privacy risks that you may not want to do, because the app may be pulling data that you don't want it to pull.

You do contradict yourself a bit however when you say what you say and then talk about how great Tesla Superchargers are for Tesla owners that, ohh yeah HAVE to install an app to supercharge.

I agree that paying for refueling needs to be easy but it turns into a technology and maintenance conversation. In my own personal opinion, taking a couple considerations into account, is that pay options(at a minimum) should include, APP, NFC(tap) CC, Phone NFC CC. Swipe card is a maintenance/weather/skimmer issue, cash is a maintenance/weather/security issue. Even the NFC options have security risks but they can be easily mitigated though at the expense of response time via encryption/more robust encryption.

At some point, the caveman isn't going to be able to conduct much business. Technology changes and society will continue to move forward in technology whether certain groups want it to or not.

 

[mongo]

You do contradict yourself a bit however when you say what you say and then talk about how great Tesla Superchargers are for Tesla owners that, ohh yeah HAVE to install an app to supercharge.

Can't you enter Supercharging payment info via the website?

 

[derotam]

Can't you enter Supercharging payment info via the website?

Yeah, that whole statement wasn't written well when I look back at it...I think I meant to reference non-tesla charging at a supercharger requires the Tesla APP(as per the Tesla website FAQ).

In anycase, the whole charging infrastructure(including payment ability) is still in the wild wild west period. The problem is that everyone wants to do it their own way and the experience isn't universal between different companies' charging infrastructure, like it is with gas stations. It will get better...it will get worse first though I think.(at least for manufacturers).

 

[SVMike]

You do contradict yourself a bit however when you say what you say and then talk about how great Tesla Superchargers are for Tesla owners that, ohh yeah HAVE to install an app to supercharge.

Not really as others have said. But Tesla owners will likely want to install the app to have all the other app features for their car. But that is a choice they make. A non-Tesla driver on a road trip that normally uses EA chargers, for example, shouldn't need to install the Tesla app for just one quick charge.

 

[Big Dog]

Not really as others have said. But Tesla owners will likely want to install the app to have all the other app features for their car. But that is a choice they make. A non-Tesla driver on a road trip that normally uses EA chargers, for example, shouldn't need to install the Tesla app for just one quick charge.

But what you are suggesting is that Tesla has to install card readers for the (small %?) of non-Tesla drivers, i.e., Tesla Corp -- essentially Tesla customers -- need to pay more to cover the cost & maintenance of card readers that they do not need and will never use. Alternatively, if Tesla needs to recover the cost of the card readers from non-TEsla users, the add-on cost to the electricity would be rapacious.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

It seems unfair to compare a card reader at a regularly monitored and staffed gas station (under canopies) with one at a standalone charging site.

And even gas stations are not ideal, they fail "pay inside" or get card skimmers.

Given the vandalism chargers get now, I would hesitate to base my required uptime on a slot based card reader.

Gas station payment can fail, but it's unusual in my experience and doesn't last.

Do the rules require a slot reader? With newly-issued cards allowing contactless payment, there shouldn't have to be a slot now and there's no longer the same exposure. I know that the Petro Canada chargers only have contactless credit cards and I think some of the Electrify America stations are contactless.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Yeah, that whole statement wasn't written well when I look back at it...I think I meant to reference non-tesla charging at a supercharger requires the Tesla APP(as per the Tesla website FAQ).

In anycase, the whole charging infrastructure(including payment ability) is still in the wild wild west period. The problem is that everyone wants to do it their own way and the experience isn't universal between different companies' charging infrastructure, like it is with gas stations. It will get better...it will get worse first though I think.(at least for manufacturers).

The variation is somewhat annoying.

Some you activate and then plug in.
Some you plug in and then activate.
An advantage for activate first is that the plug can be locked in the unit and only released when you scan. But I've only seen that on EVSEs.
If you want Plug & Charge you can't do that, so it's not desirable on DCFC anyway.

It also varies on how you _stop_ the charging.
I've used ChargePoint DCFCs here where you can rescan your card/phone, or stop it on the app.
I recently used one where it had a Stop on the touchscreen, but that didn't seem to do anything but rescanning my phone did.
That helps avoid, er, jokers hitting Stop and interrupting you.

I used a EVGo where it took me a minute to stop the charging because you had to tap the screen before it showed the Stop Charging button.
I couldn't stop it in the app.

I've also used the 50kW chargers in New Brunswick and on Prince Edward Island where it's nice and simple, with clear instructions and big Start and Stop charging buttons.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment Standards Regulation Background and FAQs | California Air Resources Board

Everyone should be able to use electric vehicle charging stations in a secure and reliable way. In 2013, the Legislature directed CARB to implement this principle through a regulation on electric vehicle charging stations, standardizing aspects of their operation and payment methods they...

ww2.arb.ca.gov

OK, so I see that there is a problem there. They currently require chip readers. That does suck.

Key quote:

Furthermore, while contactless may become more ubiquitous in 2030, the regulation is intended to provide for widespread access starting in 2022 and contactless forms of payment are not as ubiquitous as the chip. CARB recognizes that credit card technologies will evolve over time and has therefore committed to monitor the industry.

I'd bet contactless will be ubiquitous before then.
When I switched one of our credit cards to contactless for ease of use when traveling in other countries, there was no fee. I think they're happy to offer a free switchover to encourage use.
(The other expired a bit later and they sent me a new one with contactless.)
New business payment systems all seem to have contactless now, plus cellphone NFC payment, plus sometimes support for payment apps like Venmo or CashApp.
To hold onto their business, I think most card issuers will be very happy to allow an early switch to contactless cards.

I think that Tesla wants to use app only as that would be cheaper for them. _Maybe_ they'd consider contactless as at least that allows the hardware to all be internal and should be less of a maintenance and security problem.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment Standards Regulation Background and FAQs | California Air Resources Board

Everyone should be able to use electric vehicle charging stations in a secure and reliable way. In 2013, the Legislature directed CARB to implement this principle through a regulation on electric vehicle charging stations, standardizing aspects of their operation and payment methods they...

ww2.arb.ca.gov

OK, so I see that there is a problem there. They currently require chip readers. That does suck.

Key quote:



I'd bet contactless will be ubiquitous before then.
When I switched one of our credit cards to contactless for ease of use when traveling in other countries, there was no fee. I think they're happy to offer a free switchover to encourage use.
(The other expired a bit later and they sent me a new one with contactless.)
New business payment systems all seem to have contactless now, plus cellphone NFC payment, plus sometimes support for payment apps like Venmo or CashApp.
To hold onto their business, I think most card issuers will be very happy to allow an early switch to contactless cards.

I think that Tesla wants to use app only as that would be cheaper for them. _Maybe_ they'd consider contactless as at least that allows the hardware to all be internal and should be less of a maintenance and security problem.

I think Tesla wants to primarily avoid a kiosk system (and perhaps another third party payment processor), it's not necessarily contactless vs a chip reader.

 

[SVMike]

But what you are suggesting is that Tesla has to install card readers for the (small %?) of non-Tesla drivers, i.e., Tesla Corp -- essentially Tesla customers -- need to pay more to cover the cost & maintenance of card readers that they do not need and will never use. Alternatively, if Tesla needs to recover the cost of the card readers from non-TEsla users, the add-on cost to the electricity would be rapacious.

I'm suggesting that if Tesla takes the government incentives that it is OK for those chargers to be required to make them universally available to all CCS EVs and all drivers with or without smart phones. If Tesla thinks that the number of non-Tesla drivers is too small to bother with then they don't need to take the incentives either with or without any type of card reader. Tesla can certainly charge extra for non-Tesla cars -- I'm certainly in favor of this since Tesla owners have paid for the Supercharger network to date. And they can even charge a higher price for credit card scans (or more realistically give a "discount" for installing the app or paying a monthly fee of some kind).