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TeslaFi - Battery Degradation Reports (upload your data)

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That's interesting because TM-Spy and SMT both provide rated miles for model S, so I'm surprised they don't provide it for the model 3. It's provided by the API for all cars, and it's the same number as OBD gives, only API gives it with 2 decimals.
Like I said, I have no access to the API, but the API will basically provide the same calculation the car does internally.

I don't think you can get any rated range "hard-coded" value from the OBD II too, because this is done on the MCU part.
I think the BMS gives the kWh to the MCU and this is then translated into the rated range display.

This from the internal document.
"Hard-coded into the pack" is more likely "hard-coded to the firmware, based on a certain pack". Not really hard coded in a ROM chip on the pack or something, because we know it changes with updates...
The energy is then divided by a fixed Watt-hour per mile (whpm) value that is hard-coded into the pack based on the rated range setting and vehicle configuration. This is the average efficiency found during the EPA drive cycle testing (or EU/APAC equivalent standard). The final number will appear in units of distance and this is what is displayed on the MCU.
 
Like I said, I have no access to the API, but the API will basically provide the same calculation the car does internally.

I don't think you can get any rated range "hard-coded" value from the OBD II too, because this is done on the MCU part.
I think the BMS gives the kWh to the MCU and this is then translated into the rated range display.

This from the internal document.
"Hard-coded into the pack" is more likely "hard-coded to the firmware, based on a certain pack". Not really hard coded in a ROM chip on the pack or something, because we know it changes with updates...

Sounds like it's best to use the API to get the constant then. It has the precision...

Using the data from the Stats app (swap between kWh added and miles added), and use only values where I have added more than 100 rated miles to get 4 significant figures for each value (rated miles are rounded to 0.5 on charging events apparently - I'm not sure whether this is an API limitation or a Stats issue - not sure why they would round it to the nearest 0.5 miles in any case..), the number is always extremely close to 245Wh/rmi.

In order to get values in km in the same manner, I think I'd have to complete a charging session in km as Stats appears to be just converting the miles numbers to km for historical data. Anyway 245Wh/rmi would be 152.2Wh/km, but it may not be the same I suppose. Certainly when I do the calculations from the Energy Consumption screen, I get closest to 152Wh/km (generally seems to be slightly lower than that value but I'd have to take more datapoints). 151Wh/km is possible, but 153Wh/km seems not possible based on the values I see.

I can say the rated line is at 250Wh/rmi, and it is at 156Wh/km (this is where solid and dotted overlap and dotted is no longer visible). So those are definitely not consistent (though it is possible they are, if the rounding errors go just the right way and the plotting is done with round numbers only...250.4mi is 155.5km...)!

And 250.4/245 = 155.5/152.2 So at least that would be consistent. Who knows. Doesn't really matter.
 
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Sounds like it's best to use the API to get the constant then. It has the precision...

Using the data from the Stats app (swap between kWh added and miles added), and use only values where I have added more than 100 rated miles to get 4 significant figures for each value (rated miles are rounded to 0.5 on charging events apparently - I'm not sure whether this is an API limitation or a Stats issue - not sure why they would round it to the nearest 0.5 miles in any case..), the number is always extremely close to 245Wh/rmi.

That is the method I used before I had TM-Spy to validate my constant. The rounding to 0.5 is from the API reading, and I agree, it seems strange they do it that way. And of course, that will cause some +/- variation around your constant of 245 for any individual measurement. But if you average enough of those readings, you should get something like 245.0 average, which validates the exact value.
 
I think 245 /153 is a good middle ground for the calculation. But I would still use km as it is more accurate.

As for added kWh and added miles you see on the screen while charging - they are just using that same constant - it is not a real reading from the battery. I have confirmed this with Scan My Tesla as the kWh added on screen don't match the real added kWh. But they do match the added rated miles.

I think the reason for that is that when you charge the car they don't have the actual capacity from start to finish and they just estimate based on the start km estimate and kW speed.
 
added kWh and added miles you see on the screen while charging

To be clear, I was using Stats, which provides extra API digits on the kWh added (and rounds to the nearest half mile on the miles added) and therefore improves the precision.

it is not a real reading from the battery. I have confirmed this with Scan My Tesla as the kWh added on screen don't match the real added kWh. But they do match the added rated miles.

Yes, this is expected of course, and the API does not have access to the kWh value from what I understand so it's definitely not a reading from that. We know that the BMS Wh/rmi are 4.5% less than the charging constant due to the buffer. So it would be about 234Wh (145.4Wh per km) per mile added.

I think the reason for that is that when you charge the car they don't have the actual capacity from start to finish and they just estimate

Maybe that uncertainty is the motivating factor, but there's not really any estimation going on other than the BMS. It's really just a design choice on their part from what I can tell. That rated miles added (however they get that from the API) is just multiplied by 245Wh/rmi and displayed on the charging screen.
 
SR+ 5338 miles. Not happy . I made an appointment with tesla service. They contacted me and told me that everything is fine i should calibrate it. Discharge the battery to between 10-20% wait 4-5 hours and then charge it up to 100% and wait 4-5 hours. I did it twice and it didnt help
tesla.JPG
 
SR+ 5338 miles. Not happy . I made an appointment with tesla service. They contacted me and told me that everything is fine i should calibrate it. Discharge the battery to between 10-20% wait 4-5 hours and then charge it up to 100% and wait 4-5 hours. I did it twice and it didnt helpView attachment 502368
I was losing estimated range while charging at 70%. When I charged to 90%, I got my range back. YMMV.
 
SR+ 5338 miles. Not happy . I made an appointment with tesla service. They contacted me and told me that everything is fine i should calibrate it. Discharge the battery to between 10-20% wait 4-5 hours and then charge it up to 100% and wait 4-5 hours. I did it twice and it didnt helpView attachment 502368

When you buy an electric car, expect loss of capacity! It is not really that big a deal and slows down after the first year or so. Expect 10% with a Tesla, maybe 15%.

My Chevy Spark EV has a little over 20% loss of capacity after 3 years and it only started with an 85 mile range or so! It’s no big deal - still useful for our purpose, since we bought it expecting that degradation and made sure the use case would be ok with that loss of capacity. Got 5 more years on the warranty and in the unlikely event it loses another 10-15% we will qualify for warranty replacement (35% degradation is the warranty limit for that car).
 
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I understand but I had 239 miles range only for 1 month.

You may be unlucky enough to have got a battery that is on the worse end of things. On the other hand if it continues at this pace (unlikely) you will be in line for a warranty replacement. Keep in mind for future reference that 54.5kWh is “full”, and multiply your rated miles by 219Wh/rmi to get your current capacity. So you are around 50kWh, so you have about 8.3% loss of capacity so far (not 5%). 174 rated miles (38.1kWh) - not 168 rated miles - is the warranty threshold on an available energy basis as far as we know. You are in Miami so this is not a temperature issue.
 
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The SR+ is around 52-52.5kWh full when brand new, with the buffer.

Do you have a SMT source for this? The Tesla dyno test showed 54.5kWh (that is my source). Though maybe they reduced range voluntarily because that just happened to be a “really big” battery for the test article. You’d expect 31/46*79kWh = 53.2kWh of course (ratio of number of cells). But they may not do the same depth of discharge with different pack sizes I suppose.
 
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2019 M3P-, Took delivery in early august.

Lifetime wh/mi: ~280
Charging habits: Charge to 70 in summer, 75-80 in winter. plugged in every night inside a garage, Garage is at 80F in summer, ~50F in winter. Charge to 90% when visiting family and trickle charging on 110V, but it takes awhile.

a few bigger road trips, approx 10-20 supercharges.

Never charged to 100%, only charged to 97% once to try to enable balancing.



upload_2020-1-23_12-20-57.png
 
2019 M3P-, Took delivery in early august.

Lifetime wh/mi: ~280
Charging habits: Charge to 70 in summer, 75-80 in winter. plugged in every night inside a garage, Garage is at 80F in summer, ~50F in winter. Charge to 90% when visiting family and trickle charging on 110V, but it takes awhile.

a few bigger road trips, approx 10-20 supercharges.

Never charged to 100%, only charged to 97% once to try to enable balancing.



View attachment 503519
If you plug in every night and the battery stays in a narrow range, I think the range estimate gets confused. Someone else complained about this 2 years ago and Elon Musk responded on twitter and I think said something along the lines of "bring it down to ~15% and then back up to 90% and you should recover the lost range". I think it is more of a computer range estimate error than anything wrong with your battery.
 
2019 M3P-, Took delivery in early august.

Lifetime wh/mi: ~280
Charging habits: Charge to 70 in summer, 75-80 in winter. plugged in every night inside a garage, Garage is at 80F in summer, ~50F in winter. Charge to 90% when visiting family and trickle charging on 110V, but it takes awhile.

a few bigger road trips, approx 10-20 supercharges.

Never charged to 100%, only charged to 97% once to try to enable balancing.



View attachment 503519

Looks great. About 3-4% degradation over 14k miles.
 
2019 M3P-, Took delivery in early august.

Lifetime wh/mi: ~280
Charging habits: Charge to 70 in summer, 75-80 in winter. plugged in every night inside a garage, Garage is at 80F in summer, ~50F in winter. Charge to 90% when visiting family and trickle charging on 110V, but it takes awhile.

a few bigger road trips, approx 10-20 supercharges.

Never charged to 100%, only charged to 97% once to try to enable balancing.



View attachment 503519

Looks extremely similar to mine - started dropping at about 6k miles, and now sits at 300rmi. I also had the plateau at around 304rmi! You can see the evidence of my theory here. As we know, batteries degrade fastest when they are new. But there is no evidence of this in this plot - it is totally flat for the first 5000 miles! You can see when winter and summer are in your plot - there is more error on TeslaFi's estimates when the SoC is set lower (due to SoC lack of precision). So more fuzz in the summer time. Right now it is nice and tight.

The EPA data (which shows the pack should have about 78-79kWh at 1000 miles) and the constant (which with 310 rated miles would project to 76kWh) suggests that actually Tesla starts with "turgid" rated miles which contain more energy (though this is not indicated on the charging screen, it is only visible through the CAN bus or careful observation of the trip meter, or by making extremely careful observation of wall energy added during charging sessions when the vehicle is new relative to miles added, and comparing to charging sessions when degradation becomes visible), and then they slim down (but do not reduce in number), and then finally they start to disappear when your capacity drops below 76kWh (where 245Wh/rmi becomes the correct endpoint value).

For you, this endpoint (where miles actually started disappearing, even though you already had at least 2% degradation) happened at around 5000 miles.

Another way to look at this: You actually started at 318-322 rated miles (the reason it's so high is because Tesla made the constant too low...more on that below...), but it was "hidden" by the "inflated" rated miles (note: it is NOT a cap where your miles stay pinned at 310 miles when you start driving - each mile is inflated so they will immediately begin ticking off, they just tick off more slowly when the car is new!).

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. It fits all the data/observations we have:

1) We know batteries degrade fastest when new but this is not apparent in your plot. Something is amiss. (This is what happens to almost all the old 2018/2019 LR vehicles.)
2) From Bjorn videos, we know that initially on new vehicles, the trip meter shows more energy per rated mile than later in a car's life.
3) The CAN bus data shows over 78kWh of capacity on new vehicles. This doesn't fit with what we know about the 310rmi*245Wh/rmi (76kWh), so implies that that "245Wh/rmi" must not be the case *initially* at least. (It's worth noting that the "correct" value of this constant in 2018/2019 should have been 255Wh/rmi (so that 255Wh/rmi*310rmi = 79kWh).
4) We know rated miles start ticking down immediately as you drive even when starting at 100%, so we know it's not just energy "above" 310 - if it were, it would stay pinned at 310 for quite some time when the car is new.


Anyway, what this means is that you're at about 6% degradation (299/318) at this point (not 3-4%). And that's what the CAN bus would tell you (it would say you have ~73kWh and it would also have told you you started at ~78-79kWh).

Based on what we're seeing on the 2020 Peformance, it looks like Tesla may have modified this strategy and now will just show nearly all your miles to start with (in addition to getting efficiency improvements on the AWD). Now the constant will be 247Wh/rmi, but that's actually the correct value. It doesn't look like they'll be doing quite as much of this "deflation" of the rated miles over time. (I say this because 264Wh/rmi*294rmi is 77.6kWh and the EPA test for 20" gave 79kWh, so only 1.4kWh hidden right now - exact amount hidden would depend on exactly where your pack starts.)

The confirmation of this theory will be the TeslaFi results from brand new Performance 2020 vehicles over time - will they start showing degradation a bit sooner?

I think they may adjust the constant down to 260Wh/rmi later so that 299 ends up the max. So that means less inflation (260Wh/rmi vs. the correct 264Wh/rmi, compared to 245Wh/rmi vs. the correct 255Wh/rmi before). It may be that they have better control over initial pack capacity now, so they can tighten things up a bit, and still make everyone "happy" to start with the "full" number of miles. (I think this may be a motivating factor for this entire treatment - they want everyone to start out with the same number of rated miles, even if their initial pack energy may vary by up to ~2kWh - that variable capacity (presumably some tolerance is allowed by the EPA) is hidden at the time of sale.)

This may also largely explain why people see such different "plateaus" in their miles after a year. If the initial starting point differs by 2-3kWh, that would mean that once that start point is "revealed," we should expect to see 8-12 miles difference in the rated miles people get at 100% after basically equal degradation has occurred. For example, someone starting with 76kWh would start at 310, and someone with 79kWh would also start at 310. After 6% degradation, they'd be at 71.5kWh and 74.3kWh, or 292rmi and 303rmi. Same % degradation, but that startpoint difference is now evident.
 
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@AlanSubie4Life Thank you for this detailed analysis. I've been lurking your comments in this forum and after looking at a bunch of data, I think you have a very solid hypothesis with good data to support it. I posted primarily to add my info to the discussion, I am not concerned about my degradation thus far.

I wonder if we can do some similar analysis of the early model S packs to determine the actual % degradation over time, possibly figuring out how the model 3 packs will age over time given the similar NCA cell type and likely similar degradation behavior. If we then can offset down the google docs file that has a bunch of degradation data, we might be able to present a good range of expected degradation over time given those historic datasets and some implied variation of a few kWh in initial pack capacity.


@cstork - I'm not really concerned about the degradation at this point, but thanks for the pointers. I do let the pack occasionally go below 20% SOC, and then charge up to 80+. I have not noticed any impact on this chart after doing this.
 
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I wonder if we can do some similar analysis of the early model S packs to determine the actual % degradation over time

I have heard (no idea if it is true or not) that the Model S strategy when new was to simply remain "pinned" at the max rated range for a while if you charged to 100%, and the capacity exceeded the energy content Tesla had deemed to be 100%. I have never had a Model S so no idea what actually happens. So that would be a slightly different strategy to hide small vehicle-to-vehicle initial capacity differences. However, if true, and if that battery degradation spreadsheet for Model S floating around is based on rated range at 100%, then, it would somewhat understate degradation numbers for Model S, just like a similar analysis based on rated miles for Model 3 would understate degradation.

Again, I know nothing about the actual behavior of Model S.

I'm not concerned about degradation either. I figure I'll get 15% at some point (270 rated miles at 100%). Just the way things go.
 
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