Teslas With Rebuilt Title - Supercharging Removal

[BritneySpears]

Then feel free to use the state-owned chargers.

If you want to use the Tesla owned ones then Tesla is very much IN the conversation.

Some reading of this thread would have avoided me to inform you but here it goes. My argument is against the OTA switch off of 3rd party fast dc charging which has nothing to do with Tesla supercharging.

Even if I'm locked out of Tesla supercharging it's illegal, imo, that Tesla changed something in my car to disable that. The disabling should be on their end, on the charger, and or on my account. No car manufacturer should have the right, or does have the right, to modify an owner's car without their permission.

 

[Knightshade]

Some reading of this thread would have avoided me to inform you but here it goes. My argument is against the OTA switch off of 3rd party fast dc charging which has nothing to do with Tesla supercharging.

On the contrary, the only thing you've actually claimed was they turned off Tesla supercharging.

Which has...a lot...to do with Tesla supercharging.

You also mention you are GOING to get a chademo adapter to find out if you can DC charge or not.

So your claim your argument is about something you already admitted you haven't even checked doesn't work yet is specious at best.

Here's your post where you admit you don't even have the adapter to find out yet-

I'm getting the chademo. Are you still accepting the OTA software updates? I'm guessing the SC lockout was a separate OTA switch and the software updates wouldn't change some cars differently than others? Ugh... why do I have to be worried about tesla tampering with MY car?

Even if I'm locked out of Tesla supercharging it's illegal, imo,

So...your argument isn't about superchargers... but it's really totally about superchargers.


Anyway-you're factually wrong.

You don't own the supercharger network- Tesla does.

They're free to deny access to anybody they wish.

They even spell out their salvage vehicle policy- including disabling supercharger access- on their website

Privacy & Legal | Tesla

They can lock anybody out they want for that Tesla changed something in my car to disable that. The disabling should be on their end, on the charger, and or on my account. No car manufacturer should have the right, or does have the right, to modify an owner's car without their permission.

You seem confused about who owns licensed software. (Hint: it's not you)

Even GM, hardly a software giant, made this point 5 years ago to the US Copyright office-saying car owners "mistakenly conflate ownership of a vehicle with ownership of the underlying computer software in the vehicle"

 

[Jonkoehn]

On the contrary, the only thing you've actually claimed was they turned off Tesla supercharging.

Which has...a lot...to do with Tesla supercharging.

You also mention you are GOING to get a chademo adapter to find out if you can DC charge or not.

So your claim your argument is about something you already admitted you haven't even checked doesn't work yet is specious at best.

Here's your post where you admit you don't even have the adapter to find out yet-








So...your argument isn't about superchargers... but it's really totally about superchargers.


Anyway-you're factually wrong.

You don't own the supercharger network- Tesla does.

They're free to deny access to anybody they wish.

They even

Both of you have good points. It just sucks there isn't a way for Tesla to re-enable it at my cost. To recertify it. Also it would have been awesome to just limit the charge rate at the SC to a safe level, so that I could still use the network, and my car could navigate to the large charging network. It sucks to be stranded right next to a state of the art vehicle charging station that bares the same name of my vehicle

 

[Jonkoehn]

they could have shut it off in a way that didn't put my family in danger. This aspect is unacceptable. We have been SC for a year, it's proven to be safe. If they would have reduced our charging speed to 50kw or 20kw. My wife wouldn't have been left in the dark and cold. This is a immoral action. And is outrageous. And very disappointing.

 

[Jonkoehn]

Let me buy a new battery pack, or something. Give me some option. The car won't accept high voltage DC. It's not the SC. So I highly doubt it will work on thrid party DC chargers. I would love to be wrong.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Owners with branded titles might wish to get in contact with Rich Rebuilds. He has gone down this path many times. Has well thought out theories and solutions and legal opinions.

 

[BritneySpears]

On the contrary, the only thing you've actually claimed was they turned off Tesla supercharging.

Which has...a lot...to do with Tesla supercharging.

You also mention you are GOING to get a chademo adapter to find out if you can DC charge or not.

So your claim your argument is about something you already admitted you haven't even checked doesn't work yet is specious at best.

Here's your post where you admit you don't even have the adapter to find out yet-


So...your argument isn't about superchargers... but it's really totally about superchargers.


Anyway-you're factually wrong.

You don't own the supercharger network- Tesla does.

They're free to deny access to anybody they wish.

They even spell out their salvage vehicle policy- including disabling supercharger access- on their website

Privacy & Legal | Tesla



You seem confused about who owns licensed software. (Hint: it's not you)

Even GM, hardly a software giant, made this point 5 years ago to the US Copyright office-saying car owners "mistakenly conflate ownership of a vehicle with ownership of the underlying computer software in the vehicle"

Please don't take my words out of context. I wrote that it's illegal, imo, for any manuf to OTA remove, disable, or affect features within the owner's vehicle without their permission. I don't care that supercharging was disabled because it's a tesla service and they can chose not to patronize me but I do care they did it by doing something to my car instead of something within their organization. It's a very simple concept. It's not clear to me how this isn't abhorrent to everyone.

What's next? Reducing my power because stomping on the pedal can cause high current flow thru the battery pack and they want to do that for my safety?

Regarding the chademo, you are correct that I haven't tested it yet but the Tesla document SC-15-00-006 R3 that I posted very explicitly states 3rd party is disabled. I even spoke to Tesla cust service on the phone and they said it's disabled. So even if it's not disabled today it could be disabled tomorrow. I go back to my original point about OTA changes by someone else (tesla) changing features on my car, that only I own. I don't own and don't want to own the software in my car. But tesla owning the software in my car does not give tesla the right to arbitrarily, without informing me, without my permission, change software.

 

[Knightshade]

Please don't take my words out of context

I didn't.

I quoted you telling us you were cut off from supercharging but didn't yet know if you were cut off from DC charging.

That was the exact context of the discussion.

. I wrote that it's illegal, imo, for any manuf to OTA remove, disable, or affect features within the owner's vehicle without their permission.

Yes- but have yet to cite any actual case law supporting your claim.

Insisting something is illegal does not make it so.

Software companies have been doing this for a good while now, and AFAIK none of them have been arrested for it.

I don't care that supercharging was disabled because it's a tesla service and they can chose not to patronize me but I do care they did it by doing something to my car instead of something within their organization. It's a very simple concept. It's not clear to me how this isn't abhorrent to everyone.

You can feel it's morally wrong, but that's not the same as legally wrong.

Apple pushes silent updates that change functionality all the time-
Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server – TechCrunch

Amazon hilariously removed 1984 from ereaders without permission of the device owners (and have removed other books in the past)
Amazon Secretly Removes "1984" From the Kindle


Microsoft forces Win10 updates all the time.... they even used to force entire OS upgrades (1803 to 1809 and so on) though they backed off on that a bit after complaints.
Windows 10 users are grumpy over forced updates and unwanted apps


None of them, AFAIK, have found to be violating any laws in pushing such SW changes to devices owned by other people but running the licensed SW the company ultimately owns.

 

[Knightshade]

Both of you have good points. It just sucks there isn't a way for Tesla to re-enable it at my cost. To recertify it.

There used to be one.

You paid for a recert (which was expensive and time consuming but available), and SC was then allowed.

But as the fleet scales up, and does so faster than Tesla can reasonably build service centers or train techs, it's just not practical to keep offering that.

It sucks to be stranded right next to a state of the art vehicle charging station that bares the same name of my vehicle

FWIW I absolutely think when they disable supercharging it should send a big you-must-intentionally-dismiss-it message to the cars screen informing you it has happened so it's not a surprise when you go to charge the car.

But Tesla is frankly absolutely terrible at communication, both internally and to its customers, so the fact they don't do this isn't surprising.


FWIW there's some 3rd parties out there who can re-enable supercharging on salvage cars... for sure on older ones at least, dunno how much access they have on newer ones.... and Tesla has suggested they might take legal action against anyone with a banned car supercharging via a hack, but I'm not aware of them doing so to this point.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

they could have shut it off in a way that didn't put my family in danger. This aspect is unacceptable. We have been SC for a year, it's proven to be safe. If they would have reduced our charging speed to 50kw or 20kw. My wife wouldn't have been left in the dark and cold. This is a immoral action. And is outrageous. And very disappointing.

Yes, they PERHAPS could have advised you in advance, BUT:

1. Do they even know you're the owner? After all, the title of this thread is about "REBUILT" titles which suggests a SALVAGE vehicle. For all we know, Tesla has no idea who you are?

2. All the SC'ing you got was purely by accident as Tesla can pull this from any salvage car whenever they get around to it, and now they're doing so.

3. Surely you could have foreseen all this when you purchased a Tesla, a hopefully a HUGE discount, with a Salvage/Rebuilt title, no?

Sorry, but the liability here is just too huge for Tesla to support SC'ing on your Salvage/Rebuilt vehicle. Keep it as a "city" car, or just get a new, non-Salvage/Rebuilt Tesla.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, they PERHAPS could have advised you in advance, BUT:

1. Do they even know you're the owner? After all, the title of this thread is about "REBUILT" titles which suggests a SALVAGE vehicle. For all we know, Tesla has no idea who you are?.

No argument at all on your other 2 points- but they don't need to know who the owner is... when they disable supercharging on a car they send to the car to flip a bit from 1 to 0.... they could at the same time have it display a message on the screen you have to intentionally check you read to clear informing you what just happened.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

No argument at all on your other 2 points- but they don't need to know who the owner is... when they disable supercharging on a car they send to the car to flip a bit from 1 to 0.... they could at the same time have it display a message on the screen you have to intentionally check you read to clear informing you what just happened.

Good point; hadn't thought of that angle.

Even better: advise the owner/driver a few days/weeks in advance via the same avenue so as to preclude strandings like this.

 

[Jonkoehn]

Just need to limp along until the cybertruck is available. Than i can use the sc network again! Note to self: don't buy a salvaged title tesla again. Teslas are amazing cars, but their customers relations could use some improvement. Just hiccups along the way to building a successful automotive company.

 

[ElectricIAC]

2. All the SC'ing you got was purely by accident as Tesla can pull this from any salvage car whenever they get around to it, and now they're doing so.

3. Surely you could have foreseen all this when you purchased a Tesla, a hopefully a HUGE discount, with a Salvage/Rebuilt title, no?

Sorry, but the liability here is just too huge for Tesla to support SC'ing on your Salvage/Rebuilt vehicle. Keep it as a "city" car, or just get a new, non-Salvage/Rebuilt Tesla.

Spoken like a true fanboi/shareholder. Yes let’s just throw good cars away because they’ve committed the mortal sin of being in an accident.

It’s okay. You may get your wish soon once batteries are integrated into the frame outside the skateboard.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Just need to limp along until the cybertruck is available. Than i can use the sc network again! Note to self: don't buy a salvaged title tesla again. Teslas are amazing cars, but their customers relations could use some improvement. Just hiccups along the way to building a successful automotive company.

Or go see rich and friends at EG and wag that middle finger nice and high at Tesla.

 

[Jonkoehn]

Or go see rich and friends at EG and wag that middle finger nice and high at Tesla.

They are east coast. I'm on the west side. Probably not a viable option for me. If there was I way I could turn it back on, I would. Obviously.

 

[ElectricIAC]

They are east coast. I'm on the west side. Probably not a viable option for me. If there was I way I could turn it back on, I would. Obviously.

There may be someone on your side of the country who can do the same.

 

[BritneySpears]

On the contrary, the only thing you've actually claimed was they turned off Tesla supercharging.

Which has...a lot...to do with Tesla supercharging.

You also mention you are GOING to get a chademo adapter to find out if you can DC charge or not.

So your claim your argument is about something you already admitted you haven't even checked doesn't work yet is specious at best.

Here's your post where you admit you don't even have the adapter to find out yet-








So...your argument isn't about superchargers... but it's really totally about superchargers.


Anyway-you're factually wrong.

You don't own the supercharger network- Tesla does.

They're free to deny access to anybody they wish.

They even spell out their salvage vehicle policy- including disabling supercharger access- on their website

Privacy & Legal | Tesla






You seem confused about who owns licensed software. (Hint: it's not you)

Even GM, hardly a software giant, made this point 5 years ago to the US Copyright office-saying car owners "mistakenly conflate ownership of a vehicle with ownership of the underlying computer software in the vehicle"

Why all the negativity against an owner? You're either a shill for Tesla or you're just jealous that I paid a lot less money for the same car you paid a lot more for. Or it's something else. Feel free to explain yourself but the argument that you support Tesla protecting themselves and me against me is strangely passive aggressive.

So to those that have animosity to restorers like me you should consider I have the time, experience, credentials, tools, and space to do the kind of repair I did on my car. Sourcing out all the work I did would have been $24k, material not included. It's a lot of labor, but it's what I like to do in my spare time. The car was inspected, titled, and registered by the state of Ca. If you have a problem with salvage cars on the road and think Tesla should too then you should bring it up with the state you live in because they've fully supported the rebuild, restoration, and re-registering of cars declared a loss by insurance companies. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Regarding owning the software this is an on-going right to repair effort in many states. I see owning software like owning my fender. I can dent, repaint, kick in, drill a hole in my fender as I please. It's my fender. I however don't own the tool and dye that made it, I don't own the material specification, I don't own the process spec, the quality control spec, and I don't own the drawing spec. That's the nature of software. I don't own the source code and don't feel I should either. But turning off features, critical features like being able to charge when on long trips, should not be allowed to be turned off by someone other than the owner, if at all. Again, it's not supercharging that I want back, it's the right to not have someone else tamper with my car that I want to uphold my right to.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Spoken like a true fanboi/shareholder. Yes let’s just throw good cars away because they’ve committed the mortal sin of being in an accident.

It’s okay. You may get your wish soon once batteries are integrated into the frame outside the skateboard.

You wrote:

. . . just throw good cars away because they’ve committed the mortal sin of being in an accident.

Let's be perfectly clear here. These are NOT "good cars." These are cars that have been totalled, they have been potentially "fixed" by people that have never been to a Tesla technician class and are making repairs on an ad hoc, and cheapest-route-possible method. Even if YOU, personally, would not have done that, Tesla has ZERO way of knowing the competence of the repairs. ZERO.

When one of these blows up, and this is a likely outcome eventually, after a shoddy "repair" by someone working with used butter knives in his garage (yes, I'm thinking of you Rich Rebuilds), the PR nightmare will be Tesla's, not that of the unknown person working in garage who will likely sue Tesla for allowing him to Supercharge his dangerous car. It's a lose-lose scenario and I can easily understand why Tesla has to be very, very careful.

I'm sorry that you can't understand this.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Sure....But let’s say that safety is the only motive....If they’re going to close off the repair and reuse avenues then why even let salvage cars get out into the market for spare parts and rebuild/rescue?

Certainly now they could afford to buy back every last one of them. Yknow, like if was all about safety. (Let’s be real, it isn’t — Nothing hollers like the dollars)